Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:12 am

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:54 am
ABED wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:45 am
Lots of people seem to want it everything to fit together and it's not just DB. Any franchise seemingly must all connect.
For me I love when things are connected because it give me a feel of reality, like for example a Genealogy Tree that connect you to other person and even Royalty or Historical event that lead to other Historical event. For example without 1870 war no first world war and then no world war 2 lol
There's fitting together and then there's being forced together. Your analogy is odd and I don't think applies.
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by KBABZ » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:09 am

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:54 am
For me I love when things are connected because it give me a feel of reality, like for example a Genealogy Tree that connect you to other person and even Royalty or Historical event that lead to other Historical event. For example without 1870 war no first world war and then no world war 2 lol
GT doesn't have to become canon in order for that to happen. Avengers: Endgame didn't have to make the Raimi films canon in order to feel like it was touching upon an extensive amount of history.

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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:03 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:09 am
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:54 am
For me I love when things are connected because it give me a feel of reality, like for example a Genealogy Tree that connect you to other person and even Royalty or Historical event that lead to other Historical event. For example without 1870 war no first world war and then no world war 2 lol
GT doesn't have to become canon in order for that to happen. Avengers: Endgame didn't have to make the Raimi films canon in order to feel like it was touching upon an extensive amount of history.
I would have loved that because Multiverse thingy is my jam
ABED wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:12 am
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:54 am
ABED wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:45 am
Lots of people seem to want it everything to fit together and it's not just DB. Any franchise seemingly must all connect.
For me I love when things are connected because it give me a feel of reality, like for example a Genealogy Tree that connect you to other person and even Royalty or Historical event that lead to other Historical event. For example without 1870 war no first world war and then no world war 2 lol
There's fitting together and then there's being forced together. Your analogy is odd and I don't think applies.
I mean it's a personnal taste for me I love universe where things are complicate and you have to drive deeper into the lore, like for example I love to see the Family Tree of the Targaryan see how everything connects or another example I love to see the multiverse of TMNT and where was the split of each universe that becomes its own thing. I love also for Dragon Ball to dig and think hard about Saiyan biology how the Cells S trigger biologically the Super Saiyan does that connect to the Oozaru too ?

For me the more everything fits together the more I enjoy it because when you takes several step back you can see a beautiful Canvas. ♥

So if somehow Toei one day clarify where GT is in all this mess that is the Dragon Ball Franchise lore and what was the point of split I WOULD BE HAPPY ♥
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:18 pm

Story is what matters, not whether every single incarnation of TMNT connects. It doesn't make it richer, it makes it all fan service-y and convoluted.
I love also for Dragon Ball to dig and think hard about Saiyan biology how the Cells S trigger biologically the Super Saiyan does that connect to the Oozaru too ?
Lore is boring, so no! That stuff has been talked about to death. It has no meaning for the story and it has been long since any of that mattered.

GT exists, so why does it matter if it's thrown out of continuity?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:36 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:18 pm
Story is what matters, not whether every single incarnation of TMNT connects. It doesn't make it richer, it makes it all fan service-y and convoluted.
I love also for Dragon Ball to dig and think hard about Saiyan biology how the Cells S trigger biologically the Super Saiyan does that connect to the Oozaru too ?
Lore is boring, so no! That stuff has been talked about to death. It has no meaning for the story and it has been long since any of that mattered.

GT exists, so why does it matter if it's thrown out of continuity?
Well when you story matters I will never disagree with that but FOR ME I love stories that have a DEEP lore behind because I love Stories that carry HEAVY LORE it's exhilarating for me. For TMNT though they did show us in some crossover event that there is a TMNT Multiverse and that the Krang Universe is what's connect them kinda. Like the Krang Universe is some sort of hub between different Universe.

GT can connect to the main continuity in the same way as the TMNT Universe.

Imagine something like this when Toriyama created Dragon Ball the original 42/34 volumes (depend on your version) here you have the original Universe then you have the anime, here this universe is spawned from the original. Also let's not forget about Jaco The Galactic Patrolman that come into play and happen before the manga and here is canon to the manga that we 100% are sure.

For the manga that do this:

Jaco The Galactic Patrolman > Dragon Ball (all of that manga)

For the anime that do this:

Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball GT

So I this point we have already two Universe in the same Megaverse bubble (Manga and Anime sharing the same bubble)

Then arrive Dragon Ball Kai and Dragon Ball Super that I think we can safely pack together so we have a third Universe spawned from the original that give us.

Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Kai > Dragon Ball Super

But let's not forget Dragon Ball Online which also evolved into Xenoverse. So one new universe.

Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball Online > Dragon Ball Xenoverse

At this point we have already four Universe sharing the same bubble. Heck Five if you want to make two version of Dragon Ball Super (Anime & Manga) The manga being the follow up of the original manga.

Jaco The Galactic Patrolman > Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Super

And you can do this also for the movies that follow the same path up to the point of their convergence stories. For example the Tullece movie happen here because Goku vanquich Vegeta and Nappa and saved his friends after this movie we can assume that the movie of Slug happen as well as the Dr Uiro movie at least those three movie can be pack together because Goku show up early to fight Vegeta and saved his friend. It's like a Tree.

You need to widen your perspective and see the greater picture like a Canvas. And I didn't include Dragon Ball Legends or Dragon Ball FighterZ that have their own story as well they are working the same way. Well for me at least it's fascinating ♥ :D I love study a work of art this way ♥
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:48 am

Plenty of shows have crossovers even if it doesn't make sense. They do it because it's fun and don't bend over backwards to make it all count. Why the hell does it all need to connect?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:30 am

ABED wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:48 am
Plenty of shows have crossovers even if it doesn't make sense. They do it because it's fun and don't bend over backwards to make it all count. Why the hell does it all need to connect?
BECAUSE ITS FUN ! 8)
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:32 am

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:30 am
ABED wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:48 am
Plenty of shows have crossovers even if it doesn't make sense. They do it because it's fun and don't bend over backwards to make it all count. Why the hell does it all need to connect?
BECAUSE ITS FUN ! 8)
I said the crossover is fun, but the anal retentive attempt to make it all fit together like a jigsaw puzzle is not.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:19 pm

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:36 am
But let's not forget Dragon Ball Online which also evolved into Xenoverse. So one new universe.

Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball Online > Dragon Ball Xenoverse
Still in that mistake, huh?
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:36 am
And you can do this also for the movies that follow the same path up to the point of their convergence stories. For example the Tullece movie happen here because Goku vanquich Vegeta and Nappa and saved his friends after this movie we can assume that the movie of Slug happen as well as the Dr Uiro movie at least those three movie can be pack together because Goku show up early to fight Vegeta and saved his friend. It's like a Tree.
That's not how the movies work, though.
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:37 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:19 pm
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:36 am
But let's not forget Dragon Ball Online which also evolved into Xenoverse. So one new universe.

Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball Online > Dragon Ball Xenoverse
Still in that mistake, huh?
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:36 am
And you can do this also for the movies that follow the same path up to the point of their convergence stories. For example the Tullece movie happen here because Goku vanquich Vegeta and Nappa and saved his friends after this movie we can assume that the movie of Slug happen as well as the Dr Uiro movie at least those three movie can be pack together because Goku show up early to fight Vegeta and saved his friend. It's like a Tree.
That's not how the movies work, though.
I've made possibly few mistakes but you get the gist of what I was trying to explain as for the movie, well since there are no backstories indication of how they work Timeline wise that's how I envision them to work. By chronological branching of X event to Y event.
ABED wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:32 am
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:30 am
ABED wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:48 am
Plenty of shows have crossovers even if it doesn't make sense. They do it because it's fun and don't bend over backwards to make it all count. Why the hell does it all need to connect?
BECAUSE ITS FUN ! 8)
I said the crossover is fun, but the anal retentive attempt to make it all fit together like a jigsaw puzzle is not.
Agree to Disagree lol and beside Jigsaw puzzle are fun too. Mind you that you speak to someone that can PICTURE in his mind a concept like the Infinite. Yes I can picture what it's like the infinity :D it's exciting to imagine the infinite.
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:50 pm

Yes, they are fun, but jigsaw puzzles are meant to fit together. What you are talking about is pieces from different puzzles.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:00 pm

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:37 pm
I've made possibly few mistakes but you get the gist of what I was trying to explain
Yeah, but it still doesn't really make sense to put Dragon Ball Xenoverse along with Dragon Ball Online while being completely aware of the common sense that they don't go along.
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:37 pm
as for the movie, well since there are no backstories indication of how they work Timeline wise that's how I envision them to work. By chronological branching of X event to Y event.
Have you not checked Daizenshuu 6? The backstories are explained there. In the alternate dimension where the movies occur, they follow the exact same events seen in the series, except that "something more" tends to happen. They are not what-if events, like you implied in your previous post.
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by jollyr » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:38 am

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:36 am
ABED wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:18 pm
Story is what matters, not whether every single incarnation of TMNT connects. It doesn't make it richer, it makes it all fan service-y and convoluted.
I love also for Dragon Ball to dig and think hard about Saiyan biology how the Cells S trigger biologically the Super Saiyan does that connect to the Oozaru too ?
Lore is boring, so no! That stuff has been talked about to death. It has no meaning for the story and it has been long since any of that mattered.

