Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:44 pm

kinisking wrote:
the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite."
What's going on here isn't elitism.
I feel like the people who appreciate dragonball's humour more or have read all of dragonball tend to consider themselves as superior to the ones who have only watched DBZ or aren't interested in dragonball's humour. They'res definitely a divide between people who consider themselves "true" dragonball fans and what they call deebeezee fans. I've seen it elsewhere, I've seen it on Kanzenshuu and I've seen hints of it in this thread.
I see your point, but I wouldn't call that elitism, more of a circle jerk.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by coola » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:48 pm

Like i said before, if people are fans of King Piccolo - Cell Saga era, they might not like Buu Saga and Super, where serious stuff is mixed with slapstick Dr. Slump comedy and poo jokes.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:58 pm

kinisking wrote:
Soppa Saia People wrote:
kinisking wrote: You really don't think they'res any elitism going on in this thread?
"e·lit·ism
əˈlēdˌizəm/
noun
noun: elitism
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite."
What's going on here isn't elitism.
I feel like the people who appreciate dragonball's humour more or have read all of dragonball tend to consider themselves as superior to the ones who have only watched DBZ or aren't interested in dragonball's humour. They'res definitely a divide between people who consider themselves "true" dragonball fans and what they call deebeezee fans. I've seen it elsewhere, I've seen it on Kanzenshuu and I've seen hints of it in this thread.
While there's indeed a clear change in tone and scripts between classical and Z, you need to know the whole product 'cause they are tied. Super it's almost a blend of both. Classic DB fan are PROBABLY more aware of the product as a whole, while z hardcore fans tend to focus ONLY on the hypercinetic fights.
That said, some Z hardcore fan express very smart opinions too.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by Zephyr » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:16 am

I'd argue that the ones having a tougher time with the gags here are in the more casual demographic. The more hardcore section of the fandom seem eager to go down that Dragon Ball rabbit hole (and thus that greater Toriyama rabbit hole) as far as it will go, and appreciate it the whole way down. And I don't mean "casual" in a derogatory manner. I'm a very causal fan of things like Star Wars and major comic book characters, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Unless you intend "hardcore" to mean pic related:
Image

In which case, yeah, Toriyama's brand of humor probably isn't going to hit the right notes for the "hardcore" crowd.

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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:36 pm

Lunatic Fringe wrote:Because those are the type of fans who jumped on the Dragon Ball gravy train when Toonami was airing it every weekday after school, at a point in the series where the comedy and light-heartedness was significantly toned down from what they missed out on. So as far as they're concerned, the narrative about Dragon Ball has always been about blood and violence and genocide and muscles and screaming and death and explosions and...well, you get the idea. Stuff like Arale is the complete antithesis of that, thus creating dissonance with those who've always seen Dragon Ball as a super serious, no nonsense, edgy, "EXTREME!!!" series about power and rage.
When has Dragon Ball Z ever been advertised as such in the U.S.? It was billed as the "greatest action cartoon," but so what? The dub never "toned down" any comedy; in fact, they played up the cheesy factor. I find it strange that a lot of people crap on the dub for being too silly/goofy ("cat loves food," etc.) and then when it's convenient, shift and say that it was all "blood, violence, genocide, muscles, screaming, death, and explosions." That's simply not true. Why might some people believe that it's about blood, violence, genocide, muscles, screaming, death, and explosions? Because that actually happened in the series; that wasn't a dub-exclusive. In fact, the blood didn't get shown until later anyway as they censored the series. The dub had plenty of moments when they did comedy and there was never ever a moment in the series where there was comedy in the original and the dub said, "No wait, we gotta make this x-treme!!!" So don't try to pin that outlook of the series on how it was advertised in the U.S. or dubbed please.

precita wrote:Its because most of these people forget Dragonball started off as a comedy manga and they think the franchise is just supposed to be mindless fighting, blood, and swear words because that's all they remember from their kid years watching DBZ on TV.
Yeah because DBZ had that. So you're basically saying that it regressed to what it was before the shift in tone? Nobody likes regression.


