Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:52 pm

But how much stock should anyone put in people's opinions on the net, especially back then?
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:55 pm

ABED wrote:But how much stock should anyone put in people's opinions on the net, especially back then?
Clearly enough to add to the pile of reasons to not stick with Faulconer Productions.

I don't know why I'm getting pushback on this. It's how it was.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:58 pm

I wouldn't call it push-back, even. It's just a strange thought, considering the fandom I grew up in as opposed to yours.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by Nejishiki » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:08 pm

You'll have to reconcile it as a difference in environments, I suppose. I don't exactly recall what I was doing during the Dragon Ball GT period in North America. I hadn't even completed the series yet, I don't think. I do have a clear memory of the disdain for Faulconer Productions. I wasn't as formal in sharing those opinions either. It was part of the common talking points alongside censorship and mischaracterization. The advert of not knowing Dragon Ball GT was mocked as much then as it is today.

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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:18 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
ABED wrote:But how much stock should anyone put in people's opinions on the net, especially back then?
Clearly enough to add to the pile of reasons to not stick with Faulconer Productions.

I don't know why I'm getting pushback on this. It's how it was.
Because even a bunch of naysayers on the net is meaningless unless it can affect the bottom line. They have no idea if any of those knocking it are buying it anyway. And back then, the internet wasn't as ubiquitous as it is now, so there was no way to know if those opinions were reflective of the mainstream. I agree with most of what you said, just not the point about feedback from postings on the net. You are also assuming that is why they changed their philosophy about replacement scores.
The advert of not knowing Dragon Ball GT was mocked as much then as it is today.
And yet GT was very successful in the US, so it likely did its job.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by laserkid » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:42 pm

It cannot be overstated how unanimously reviled the Falconer score was back in its day. People would say things to the effect of "it sounds like a cat running across a keyboard". Even among people who were more dub friendly the score was a major point of derision for the community back then.

As for why would FUNimation listen to that back in the day, well while it's certainly true the internet wasn't AS ubiquitous as it is today, it wasn't like it was a wasteland of few people. Furthermore, FUNimation even had a website back then and clearly valued fan input - I personally had several email interactions with them in that era and they were always very responsive, so to FUNimation at least the online fan interactions mattered.

I never saw any fan praise for the Falconer score until well into the mid to late 2000s, at which point GT had already come and gone.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:13 pm

They wanted repeat the same success that DBZ had with GT. I do remember being like "WTF is this?" when I saw the first episode of GT dubbed. I saw GT before it was dubbed in English from Funimation and I love the Japanese music from Akihito Tokunaga. The GT dub feels like a typical mid 2000's American cartoon with the music replacement, bad voice acting and awful dialogue. DBZ's dub felt the same back in the late 90's too.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by Thouser » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:31 pm

laserkid wrote:It cannot be overstated how unanimously reviled the Falconer score was back in its day. People would say things to the effect of "it sounds like a cat running across a keyboard".
I remember that. That was Chris Psaros in his initial look at Funimation's "Season 3" dub back in 1999.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:14 pm

The same situation was true of the dub in general. The dub and the dub music absolutely had fans, but you wouldn't have known it at the time from looking on the internet. There were nothing but disapproving comments. All of the people who liked anything dub-related were kids who were not yet technology-savvy enough to participate in internet discussions. Yes, I know kids are very technology-savvy nowadays, but keep in mind, this was the late 90's/early new millennium, so the internet, while not brand new by any means, was newish...not to mention way, way slower.

Then, when they did start participating in internet discussions, it was a classic recipe for a heated confrontation: hardcore sub fans were shocked and, at times, offended to learn that there were fans of the dub and the dub score, and hardcore dub fans were shocked and, at times, offended to learn that the sub fans hated something that had become such a treasured part of their youth. The more time passes, though, the more I've noticed that the "divide" in fandom has slowly been transitioning to more of a typical "dub vs sub" divide found with every anime, as opposed to a "original version vs completely different version" divide. We may not always be talking about the same cast, but we are at least now talking about the same show.

