Is Tenshinhan considered human? Tenshinhan vs Kuririn

[Casual Matt]

Other than this one Daizenshuu entry, is there any reason to think he's not human?

Why look for a second reason?

Well, as good a resource as the Daizenshuu is, it isn't the original manga, and doesn't contain 'solid fact end of story', IMHO.

As such, more insight to Tenshinhan's ancestry would make things more clear.

By the way. Doesn't it say something in "Tien's" profile on "Budokai Tenkaichi"? I'd check but I don't have the game.

[Olivier Hague]

Well, as good a resource as the Daizenshuu is, it isn't the original manga, and doesn't contain 'solid fact end of story', IMHO.

Again, that would be a very odd mistake.
I mean... You think they wrote that whole thing about these new aliens because they were thinking of another series altogether? Wow. That would be just a tiny bit unprofessional.

[desirecampbell]

Again, that would be a very odd mistake.
I mean... You think they wrote that whole thing about these new aliens because they were thinking of another series altogether? Wow. That would be just a tiny bit unprofessional.

You keep acting like it's impossible that the daizenshuu could be wrong about anything. Will you at least admit that the fact that there is so little evidence that it should at least be looked into? Your unwillingness to discuss the matter reminds me of a certain 'Superstar'...

[Casual Matt]

Well, as good a resource as the Daizenshuu is, it isn't the original manga, and doesn't contain 'solid fact end of story', IMHO.

Again, that would be a very odd mistake.
I mean... You think they wrote that whole thing about these new aliens because they were thinking of another series altogether? Wow. That would be just a tiny bit unprofessional.

I'm just saying, though the Daizenshuu are great, Dragon Ball is somewhat known for having unreliable information come from sources that aren't the manga.

I agree that in all likelihood, the Daizenshuu is accurate, but it would be nice if there was secondary confirmation instead of the information coming from just one source.

[kinoko]

Man, I would love to hear from Mr. Toriyama himself - in some form, book, or other - that Tenshinhan is or isn't human. That would be undeniable canon, wouldn't it? ^^

But I guess until then I'll keep considering Tenshinhan a human. I like the connections to Hinduism - the third eye and four arms; I'd really love to look into that..

And Drunken Master, I like the points/evidence you've brought up! And how can we to take into account Yamcha saying in the manga that Kuririn is the strongest, "of us humans anyway?" As canon? Toriyama forgetting about Tenshinhan and his set-up as a character? The whole "strongest human" debate makes my head spin, sometimes..
(But if I had to go with something right this second, it would be the fact that it is so in Tenshinhan's nature to keep.on.training (and one thing I absolutely love about him. ^_^) It would make sense that this alone would cause him to "surpass" Kuririn as the strongest human.)

Bah... but strength is so relative...

As for mistakes in the Daizenshuu, I believe they can happen. Retreating once again to the fact that it lists Chaozu's height at 138 cm (appx. 4.5 feet) ...which is pretty dang hard to believe.

So concludes my not-so-helpful-at-advancing-the-topic response.. -_-;;;

[Godo]

Well, as good a resource as the Daizenshuu is, it isn't the original manga, and doesn't contain 'solid fact end of story', IMHO.

Again, that would be a very odd mistake.
I mean... You think they wrote that whole thing about these new aliens because they were thinking of another series altogether? Wow. That would be just a tiny bit unprofessional.

You seem to forget that they are made by people, that can make mistakes, not a god. Just read a normal book. There will be errors.

[Olivier Hague]

You keep acting like it's impossible that the daizenshuu could be wrong about anything.

No, I'm just saying that it's damn unlikely it is, here.
You keep saying it's wrong, but I don't see you coming up with a likely scenario explaining how they managed to make a mistake like that.

Your unwillingness to discuss the matter reminds me of a certain 'Superstar'...

Please.
I'm willing to discuss it. I'm explaining why I think it doesn't make sense to just disregard that extra bit of info as a mere "mistake".
You, on the other hand, are pretty quick to assume it is, and don't offer any kind of argument to support your point of view, apart from "it's not said in the manga".
So what if it's not said in the manga? The world map isn't in the manga either. Is it wrong?

I agree that in all likelihood, the Daizenshuu is accurate, but it would be nice if there was secondary confirmation instead of the information coming from just one source.