GT exists, so why does it matter if it's thrown out of continuity?
Well when you story matters I will never disagree with that but FOR ME I love stories that have a DEEP lore behind because I love Stories that carry HEAVY LORE it's exhilarating for me. For TMNT though they did show us in some crossover event that there is a TMNT Multiverse and that the Krang Universe is what's connect them kinda. Like the Krang Universe is some sort of hub between different Universe.

GT can connect to the main continuity in the same way as the TMNT Universe.

Imagine something like this when Toriyama created Dragon Ball the original 42/34 volumes (depend on your version) here you have the original Universe then you have the anime, here this universe is spawned from the original. Also let's not forget about Jaco The Galactic Patrolman that come into play and happen before the manga and here is canon to the manga that we 100% are sure.

For the manga that do this:

Jaco The Galactic Patrolman > Dragon Ball (all of that manga)

For the anime that do this:

Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball GT

So I this point we have already two Universe in the same Megaverse bubble (Manga and Anime sharing the same bubble)

Then arrive Dragon Ball Kai and Dragon Ball Super that I think we can safely pack together so we have a third Universe spawned from the original that give us.

Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Kai > Dragon Ball Super

But let's not forget Dragon Ball Online which also evolved into Xenoverse. So one new universe.

Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball Online > Dragon Ball Xenoverse

At this point we have already four Universe sharing the same bubble. Heck Five if you want to make two version of Dragon Ball Super (Anime & Manga) The manga being the follow up of the original manga.

Jaco The Galactic Patrolman > Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Super

And you can do this also for the movies that follow the same path up to the point of their convergence stories. For example the Tullece movie happen here because Goku vanquich Vegeta and Nappa and saved his friends after this movie we can assume that the movie of Slug happen as well as the Dr Uiro movie at least those three movie can be pack together because Goku show up early to fight Vegeta and saved his friend. It's like a Tree.

You need to widen your perspective and see the greater picture like a Canvas. And I didn't include Dragon Ball Legends or Dragon Ball FighterZ that have their own story as well they are working the same way. Well for me at least it's fascinating ♥ :D I love study a work of art this way ♥
I actually really like what you did here until you start including video games then it just becomes ridiculous. I would only consider things of official nature

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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Goten_jr » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:26 am

GT is canon to the DB- DBZ Anime Continuity&as long as Super dosen´t go past the end of z It remains the only official Contuniation to the end of Z but if Super goes past the end of z than we can recognize GT officially as an Alternate Story/Timeline

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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:16 am

jollyr wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:38 am
I actually really like what you did here until you start including video games then it just becomes ridiculous. I would only consider things of official nature
Well video games are also official.
Grimlock wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:00 pm
Have you not checked Daizenshuu 6? The backstories are explained there. In the alternate dimension where the movies occur, they follow the exact same events seen in the series, except that "something more" tends to happen. They are not what-if events, like you implied in your previous post.
I tried to check here in the Kanzenshuu website but I didn't find anything peculiar to note on the Daizenshuu 6 translation. If you can pin point what they say in this book ?
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by KBABZ » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:07 am