As for why they changed the score...no explanation was given. Common theories include DBZ (which did have a replaced score) being more successful than Dragon Ball (which used the original score), and FUNimation wanting to receive royalty payments for the score's use rather than paying royalty payments for the use of Tokunaga's score.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by floofychan333 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:56 pm

They just wanted to have more success with GT because everyone hates the original Dragon Ball.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:09 pm

The original Dragon Ball was a financial success. What are you talking about?
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by Fionordequester » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:31 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Key point there: in your school. Not online. Not at conventions. Not in any way that was actually getting back to FUNimation at the time by people with purchasing power.

That's what I'm saying when I'm noting how it wasn't until people your age got OLDER and started coming online that any of us (including FUNimation) actually found out someone, somewhere (anyone at all) actually liked that music.
Which is rather a bummer; just imagine how the Faulconer Production composers felt, on top of all that was happening between them and Bruce :cry: ...
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:51 pm

Fionordequester wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Key point there: in your school. Not online. Not at conventions. Not in any way that was actually getting back to FUNimation at the time by people with purchasing power.

That's what I'm saying when I'm noting how it wasn't until people your age got OLDER and started coming online that any of us (including FUNimation) actually found out someone, somewhere (anyone at all) actually liked that music.
Which is rather a bummer; just imagine how the Faulconer Production composers felt, on top of all that was happening between them and Bruce :cry: ...
I know. If there's something I don't like about the dub, I'll openly admit it...but at the same time, I've toned my rhetoric way down as the years have gone on. Partially because getting older will do that to you, but also because I began to put together over the years how hard it probably was for those involved with the dub. I'm absolutely convinced that, even in the abysmal period that was "Season 3," the people behind the dub were legitimately pouring their hearts and souls it...they just came short because, to put it broadly, they were new to this. I may not like a lot of the work, but I'm certainly not without sympathy. To put so much time and effort into something, only to go online and find that the only things people are saying about your work are critical and, at times, personally abrasive...even as somebody who agreed with some of the criticisms, I'd have to imagine that that must have been really, really tough.

Heck, even the conventions were reportedly tough at first. Chris Sabat said once that the first few years of him going to conventions and panels were horrible, because they consisted solely of angry "Why did you change this?"-questions.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by huzaifa_ahmed » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:20 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:They wanted repeat the same success that DBZ had with GT. I do remember being like "WTF is this?" when I saw the first episode of GT dubbed. I saw GT before it was dubbed in English from Funimation and I love the Japanese music from Akihito Tokunaga. The GT dub feels like a typical mid 2000's American cartoon with the music replacement, bad voice acting and awful dialogue. DBZ's dub felt the same back in the late 90's too.
The context here is confusing. Isnt one of the criticisms of dubs that they are much lower-budget than typical cartoons? I'm interpreting this as you saying that American cartoons have bad dialogue & acting.

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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by laserkid » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:24 pm

I definitely agree it's pretty shitty to have hard work shut down harshly, and I certainly don't respect personal attacks on people who did the work. That said, I think it was only fair to criticize the dub for its many shortcomings, FUNimation could have wallowed in sadness or been arrogant, but instead they took those criticisms to heart and changed how they did things for the better, and we're all the better for it.

I can't speak for everyone, but having been around in that time period I'd say I was more moderate, and there definitely was a scale from "the dub sucks, screw FUNimation" to "the dub sucks, here's how they could improve". The former doesn't help anyone, the latter on the other hand is vital for any creative endeavor, you don't improve without honest criticism.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:10 am

laserkid wrote:I definitely agree it's pretty shitty to have hard work shut down harshly, and I certainly don't respect personal attacks on people who did the work. That said, I think it was only fair to criticize the dub for its many shortcomings, FUNimation could have wallowed in sadness or been arrogant, but instead they took those criticisms to heart and changed how they did things for the better, and we're all the better for it.

