GT or Super? Which one is the best?

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GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:57 pm

All right now folks, Dragon Ball Super officially have the same episode count as Dragon Ball GT, even with an arc on-going, I think now it's pretty fair to compare, which one series is the best in your opinion?
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:05 am

I can't commit myself to a definitive answer, but my immediate answer has to be DBS. On top of GT's many other problems (which have been brought up time after time, so I won't go into it here), it's painfully boring.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Fionordequester » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:14 am

Super, by far. I mean, there are the odd times where it's writing is manipulative/jumps around too much/leaves too much off-screen, but, on the whole? It actually does a really good job of capturing that Toriyama spirit we all know and love; and it even does it in a way that addresses a few of his flaws (over-centralization on one character, lack of teamwork fights, lack of unique techniques, etc.).

GT...feels like it was written by a fanfic writer that somehow got promoted to show handler. It's pacing is all over the place, there's FAR too much focus on Goku, Pan, and Giru, the fight choreography tries too hard to be distinct from DBZ, Goku's always repeating the same catchphrases ("I'm starting to get excited!), it's got creepy moments like Pan getting felt up by Luud for an entire episode...and the list goes on. Just look at Herms's reviews of DBGT; you'll see a show that commits more amateur-level mistakes than you can shake a stick at.

In other words, Super may not always have great writing, but it's writers seem to at least have the basics down. GT...doesn't. I'm sure it's writers tried hard, but...it just didn't seem like they had enough experience to execute their ideas.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:16 am

For the moment Super, just because I like 2 of the 4 arcs of Super (Universe 6 and Future Trunks) while I only like 1 out of the 4 arcs of GT (Baby Arc).
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:16 am

I'm not really sure. Unlike most people, I actually really like GT, but with how inconsistent both series are... Eh, I'll have to mull it over. Maybe see how this current arc ends.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Cipher » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:19 am

I was thinking of creating a topic on preference/pros and cons between the various sequels and endings we've gotten soon, but since this is here, and since it seems a little more execution-focused than simply talking about what each take offers in terms of plot points and character arcs:

GT.

Had it spun its wheels a bit longer, I might feel differently. And maybe, maybe, Super could pull something together with its ending that would make everything click for me. But right now, even if it's somewhat due to its truncated run, GT feels like a fine little epilogue that pushed everyone forward into one last chapter we could look in on. It offered a new, if profoundly un-Toriyama-styled take on the ending, and as a whole feels creatively justified. Which is weird, because it was a completely commercially motivated sequel, but that's how it ended up. Its highs aren't as high in terms of action, but it's also the better directed of the two on average, and by quite a bit. At least that's been the case as of the time of this post, with 64 episodes apiece.

Super has been fun (sometimes) to watch on a weekly basis, but it's equal parts frustrating. That's true both in terms of lackluster scripting and directing, which have thus far been its normal mode, but also on a broader narrative level, where we're now spending time in a serialized, ongoing story with characters whose arcs have been locked in by the Boo arc and manga epilogue for twenty years. And the more dire the stakes of an individual arc get, the more attention I pay to the fact that I don't care about these unchanging characters. Character growth, physical aging, and action all intertwined during the original run, and helped provide thrust not only for the series as a whole, but for its individual arcs; a climactic struggle with a villain was more than just colors and sounds; it also pushed the characters involved forward into the next chapter of their characterization and lives. That was always one of Dragon Ball's major appeals. It's doubly frustrating as some uniquely subversive Toriyama ideas, at least as far as world-building, are being wasted on material that feels more commercially transparent than any run of fiction we've ever gotten in the series—in terms of keeping characters stagnant and iconic, and in terms of the way it handles episodic characterization—and so counter-intuitive to the move-forward-or-literally-quit attitude that had Toriyama bickering with editors over whether he could age Goku into an adult. Some of the fun is there, but the charm is at least halved. I'd feel differently if we were continuing to simply get one-off movies along the lines of Battle of Gods and Resurrection "F". Those were fun enough, especially with Toriyama actually handling the scripts, but long-form storytelling carries the burden of change, and Super, in its current form, seems determined not to offer it.

In another universe in which Toriyama were personally handling these plots during the original run of the manga, and the Boo arc were written to be less final, I think they could play out perfectly well. But that's only another thought to nag at the viewer.

This wound up being more negative toward Super than positive toward GT, but that's partially because I've always thought GT fit the series perfectly well, as an extra ending or epilogue, and one with a real aesthetic and thematic identity (even if its privileging aesthetics over the most rigid in-universe logic has caught the ire of many fans). I like it; I've written about it here before. Super's twenty years too late, too long, and too interested in fitting into a chapter of the series that was literally closed for me not to question its necessity, on top of its execution—which we know has been troubled—at least a little more. GT was at least something interesting. Super has been colors and sounds.