I believe they say the same thing in some video game... "Dragon Ball Z Sparking!", maybe?

You seem to forget that they are made by people, that can make mistakes, not a god.

Again, saying that Tenshinhan has strange powers because he descends from aliens called "the three-eyed tribe" can't exactly be considered a typo. Or it would be an impressive one.

[Godo]

You seem to forget that they are made by people, that can make mistakes, not a god.

Again, saying that Tenshinhan has strange powers because he descends from aliens called "the three-eyed tribe" can't exactly be considered a typo. Or it would be an impressive one.

Not a typo, a factual error more exactly. There is a difference them between. Now I ain't saying that the Tienshinhan thing is a factual error (I don't care anymore), but I don't believe in the flawlessness of the Daizenshuu.

[Olivier Hague]

Not a typo, a factual error more exactly.

It still is pretty impressive to make up the whole "three-eyed tribe" thing by mistake. How do you pull that one off?

I don't believe in the flawlessness of the Daizenshuu.

Neither do I. 'Just saying that the extra bit of info we're talking about being a "mistake" just seems a lot more unlikely to me than it being just that: an extra bit of info.

[desirecampbell]

Please.
I'm willing to discuss it. I'm explaining why I think it doesn't make sense to just disregard that extra bit of info as a mere "mistake".
You, on the other hand, are pretty quick to assume it is, and don't offer any kind of argument to support your point of view, apart from "it's not said in the manga".
So what if it's not said in the manga? The world map isn't in the manga either. Is it wrong?

I have given reasons, you, like Superstar, ignore them.

The difference between Goku, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan is that Toriyama made it very clear that Goku and Piccolo were aliens. There was never any mention that Tenshinhan might be anything except human.

Other than this one Daizenshuu entry, is there any reason to think he's not human? The third eye could simply be a nod to Journey to the west. It's a little physical quirk - it doesn't mean he's not human. Krillin (or whatever his name's supposed to be ) has no nose, and Choatzu may or may not be wearing makeup - they're still human. The extra arms and clone techniques are not indicative of alien ancestry - they're just techniques noone's seen before.

Toriyama never shied away from calling characters aliens, why would he neglect to mention this about Tien? I'm not saying it's impossible that he's an alien, I'm just saying it seems rather strange that such an important piece of information was never divulged in the manga.

And there's no reason to believe that the world-map is wrong. It's not changing any of the assumptions taken during the series. There is a landmass of some kind, West City is in the west, East City is in the east... nothing is brought up that we didn't know before. The 'three eyed tribe' entry changes Tien from human, to an alien (a rather large deal in Dragonball).

Again, saying that Tenshinhan has strange powers because he descends from aliens called "the three-eyed tribe" can't exactly be considered a typo. Or it would be an impressive one.

You, like Superstar, keep bringing up this 'typo' thing. You've done it half a dozen times already - it's NOT a typo, you're only saying this to bolster your position through misdirection - just like Superstar.

It's not a typo - it's a mistake. whoever was put in charge of writing it got it wrong. You continuously disregard this concept. This piece of information that is wildly different from what is assumed throughout the series. Why is it that you refuse to accept that a person could make a mistake? That they could have been told to put in some information about Tien, had non, and made some shit up?

[kinoko]

That they could have been told to put in some information about Tenshinhan, had non, and made some shit up?

Perhaps they read too much fanfiction..? XP

So as to not make this a one-liner: I think both Olivier Hague and desirecampbell have valid opinions.

Oh, and by the by, Shiva (from Hinduism) is a god with four arms and "represents darkness." "He is often portrayed as an "angry god" and the god of destruction. Often Lord Shiva destroys negative presences such as evil, ignorance, and death." (source: here!)

[Mr.Piccolo]

Woohoo, I think the my thread DragonBall Unknowns Vol.1 had some sort of influence on this, so hooray for me !

