"Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:32 am

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that the fandom is upset that Toei stooped to such a level of making a gag out of something so dumb.

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Thouser » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:37 am

Helios518 wrote:Android 18 isn't an android (dub change), she's a cyborg.
Not a dub change. Jinzō Ningen (人造人間 man-made human) is a synonym for android in Japanese. The equivalent term for cyborg is Kaizō Ningen (改造人間 modified human).

It's just as weird in Japanese as calling cyborgs "androids" in English, which is why Krillin had to give that explanation to Goku/the audience in the Boo Saga about how 18 was actually "modified" even though she was called "man-made."
Zephyr wrote:It's a mildly-chuckle-worthy, but ultimately forgettable, gag.

What's more funny than it, though, is the collective fandom panty-twisting over it. That's comedy gold.
Imagine the fan reaction if they had first acknowledged Krillin's in-universe lack of a nose in Super instead of in Dragon Ball.
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:38 am

Cipher wrote:I know it's just a light joke, but it really is hard to believe a man with Goku's history has never once kissed.

I mean, he spent three years in the Room of Spirit and Time with Vegeta.
This BETTER be fixed on your version of Dragon Ball! The one with all the Jeremy's and Milk Babe.

I can see it now! Jeremy stares into Jeremy's piercing dark eyes and loses every sense except DESIRE.
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:42 am

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I'm really sorry to hear that. I know that I'm just a poster on the internet in relation to you, but I really do hope everything will be okay. Only positive thought!
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Cipher » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:51 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:This BETTER be fixed on your version of Dragon Ball! The one with all the Jeremy's and Milk Babe.

I can see it now! Jeremy stares into Jeremy's piercing dark eyes and loses every sense except DESIRE.
That would absolutely have to be corrected, as I'd localize the Room of Spirit and Time as the White Hot Sex Chamber.

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:58 am

Stay tuned for next week as Goku gets sneakers and spends the episode trying to tie them.

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:01 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:Stay tuned for next week as Goku gets sneakers and spends the episode trying to tie them.
He'd probably forget them like he did the Mafuba and senzus.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:02 am

Imagine that Super ends tragically as it's revealed that Goku has some sort of brain disorder that makes him dumber as time goes on? In the last episode, he'll just sit there looking around giggling at everything.

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:27 am

Fionordequester wrote: We're not talking about different cultures here, Gaffer Tape; we're talking about Japanese culture. And if DBZAOTA's post is any indication, kissing's just as important in Japan as it is in Western Culture; arguably more so, now that I've done a bit of research.
No. We're not talking about Japanese culture, for two reasons. One is that Dragon Ball does not take place in Japan. And, yes, Dragon Ball's culture has roots in Japanese culture. Naturally. This joke couldn't exist in a culture where romantic kissing was not a thing. Because the whole point of the joke is that Goku is an aberration from the "norm." So I'm honestly not sure how pointing out that kissing is a big deal in Japan is supposed to make any sense in this context.

And two is that I did not bring up other cultures' different ideas of kissing to make a point that Goku followed X Culture. I certainly didn't bring it up to claim that Japan doesn't care about that sort of thing. I brought it up to demonstrate that different places have developed their own attitudes about what kissing means. That, when left to their own devices, they came up with multiple, different meanings for the same action, and in some cultures none at all. In other words, people are TAUGHT to understand what a kiss means. It's not something they are biologically ingrained to do. Nearly everyone in this thread seems to assume that kissing as a prelude to sex is an instinctive biological gesture. But it's not. It is a learned behavior. I'm not at all surprised that fans in Japan are having the same reaction. Because they too are taught that kissing your partner is just something you do, and if you've been taught something long enough, it becomes difficult to fathom that it even is something that is taught and not just something that simply exists. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that someone like Goku, who largely exists outside of society, could go most of his life without ever being aware that husbands and wives "touch lips" for romance in his society.