Take a shot every time the phrase "good ideas but bad execution" comes up in this thread.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:25 am

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:For the moment Super, just because I like 2 of the 4 arcs of Super (Universe 6 and Future Trunks) while I only like 1 out of the 4 arcs of GT (Baby Arc).
Can I ask why you like the Baby Arc? Like, what specifically draws you? Even though it has interesting lore behind it, the Baby Arc was the least interesting section of GT for me.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:30 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Can I ask why you like the Baby Arc? Like, what specifically draws you? Even though it has interesting lore behind it, the Baby Arc was the least interesting section of GT for me.
I like it mostly for the lore and for the decent execution of its concept. I could have put the Shadow Dragons instead of the Baby Arc but the waste of the cast to fight the Dragons and the horrible execution of the most brillant idea to ever grace the franchise put that arc out of my liking.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:39 am

I haven't seen any more of Super than clips here and there, and I do like GT, but I'm willing to bet that Super is probably better. Super is kind of unconstrained by the binds that GT had to work with -- namely the end of Z. GT had to write around all of the Z Warrior having retired and grown old, Oob, Pan, etc. GT had to work around an older Goten who was interested in girls, Trunks becoming more settled down (in terms of training), etc. This is all laid out in the last episode of Z. Also, GT came too soon and could never live up to Z, which saw a lot of rushed decisions probably because the pressure was on. It seems like Super can kind of do anything it wants, which probably lends itself to a more creative series. I haven't heard anything particularly bad about Super; in my personal opinion, it is visually horrendous for what it should be. Even if the story isn't epic beyond belief, the thirst for Dragon Ball content has grown so much, that it's easier to get excited for it. I'll see if I'm right or wrong if/when Funimation finally gets some Blu-rays out.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:50 am

Super by a wide margin.
GT is all round boring; boring characters, boring stories, boring music etc.
Especially the beginning before they come across Baby, it was like a kiddie version of DB. Yeah the franchise is for kids, but at that point it felt like GT was geared towards even younger kids, like from ages 3 to 6.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:20 am

Super for me. The Black Star Dragon Ball Hunt and Super 17 saga sucked while the Bebi and Shadow Dragon arcs are okay. Future Trunks saga is better than everything in GT in my opinion.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by precita » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:31 am

Its kind of ironic that in both GT and Super they both make the mistake of focusing too heavily on Goku over all the other characters, something DBZ never had a problem with.

Super and GT both have only Goku and Vegeta reach the new Super Saiyan forms (SSJ4 or Blue), they both leave Gohan to the wayside, they both use an adult version of Trunks as the secondary protagonist (Kid Trunks as an adult or Future Trunks), and they both deal with outer space/universe stories.

Only thing Super hasn't done is put emphasis on Pan yet, but I get the feeling that's coming eventually.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:35 am

Vegeta didn't have a major in GT until the Shadow Dragon arc, he was mostly use as a plot device for Bebi and a jobber against Super 17. Trunks has a bigger role in Super if you ask me compare to GT where he didn't do much in my opinion.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by sintzu » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:37 am

Art and Animation : GT

Writing : GT's characters for the most part acted in character while in Super that's not really the case so this goes to GT.

Music : Super's soundtrack has greatly improved and I like its opening and 1st 5 endings so Super wins this.

Basic plots : I'd give them a tie if GT didn't have that terrable space adventure so Super wins this as well.

Plot execution : Super's execution might not be perfect (Pilaf in the current arc for example) but it's still miles ahead of GT's.

Character usage : Super has Goku, Vegeta (most importantly) and currently Trunks while GT only had Goku and in situations that would've been perfect to have otheres such as the fight against the dragons so this goes to Super.

Fights : Super, GT's fights aren't as bad as some say but they're not on Z's level and Super has produced some GREAT fight scenes such as Goku's final with Beerus, Vegeta aginst Freeza, Goku against Hit & multiple ones in the current arc.

Villans : Beerus, Hit & Zamasu so this goes to Super again.

Comedy : Beerus slamming his head on the table when Zeno called is funnier than anything in GT and Champa and Vados' interactions was pure gold.

Character designs : GT has Ssj4, Baby Vegeta, Super 17 & Omega Shenron while Super has Beerus, Whis, Hit, Zamasu & Goku and Vegeta's RF outfits so Super wins this.

Pacing : I tried rewatching GT recently and just couldn't because of how slow it was.

Based on the above it seems like Super is the better sequel.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Boo Machine » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:50 am

Super. It can be frustrating sometimes but I choose super for one main reason. It's fun to watch. I never cared how dumb Dragonball GT got because Dragonball in general can get pretty dumb, but with super I am entertained by what I'm watching and have seen a lot of it multiple times with no issues.

Where with GT I have to fight to even stay awake. It just feels like there is a lot of points where everything is SO slow and I end up shifting my attention to something else.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by mecha3000 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:54 am

Well, even though Super is still ongoing - I guess the general consensus is that it is superior than GT, but I don't see it that way honestly. Both series have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to concepts, in particular.