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:16 am
jollyr wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:38 am
I actually really like what you did here until you start including video games then it just becomes ridiculous. I would only consider things of official nature
Well video games are also official.
A lot of the time their stories also fall into effective What If categorization, with the slight exception of Dragon Ball Online and, by faint extension, Xenoverse. They just aren't significant enough to note in the face of the classic movies, the manga and the anime, so I often just put them into a "one-off" bin next to the Reincarnated as Yamcha one-shot, The Path to Power, and Evolution. Plus of course half the time they're just retreading the exact same storyline as the anime anyway so they contribute nothing new except "OHHHH the field where they fought Raditz looked different and the dialogue wasn't exactly the same!".
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:16 am
Grimlock wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:00 pm
Have you not checked Daizenshuu 6? The backstories are explained there. In the alternate dimension where the movies occur, they follow the exact same events seen in the series, except that "something more" tends to happen. They are not what-if events, like you implied in your previous post.
I tried to check here in the Kanzenshuu website but I didn't find anything peculiar to note on the Daizenshuu 6 translation. If you can pin point what they say in this book ?
@Grimlock: The Daizenshuu are great information resources but they're also EXTREMELY non-committal. For example, they bring up and highlight the contractions with Gohan's introduction regarding DBZ Ep1 and DBZ M1, but they don't provide an answer as to which is real, if they co-exist, are alternate timelines, or anything. They just go "Hey there's a problem here, shruuuuuuugs???"

To go back to the original OP question on GT being "not canon", I don't think that's a relevant question as it's pretty clear Toei considers it an alternate timeline (or "dimension" as close as they're able to call it in their native language). I mean, the amount of Super Saiyan 4 merchandise and video game features (and inclusion in DB Heroes) means it's certainly not irrelevant like, say, Star Wars Legends is. To pull another example, the story of Dragon Ball FighterZ is non-canon, but Toei certainly doesn't care given the sheer amount of Android 21 merchandise there's been.

Not to mention, Dragon Ball Heroes provides an out because it DOES showcase alternate versions of characters coming together as part of a multi-continuity crossover like it's Into the Spider-Verse, so the concept is certainly not a foreign and unexploited one when it comes to the Dragon Ball franchise.

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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:11 am

What is really all that bad about saying GT isn't in continuity or canonical?

At least it's not saying a season or finale didn't exist.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Desassina » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:37 am

To me, the whole situation is like magenta, the color that exists, but doesn't have wavelength, and is therefore outside the spectrum. It can be stimulated by both ends of the latter, with wavelengths that we perceive as being red and blue, because color is also a product of the mind.

Dragon Ball GT is magenta!

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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by Grimlock » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:37 am

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:16 am
I tried to check here in the Kanzenshuu website but I didn't find anything peculiar to note on the Daizenshuu 6 translation. If you can pin point what they say in this book ?
If you scroll down to the movie notes, you'll see a statement by Daizenshuu 6. That kind of statement was given to all movies. The guidebook analyzes the movie and based on it tells you when they occur.

They don't say "Movie 12 happens in a hypothetical situation where Goku defeated Majin Buu" for example. This is a misconception, a dishonest mistake not supported by any official statement.
KBABZ wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:07 am
A lot of the time their stories also fall into effective What If categorization, with the slight exception of Dragon Ball Online and, by faint extension, Xenoverse. They just aren't significant enough to note in the face of the classic movies, the manga and the anime, so I often just put them into a "one-off" bin next to the Reincarnated as Yamcha one-shot, The Path to Power, and Evolution. Plus of course half the time they're just retreading the exact same storyline as the anime anyway so they contribute nothing new except "OHHHH the field where they fought Raditz looked different and the dialogue wasn't exactly the same!".
He is not wrong in bringing up Dragon Ball Online, though.
KBABZ wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:07 am
@Grimlock: The Daizenshuu are great information resources but they're also EXTREMELY non-committal. For example, they bring up and highlight the contractions with Gohan's introduction regarding DBZ Ep1 and DBZ M1, but they don't provide an answer as to which is real, if they co-exist, are alternate timelines, or anything. They just go "Hey there's a problem here, shruuuuuuugs???"
But we know the answer to that and the contradiction will only happen if one tries to put/connect what was seen in the movies to the series. But once you bear in mind that what happens in the movies takes place in another dimension, it's fine.
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Re: Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

Post by jollyr » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:07 am

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:16 am
jollyr wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:38 am
I actually really like what you did here until you start including video games then it just becomes ridiculous. I would only consider things of official nature
Well video games are also official.
Grimlock wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:00 pm
Have you not checked Daizenshuu 6? The backstories are explained there. In the alternate dimension where the movies occur, they follow the exact same events seen in the series, except that "something more" tends to happen. They are not what-if events, like you implied in your previous post.
I tried to check here in the Kanzenshuu website but I didn't find anything peculiar to note on the Daizenshuu 6 translation. If you can pin point what they say in this book ?
I disagree. By official I pretty men Toriyama involved or approved not American developers just doing anything they want.

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