Honestly, my biggest problem with the scene is how forced the setup seems. I mean, why the flip would Trunks feed Mai a senzu that way? What sense does that make? Even when Gohan had a broken neck, Goku was able to shove the bean down his throat. Why not make it a much more genuine romantic gesture, with Trunks giving her a senzu, then being so happy that she's well that they spontaneously express their affection in a kiss? And THEN you can have Goku break the moment by asking about it. Instead, the kiss just seems rather meaningless, pointless, and slightly creepy.
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:47 am

ChronoTwigger wrote:
ABED wrote:She's not a robot. She's organic. I believe this was answered in the show. Happy now?
Well... no.
There's nothing like "organic androids".
Androids are human shaped robots. Maybe a cyborg could be organic. Androids are NEVER organic by definition.
My point was to have you notice how no one NO ONE care who are Huey Dewey and Louie parents but KIDS DOESN'T CARE. It's a kid show. Sons and daughters are nominal roles. And so even a robot can have kids and no one seems to care.
If they can reproduce are not androids at all, but cyborgs.
No kid ask himself how possible is to HAVE SEX with a woman and no kiss her. Most of them never kissed any or doesn't know how to reproduce.
Your point is ultimately pointless seeing as how regardless of the terminology used, 18 and 17 are in fact organic. This is an issue that's brought up several times. I also never called her an organic android since she's not robotic, she has parts, but she's human, as made clear several times throughout the show. How did you miss that? I'm not being condescending, but I do wonder since this isn't some minutia, but never the less, it's an explanation that seemed to fly over your head.
are TAUGHT to understand what a kiss means
Does that logic work with the very first kiss? Did they need someone to explain it to them?
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:57 am

ABED wrote: Does that logic work with the very first kiss? Did they need someone to explain it to them?
Yeah, I think the logic still works. Replace "kiss" with "baseball." Did someone need to explain baseball to the first person who conceived it? No. Obviously that's not possible. But you can't make the leap from that to, "Well, obviously the urge to baseball is just something we carry in our DNA." Baseball is clearly something someone invented and made rules for. It wasn't just floating out in the ether until someone discovered it. And most likely too, someone touched his or her lips to another person, for whatever reason, assigned it a meaning, and it caught on. That's still a construct.
Last edited by Gaffer Tape on Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:59 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
ABED wrote: Does that logic work with the very first kiss? Did they need someone to explain it to them?
Yeah, I think the logic still works. Replace "kiss" with "baseball." Did someone need to explain baseball to the first person who conceived it? No. Obviously that's not possible. But you can't make the leap from that to, "Well, obviously the urge to baseball is just something we carry in our DNA." Someone touched his or her lips to another person, for whatever reason, assigned it a meaning, and it caught on. That's still a construct.
I never claimed it was something in our DNA. I haven't researched it, but my guess is the first kiss's meaning was clear from context that it was a gesture of affection.

Baseball isn't a great counter example since that's a complex game.
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:05 am

I honestly do not care. I don't think it's funny but I don't see it as insulting as most people seem to. I've always seen Goku as an alien with a different mindset than humans, so I don't see what the big fuss is about. It "dehumanizes" him? Well, yeah, he's not a human and the show constantly reminds you of that fact.

I feel like him forgetting the senzu or not recognizing that Monaka is a weakling are far worse offenders to his character.

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:14 am

ABED wrote:I never claimed it was something in our DNA. I haven't researched it, but my guess is the first kiss's meaning was clear from context that it was a sign of affection.
Being taught through context is still being taught. Being taught doesn't have to mean someone sits you down and exposits to you. I mean, yeah, as a baby, your parents kiss you affectionately, and you don't have to be told to understand that they're being affectionate. And, yes, there are some biological components to it. There are similar affectionate gestures in the animal kingdom, and some anthropologists suspect kissing is an outgrowth of premastication practices (chewing your infant's food and feeding them like how birds do), so I'm not saying there is no biological relation at all. But to go back to the example, that same infant who picks up through context that when their parents touch their lips to him to express affection is later going to have to be taught all sorts of other kissing "rules." That that same lip contact will mean different things when done with different people. That that lip contact has different rules depending on what sex you are (female friends are taught they can be more physically affectionate than male friends typically are taught). That that lip contact has different rules and meanings depending on whether you are related or not. That that lip contact has different rules depending on how old you are (for example, when I was really little, my mother would give me a peck on the lips, but as I got older, it became a peck on the cheeks instead because it becomes weird as you get older). While all of those are based around the same general idea of affection, all those rules are just things people made up.