A lot of people simply don't like the Dragon Ball humor. I don't find poo poo, kaka jokes funny. I don't find anything in Dragon Ball really funny. I get that it has comedy, but honestly, I never actually laughed out loud. Yes, I enjoyed the action in the later arcs of Dragon Ball and throughout Dragon Ball Z. I'm sorry, it's not a Toonami thing, it's the fact that it happened in the anime. I don't understand how anyone can look at something like Piccolo Daimao or most of Z and pretend that the series had a comedic tone more than an action tone. I do believe that it is elitism, like kinisking said. The elite fans want to pretend like Dragon Ball is all light-hearted and a gag-manga; that's all I see lately. "It's a gag manga!" "How could anyone take the Dragon Ball universe seriously?" Um, it evolved beyond a gag manga by the time Kuririn was killed in the original Dragon Ball. Just because it started as a gag manga and became action-based with some comedy, doesn't mean that after half of Dragon Ball and all of Dragon Ball Z, that suddenly people will appreciate the story degenerating to poop jokes.

I am not sure what happened in this episode, but if it's something silly as hell, I totally understand people being upset. If we went through nearly 70 episodes of Super and now suddenly Arale comes strolling along and is "god tier" (like I've seen online), I can see many fans being rubbed the wrong way by that. But hey, it's just a "gag manga" because the first arc of Dragon Ball was really silly; why's anyone getting so upset? :roll:
Last edited by TheGreatness25 on Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:42 pm

Speaking to contemporary advertising (so when the show was still actively in production at FUNimation):

FUNimation very specifically took every opportunity to do their own advertising with the "hardcore" spin highlighting the violence, blood, etc.

The one time they acknowledged the light-heartedness of the series was when they put it in a sepia tone, ran VHS filters over it, and told us directly that's not what the show was about.

It wasn't until the post-Barry Watson world when FUNimation started appreciating and acknowledging the Dragon Ball franchise from a holistic perspective, but by then, the "damage" (so to speak?) had already been done by indoctrinating their casual audience. Let's not beat around the bush here; it was intentional, consistent, calculated, and worked in their favor... up until today when suddenly they have to sell Dragon Ball for what it really is, rather than what they previously told everyone it was.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by PelicanDynasty » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:43 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: A lot of people simply don't like the Dragon Ball humor. I don't find poo poo, kaka jokes funny. I don't find anything in Dragon Ball really funny. I get that it has comedy, but honestly, I never actually laughed out loud. Yes, I enjoyed the action in the later arcs of Dragon Ball and throughout Dragon Ball Z. I'm sorry, it's not a Toonami thing, it's the fact that it happened in the anime. I don't understand how anyone can look at something like Piccolo Daimao or most of Z and pretend that the series had a comedic tone more than an action tone. I do believe that it is elitism, like kinisking said. The elite fans want to pretend like Dragon Ball is all light-hearted and a gag-manga; that's all I see lately. "It's a gag manga!" "How could anyone take the Dragon Ball universe seriously?" Um, it evolved beyond a gag manga by the time Kuririn was killed in the original Dragon Ball. Just because it started as a gag manga and became action-based with some comedy, doesn't mean that after half of Dragon Ball and all of Dragon Ball Z, that suddenly people will appreciate the story degenerating to poop jokes.
Kind of getting off topic here, but I always thought of DB as being more about adventure than just being a bunch of jokes. Yeah the jokes are there, but it never seemed to me like they were the foundation of the show.

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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:47 pm

I'm not talking about Funimation's advertisement, I'm talking about Toonami's advertisement. Funimation's advertisement was targeted toward people that were already fans because obviously someone who wasn't already a fan wouldn't be buying the DVDs.

Watching the series by itself, Funimation never put serious moments when there was comedy. There are serious moments and there is action.