Dragon Ball GT: GT EXPANDS on concepts ALREADY introduced in Dragon Ball and Z like: only using the established but older cast (including the newly introduced Pan and Uub), the Tsufurians/Tuffles from Eradicate for the Bebi/Baby arc, Super 17 being an evolution of the already established 17 character and a rehash of the Fusion Reborn plot (with already established villains returning), and then the Shadow Dragons fulfilling Elder Kai's warning about the dragon balls

Dragon Ball Super: Super INTRODUCES concepts to the Dragon Ball franchise like (not really counting the movie retelling arcs): new Gods, different universes with Universe 6, new characters like Cabba and Hit, and a new villain with Zamasu - but still bringing original concepts and characters back to the franchise such as the Mafuba technique and Future Trunks (something I've always said they should do so that Dragon Ball can take advantage of its popular characters similar to franchises like Marvel and Star Wars)

MY FINAL THOUGHTS: Honestly, I can't say too much about which one is better because I haven't seen all of Super (I've seen basically every episode up to the U6 tournament and Future Trunks arcs, despite still tuning in to see the highlights and always staying informed about what went on in all the episodes) - But I will say that Dragon Ball Super isn't the series I wanted when it came to Dragon Ball (However, it might've been the one we needed). I wanted a series that takes place AFTER the manga ended (like Resurrection 'F' promised) and centers on characters like Uub, Pan, Goten, Trunks, and maybe even Bra. This is why I prefer GT when it comes to timeline placement (but it failed me when it came to centering on those characters). But I guess the appeal of DB Super is that all our favorite characters return in the Z era so like Toriyama said: The characters are still in their prime. So, for now - I will give Super a slight edge when it comes to story and concepts (especially refurbishing original concepts and making them new again, like how the Mafuba technique has become such a big thing again when many Z fans probably hadn't ever heard of it). I just really appreciate Toriyama going back and bringing his old concepts back into modern Dragon Ball in a cool way.

Long story short, I'm not going to say which one is the best because I don't know yet and I don't think about it like that. As for which might be better for me currently: DRAGON BALL SUPER (for its story and concepts). But unlike most fans, I would argue to put GT up there because I did enjoy the whole "future world" element of it along with seeing all the characters all grown up and the Baby Saga was pretty awesome (really felt Empire Strikes Back kind of like Frieza). Still, GT is guilty of rehashing Z tropes (like the Goku Time thing and Goku always having to arrive to save the day, even though Resurrection 'F' Arc did this too)

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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Fishman » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:17 am

Both are bad, sometimes for the same reasons, other times for very different reasons. GT is just significantly less bad than Super so far, and since GT isn't making new episodes, it can't get any worse.

If we're lucky they'll take the opportunity to end it on a "high" note with the current arc.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by sintzu » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:18 am

Fishman wrote:If we're lucky they'll take the opportunity to end it on a "high" note with the current arc.
They already said the next arc will be announced in December.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Cipher » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:08 am

I want to add onto my earlier post to say that, as far as what they add to the narrative, I have to further separate Battle of Gods from Super, or at least clarify that my issues with the latter don't apply to the movie.

As a stand-alone extra chapter, I think it really complements the manga's ending, and actually does add something to the universe and characters thematically. It's just a simple tale along the lines of, "Between Boo and the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, a god of destruction arrived, made Goku accept defeat, and then told him the world was much larger and full of stronger people than he'd imagined." That's ... honestly really nice, and reinforces the ideas of both torch-passing and continuous adventure present at the end of the manga. Oob may not represent the absolute greatest opponent in the multiverse, but he's what Goku has, and maybe one day he'll explore all the possibilities that Whis and Beerus hint at.

But there's a big difference between that and "And then Goku and Vegeta went onto explore the rest of that world and become some of the strongest people in it in the span of two years while not changing as characters (because their arcs are already completed within the Boo arc and 28th Tenkaichi Budokai) and you get to watch every moment."

EDIT--

Resurrection "F" using it as a springboard to set more stories in its immediate aftermath within the ten-year timeskip is the start of the problem, but again, I could take a handful of fun, one-off films, and there's the possibility they could make one larger "gods" arc that's similarly complementary. Super serializing that approach for an indeterminate number of arcs (possibly as many as fan interest will sustain?) is where it becomes unbearable, especially with Toei's execution.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super? Which one is the best?

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:30 am

Don't get where the "good ideas" are in GT or how it fits better with the series. GT has Gokuu as a kid again, reused plot points from Dragonball, has ki spamming fights and makes everyone but Gokuu weak and lame. There are a few good things. Baby was good as a character with a new style of attack and personal motivation, and his arc has a lot of interesting moments. SSJ4 looks neat and Pan I liked more than most do.

But Super, not GT, is the one with fresh ideas. The only original villain in GT was Baby, Super has Beerus, Whis, Champa, Vados, and now Zamasu and himself. It also expands the Dragonball mythos way more than GT, which only added the dark star balls. There's also more choreography and strategy in the actual fights in Super.

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