Anyway I would just like to state a few things. There are many strange techniques in the db universe. So more unique than others. Some that can only be done by certain people or races(or whatever it is in the dragon world)

In dragonball, Tenshinhan introduced a couple of interesting moves including that whole four arms trick. That, by no means, indicates that he is an alien. Aside from certain traits within the races of the dragon world, I think almost any technique can be done by anybody as shown by who else by Tenshinhan! Another example of this is Majin Buu but he can basically do anything so I won't get into that. Let's just say the first episode of dbz you saw was when Goku explains the teleport technique. If you read online that the people of Yardat(sp) knew the move and thats what they are known for and then you saw Goku doing it, your saying it as if Goku has to be of that race because he is doing moves earthling typically wouldn't do (I know Son is a saiyan but I hope you get my point).

What else... Oh yeah, Tenshinhan is definately stronger than Krillin. From DB they weren't even close. In the saiyan arc they trained together and when Ten died, he received training from Kaio-Sama, NO, King Kai . Yes, Krillin got a "massive" power up, but then what? During the Garlic Jr Arc to the Trunks Saga, Ten continued to train. Once they heard about the Androids, Krillin trained with Roshi or something(?). In the anime, Ten put up a better fight against the Cell Jrs. Krillin "retired" after the cell game while Ten trained. Ten continued to train until they didn't even feel like showing him in the series, heh heh. What more can I say, Ten is the strongest human!!! (If you don't count No.18 )

[Olivier Hague]

Toriyama never shied away from calling characters aliens, why would he neglect to mention this about Tenshinhan?

Maybe because he decided that after the manga ended?
Maybe because he never found a way to put that in the story (Tenshinhan was such a major character, after Piccolo Daimaô)?
In Japan, they call that an "ura settei", and it's not unusual at all.

I'm not saying it's impossible that he's an alien, I'm just saying it seems rather strange that such an important piece of information was never divulged in the manga.

But it's not an important piece of information. It never mattered, and the manga is over. It's just that: an extra bit of info. Like, say, Yamcha's age would be. Just because it's not mentioned in the manga doesn't mean we should just assume it's wrong when given by an official guide supervised by Toriyama.

The 'three eyed tribe' entry changes Tenshinhan from human, to an alien (a rather large deal in Dragonball).

Or rather, from "pure" Earthling to descendant of aliens.
And in a world where the king is a dog, and where god is an alien (but isn't aware of it!), is it really that large a deal? Especially if Tenshinhan himself doesn't even know/learn about it?

You, like Superstar, keep bringing up this 'typo' thing. You've done it half a dozen times already - it's NOT a typo, you're only saying this to bolster your position through misdirection - just like Superstar.

Saying "just like Superstar" over and over again really shows how you're not one to bolster your position through misdirection. Is that how you intend to convince people? By associating me with a guy that got banned? Classy.

And yeah, I keep repeating "typo", because you keep comparing that "mistake" to typos: Chaoz's height, Raditz's power, the kind of stuff that makes you say that the Daizenshû shouldn't be trusted.
Typos happen. Rather easily. So it's understandable. But yeah, that one isn't a typo. And that just might be my point.

It's not a typo - it's a mistake. whoever was put in charge of writing it got it wrong.

Oh, so you know it's wrong? Did Toriyama tell you that the last time you had lunch with him? Surely you have some insider knowledge.

This piece of information that is wildly different from what is assumed throughout the series.

"That's not what I was assuming! So I'll assume it's wrong!"
Brilliance.

Why is it that you refuse to accept that a person could make a mistake?

Not "a mistake". "A mistake like that".
And I don't refuse to accept it, I'm just saying that I find it quite hard to imagine. How does one make a mistake like that? You claim that he got it wrong... but how? Can you imagine such a scenario? If so, please tell me how it goes.

I don't know whether it's right and wrong (Toriyama canceled my lunch with him, so I guess I'm out of luck)... I'm just saying that:
1) Tenshinhan having such an "ura settei"
sounds a hell of a lot more likely than
2) Somebody at Shûeisha coming up with the idea that Tenshinhan descended from aliens and the name of their species, just like that, and getting his BS printed in a book supervised by a bunch of people including the author, and then mentioned again in a video game years later.

But I guess that's just me, as they say.

Now, if there's one thing I do know for sure, it's that you're just assuming the Daizenshû is wrong. You're saying that you know when you really don't. And that doesn't bode well for this discussion.

That they could have been told to put in some information about Tenshinhan, had non, and made some shit up?