The point is that the Dragon Ball series touched different people in different ways. It's an undeniable fact that it is action-packed, that there's blood, that there's an epic feel to it. The fans who like that don't necessarily care for a Goku baby dick or Arale holding poo on a stick. Just because some fans like that stuff doesn't mean that the entire series catered to it. You'd be hard-pressed to find anything in Z that came anywhere close to the level of "gag" as the beginning of Dragon Ball had. So obviously, the majority of the series had a more serious tone. But god forbid a fan likes that stuff. I do think it's elitism and I do think that it's pretty silly. It's just simply not what many fans fell in love with. Anyone is free to enjoy the series any way they feel like it; so to be "shocked" that there are fans that don't like some things about Super is so freaking strange. Stop judging other fans for what they like and don't like.

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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by Thouser » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:53 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: I find it strange that a lot of people crap on the dub for being too silly/goofy ("cat loves food," etc.) and then when it's convenient, shift and say that it was all "blood, violence, genocide, muscles, screaming, death, and explosions." That's simply not true.
The complaints about the dub being cheesy are usually about them adding cheesy dialogue during scenes that weren't supposed to be funny in the original. Obviously humor itself isn't the issue, since the original has it as well.

Lunatic Fringe wasn't even saying that the dub changed the series to being about death and explosions, etc. He actually said that fans who started with the dub shown on Toonami got into the series at a time when the story was about that.

As for "the greatest action cartoon on TV," Toonami's marketing for DBZ may have been on the cheesy side, but Funimation themselves were definitely hyping the "coolness" of the series. For example, the "Trunks Saga" commercial they would include at the beginning of tapes that just had shots of Trunks with rock music playing and the name "TRUNKS" flashing across the screen, and the fact that they used metal music by real bands as the BGM for several of the movie dubs.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:57 pm

Please don't try to move the goalpost. You said:
TheGreatness25 wrote:When has Dragon Ball Z ever been advertised as such in the U.S.?
... and I provided real, concrete examples.
TheGreatness25 wrote:You'd be hard-pressed to find anything in Z that came anywhere close to the level of "gag" as the beginning of Dragon Ball had.
The entire beginning of the Boo arc...?

It starts with a superhero parody, and even when it gets into the serious stuff with character deaths and demons, it's all built around a fun-loving pink marshmallow man that likes to eat people, which further builds up to a fight with a fusion character spouting the same nonsense wrestling-inspired moves as Arale. It starts to transition away from that over the rest of the arc, but still never loses that identity.

The Boo arc is literally just a Dr. Slump arc (up through and including a battle with a "Majin") through the lens of an action show. Perhaps that's why I see it called out more often than not as being so "different" from the rest of the series, and that's for good reason.

But again, let's not pretend the precedent wasn't there at the very beginning of the series, and didn't flat-out conclude the series. The dry observational humor, gross-out gags, and everything else that made Dr. Slump a success was mined throughout the entirety of Dragon Ball.

Of course I'm going to concede that it became more of an action show and of course I'm going to concede that people like that style for what it is, but the spirit behind it the entire time was a fun one. I don't actually personally care if you don't like the latest Super episode with Arale, but if you can't find any enjoyment in it, I don't think you have as deep an investment in the franchise as you might otherwise think you do.

And that's not a "lesser fan" callout. Don't misunderstand. But call me "elitist" if you want. That's fine. I've dealt with that for almost twenty years now, and there's probably something to it. I'm just gonna have fun where there's fun, and if you wanna call that "elitist," that's cool.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:04 pm

I wasn't calling anyone anything. I said that it's kind of an elitist outlook and I didn't direct my comment at anyone specifically. I wasn't even speaking about myself because I didn't even see it. I just can't stand when I see someone criticising how certain people enjoy the series. "Whattt? How can they not like this? Whhhaattt?? How can they not like that joke? Whatttt? How can they like that dub??" Everyone has the right to enjoy the series however he or she wishes. There's no right way to enjoy the series. So get over it.

By the way, saying that I'm not as invested in DB as I thought is a slap in the face. I have spent thousands on the series and supported it since the late 90's. I've enjoyed Dragon Ball and all. Just because I said the gags aren't funny, I'm not as invested as I thought? That's a straight up insult.

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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by Bansho64 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:46 pm

I......didn't find the gags funny. From what I've seen in the episode, I didn't really laugh or find much enjoyment in it.