And then you get into examples like, say, The Godfather Part II, where Michael kisses Fredo on the lips, and they both understand it to mean, "I'm going to fucking kill you. Be afraid."
Baseball isn't a great counter example since that's a complex game.
That just seems pedantic to me, but I understand the point. I could change it to jacks if you'd prefer, or the wearing of a necktie or high heels.
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:15 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that the fandom is upset that Toei stooped to such a level of making a gag out of something so dumb.
Except it wasn't Toei it was Toriyama. Infact I'd say to Toei's credit they handled it MUCH better, at least they left it somewhat ambiguous and left it up to the viewer to interpret how they want.

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:25 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
ABED wrote:I never claimed it was something in our DNA. I haven't researched it, but my guess is the first kiss's meaning was clear from context that it was a sign of affection.
Being taught through context is still being taught. Being taught doesn't have to mean someone sits you down and exposits to you. I mean, yeah, as a baby, your parents kiss you affectionately, and you don't have to be told to understand that they're being affectionate. And, yes, there are some biological components to it. There are similar affectionate gestures in the animal kingdom, and some anthropologists suspect kissing is an outgrowth of premastication practices (chewing your infant's food and feeding them like how birds do), so I'm not saying there is no biological relation at all. But to go back to the example, that same infant who picks up through context that when their parents touch their lips to him to express affection is later going to have to be taught all sorts of other kissing "rules." That that same lip contact will mean different things when done with different people. That that lip contact has different rules depending on what sex you are (female friends are taught they can be more physically affectionate than male friends typically are taught). That that lip contact has different rules and meanings depending on whether you are related or not. That that lip contact has different rules depending on how old you are (for example, when I was really little, my mother would give me a peck on the lips, but as I got older, it became a peck on the cheeks instead because it becomes weird as you get older). While all of those are based around the same general idea of affection, all those rules are just things people made up.

And then you get into examples like, say, The Godfather Part II, where Michael kisses Fredo on the lips, and they both understand it to mean, "I'm going to fucking kill you. Be afraid."
Baseball isn't a great counter example since that's a complex game.
That isn't pedantic because baseball needs to be first figured out then taught. No one needed to be taught what kissing means because it is a very simple act that only requires two people. By context I clearly meant that the people kissing could figure it out for themselves what it meant, no one had to sit down to tell them anything. At least that's how I imagine it went.

And Godfather two is a great example because no one needed to be taught that sort of kiss wasn't romantic. Anyone could infer from context what it was about. Now, imagine the first kissers having a romantic moment, staring at each other, and one leaning in for the first time. Do you think they couldn't figure out on their own what it all meant in the heat of the moment?
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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:33 am

It's a dumb, and I mean really, dumb gag. But I think some people are looking into it way too deeply and/or taking it way too seriously. Does it make sense for Goku to have never kissed Chi Chi? No, it doesn't. But given how casually distant Goku can be with his family, it's not something completely out of the realm of possibility.

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:58 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that the fandom is upset that Toei stooped to such a level of making a gag out of something so dumb.
Except it wasn't Toei it was Toriyama. Infact I'd say to Toei's credit they handled it MUCH better, at least they left it somewhat ambiguous and left it up to the viewer to interpret how they want.
I meant Toriyama. Who cares which one of them does it? I'm not in the "Toriyama can do no wrong!" camp.

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:21 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:Stay tuned for next week as Goku gets sneakers and spends the episode trying to tie them.
He'd probably forget them like he did the Mafuba and senzus.
Just watch him forgot one of those things in the manga, too.

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Re: "Goku never kissed": Do you take it as a joke or (un)funny trivia?

Post by Fionordequester » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:02 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:No. We're not talking about Japanese culture, for two reasons. One is that Dragon Ball does not take place in Japan.
How do you explain all the honoriffics then? Like "Goku-sa", "Son-kun", "Pan-chan", and "Kuririn-san"? PRE-TTY odd, don't you think? I mean, honoriffics aren't exclusive to Japan, but to have those EXACT honoriffics? And for that matter, why does everyone in DBZ's universe know Japanese? How is it that neither Raditz, Napppa, or Vegeta ever had trouble speaking the same language as Gohan, Piccolo, and the other Z-senshi? Why are there Kanji symbols on the various gi's that Goku and co. wear?

The "cultural differences" argument doesn't work when the DBZ universe is very clearly modeled off of Japan, with minor exceptions (like dinosaurs and talking animals).
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