Oh, come on... Yeah, I'm sure they had absolutely nothing to say about Tenshinhan, as compared to, say, Woolong.
Well, if you think that's how things went, you won't be surprised to learn that they also tell the readers how Chaoz was produced by cloning mutant sheeps and enraged bats in an experiment led by Dr. Gero's long-lost twin brother (only not really). They just had to put something, you know.

Something tells me you haven't read that book. Am I wrong?

[Drunken Master]

By the way. Doesn't it say something in "Tien's" profile on "Budokai Tenkaichi"? I'd check but I don't have the game.

Yes, the whole quote is in my post. The Daizenshuu and Sparking! both say that Tenshinhan has non-human ancestors. That doesn't mean he's a complete alien, but it means he shouldn't be counted as 100% human. As for his techniques...You can say anybody else can do them, but no...I don't buy it. Tenshinhan has to be and is shown to be the only one ever to manipulate his body like that. Now, I'm going to scan the faces of those who watched him grow the arms and multiply. Those are unique techniques and traits to him, which is even stated by the Daizenshuu and Sparking!

[Godo]

Not a typo, a factual error more exactly.

It still is pretty impressive to make up the whole "three-eyed tribe" thing by mistake. How do you pull that one off?

I don't believe in the flawlessness of the Daizenshuu.

Neither do I. 'Just saying that the extra bit of info we're talking about being a "mistake" just seems a lot more unlikely to me than it being just that: an extra bit of info.

I end my part of this discussion with this post.

Factual error does not mean that it was a mistake. Maybe the guy that wrote it didn't know that much like the others? Maybe he just were some kind of idiot or something?
You also seem to like the word "assumption". If we are assuming, then you are too. You are then assuming that it most likely wasn't an error. Or are you saying that it really isn't an error? In that case, how did your lunch with Mr. Toriyama go?

[Drunken Master]

Sparking! Quote- (You have to admit, the people who wrote the information in that game are dead on with everything else)

"As a descendant of aliens, his body possesses unique characteristics which he demonstrates often in the Dragon Ball series, such as the ability to split himself into four seperate fighters or sprout extra arms from his shoulders- unthinkable behavior as far as normal Earthlings are concerned."

Damnit, someone uninstalled my scanner software. I'm pissed.

[Olivier Hague]

Factual error does not mean that it was a mistake.

It doesn't?

You also seem to like the word "assumption". If we are assuming, then you are too. You are then assuming that it most likely wasn't an error.

It's called "thinking", actually.

Or are you saying that it really isn't an error?

Now, that would be assuming. And no.

[Drunken Master]

Here's the reactions of everyone, plus some unscanned quotes. This is to counter his abilites being 'normal', or 'human' and the huge assumption that these techniques could be used by anyone. This is simply not true.

After Tenshinhan's Four Bodies technique -
Announcer: H-How bizarre...there appear to be four Tenshinhans!!! How can this be...?!!!
Kuririn: "I've never seen anything like this...! Tenshinhan is beyond belief...!!!"

After Tenshinhan's Shiyo-ken -
Announcer: H-How did he do this...?! It's unb-believable...!! Is it sleight of hand...?!!!

Notice everyone's facial reactions. Even the animal people.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f219/ ... bodies.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f219/ ... urarms.jpg

Yeah, yeah, I mixed up the file names. I'm too lazy to fix them.

Okay, first off, the Shiyo-ken. The announcer must have seen many weird and unsual things in his time, right? Then why is he freaking so much? It's because what Tenshinhan just did is NOT normal. The announcer has seen giant monkeys and wolfmen as well. Also, Roshi in all his prime hasn't seen anything like this. He's old, yet he's freaked out. Look at the man's face! He's seen demons before!

Secondly, the four bodies technique. Same thing with the announcer guy. He freaks out. The main thing here is Piccolo, who was a demon at this point seems shocked. Piccolo shocked? Is this normal? Umm...no. Also, does anybody know what Shishin means? Tenshinhan calls this the Shishin "Four Bodies" move.

[Gouki*]

Don't Piccolo and Kuririn both use the Shishin no Ken (the multiple bodies technique)? Admittedly, with only three bodies, but they do use it.

[Drunken Master]

No, not only is that not his technique (as in the 12 eyes technique, meaning only he could do it) but that is also filler.