I mean, I'm not really all that sure about slapping the "hardcore dbz fan" label on people just because they don't like the comedy in DB. Personally, I guess you could call me apathetic to it? The comedy, I mean. I don't know. When I was younger, I liked watching Kai and some of the original DB because of the adventurous tone and that's what led me into the series. The fights were cool, the music was cool, I loved seeing the characters I loved on an adventure, and that was it.

Nowadays, I'm more of a DB fan who enjoys the adventure and is sort of ok with the comedy. I don't laugh or smile much at it but I don't hate it. I like the light-hearted-ness of it at points and I like the seriousness of it at points.

However, I do think that there are people out there who sort of misunderstand the current stuff because of Funi's original dubs from way back then. To them, the franchise is "ACTION, ACTION, ACTION!". So, when they watch Super, it's a bit of the shock because that filter that Funimation put on the franchise back then isn't there.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:49 pm

Guess I'm in the minority here, I used to piss my pants when I read Dragon Ball. Granted I was a 12 year old boy, who saw anything related to sex on the level on "Who's on first", but even nowadays, I still chuckle at it.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by Nekis13 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:51 pm

It's weird. Humor and Comedy in Dragon Ball as a whole is received very differently in other sides of the fandom.

Driving Episode? Everyone loves it.

The whole deal with Great Saiyaman episodes at the beginning of the Buu Arc? Here's where opinions start to differ.

I've noticed that the American (or "Hardcore" DBZ fans for the lack of a better term) side of the fandom dislike or even hated the Great Saiyaman episodes. Because either they just find it a waste of time or because of "muh badass gohan is now a dork wtf" (This is just what I've seen.)

On the other hand, the Latin American part of the fandom seems to accept and like those episodes more. Some because of the awkward situations Gohan is thrown in, some because of ridiculous Great Saiyaman can get, etc. (Keep in mind, Dragon Ball was a bigger hit around these countries. Maybe it has something to do with the situation, maybe it doesn't.)

I know this is about Super, but... just throwing my 2 cents in.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:55 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote:Guess I'm in the minority here, I used to piss my pants when I read Dragon Ball. Granted I was a 12 year old boy, who saw anything related to sex on the level on "Who's on first", but even nowadays, I still chuckle at it.
I don't necessarily find it "funny" anymore, but it's cute, amusing.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:47 pm

It's not comedy qua comedy I have any issue with. It all depends on if it's funny and when it's placed. Even a great joke at the wrong time can be bad if it spoils the moment. I for one don't find the driving episode funny at all, not because I have an issue with the tone or when it happens, but simply because I don't find it funny at all. I do consider myself a hardcore DBZ fan.
The elite fans want to pretend like Dragon Ball is all light-hearted and a gag-manga
That's hyperbole. Many get that there's a spectrum and the tone changes over time and from arc to arc. That's one of the things I respond to not only in Dragon Ball but in any story. Switching gears when done well is more effective usually than one unrelenting tone.
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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:19 am

VegettoEX wrote:And that's not a "lesser fan" callout. Don't misunderstand. But call me "elitist" if you want. That's fine. I've dealt with that for almost twenty years now, and there's probably something to it. I'm just gonna have fun where there's fun, and if you wanna call that "elitist," that's cool.
I think the best way to put it is this simple quote from my favourite sitcom: "I just guess I just like liking things."
Sums up my feelings on most things Dragon Ball TBH.

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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by sangofe » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:11 pm

coola wrote:Like i said before, if people are fans of King Piccolo - Cell Saga era, they might not like Buu Saga and Super, where serious stuff is mixed with slapstick Dr. Slump comedy and poo jokes.
Well. I love both King Piccolo and boo so much they're my favourites.

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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by shinmaru » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:51 pm

What's a hardcore fan? Everyone has his personal taste hardcore or not. I personally don't mind a little comedy in DB(like in epi 69) but not too much like in Super. Many ppl like me got into Dragon Ball because of the action and not the comedy, so I can understand why they didn't like that gag episode.

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Re: Hardcore dbz fans don't like comedy in Dragonball??

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:02 pm

Just because you get into something because of one thing, I fail to see why that precludes you from liking other factors you didn't know, especially humor.
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