I can't speak for everyone, but having been around in that time period I'd say I was more moderate, and there definitely was a scale from "the dub sucks, screw FUNimation" to "the dub sucks, here's how they could improve". The former doesn't help anyone, the latter on the other hand is vital for any creative endeavor, you don't improve without honest criticism.
Couldn't have said it better myself!

People in the dubbing industry actually like constructive criticism, because sometimes fans can pick up on things that those behind the dub may not necessarily pick up on. It's only the criticisms that are over-the-top or personal (or both) that I have a problem with. I read the comments of one person on a YouTube video who compared the DBZ dub to rape, which....yeahno. Hopefully it goes without saying that a statement like that is just utterly and completely out of touch with reality.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:56 am

huzaifa_ahmed wrote: I'm interpreting this as you saying that American cartoons have bad dialogue & acting.
Most of cartoons of the 70's, 80's, 90's and early-mid 2000's did when you really look on them. Both the 1999-2003 dub of DBZ and GT dub do feel like that they where trying to be like most American cartoons release around that time (late 90's/early parts of the 2000's for DBZ and mid 2000's for GT).
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I knew who were fans around the time GT was airing in the US, that sounds ass-backwards. Even though I didn't get into it until later, I specifically remember the music getting universal praise in my school. Granted, this could have been a local majority opinion, as opposed to actual popular opinion.
Seeing that you are 18, I would imagine you would have been really young when GT air in the US. Kids around your age at the time would not be old enough to go on the web. So they just judge on what they saw on TV. I was 12 when GT came out in the US and I was already been going on fan websites for at least two years at the time. Not to mention, I knew how to find ways to watch episodes of the series before they where dubbed. I saw GT before it got dubbed and I was like "They made the show 10X worst" when the dub came out in late 2003. Fans on different AOL chat rooms that I would go on in 2003, was not very happy about the dub of GT neither.
laserkid wrote: I never saw any fan praise for the Falconer score until well into the mid to late 2000s, at which point GT had already come and gone.
I feel like the nostalgia for the Falconer music and the Toonami era dub from 1999-2003 became more popular around 2007 or 2008. By then, the older kids (7-12) who saw DBZ around that time would be in their older teens or young adults. So they would be start feeling nostalgic of the show and the Orange Bricks was getting around that time. When the Orange Bricks was coming out, the nostalgia of DBZ was starting to kick in for a lot of people. By 2009, the younger kids who saw DBZ on Toonami would start showing up on the web and feeling nostalgic of the series as well. I do remember some people like Falconer's score around 2004 and 2005, but nowhere as big compare to now.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:01 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I knew who were fans around the time GT was airing in the US, that sounds ass-backwards. Even though I didn't get into it until later, I specifically remember the music getting universal praise in my school. Granted, this could have been a local majority opinion, as opposed to actual popular opinion.
Seeing that you are 18, I would imagine you would have been really young when GT air in the US. Kids around your age at the time would not be old enough to go on the web. So they just judge on what they saw on TV. I was 12 when GT came out in the US and I was already been going on fan websites for at least two years at the time. Not to mention, I knew how to find ways to watch episodes of the series before they where dubbed. I saw GT before it got dubbed and I was like "They made the show 10X worst" when the dub came out in late 2003. Fans on different AOL chat rooms that I would go on in 2003, was not very happy about the dub of GT neither.
You're right, I was probably 5 or so. Hell, GT probably began airing before I started school. Most of my interactions with DB fans came from my brothers' friends a few years older, who were really in to it. Either way, we were in a pretty backwoods area, so I doubt anyone was on the internet.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:26 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I assume you're familiar with the staunch Faulconer-only section of the fan-base, they were there back then, and they were the mainstream audience. If they wanted GT to succeed, a replacement score couldn't hurt, or so they thought.
Funnily enough, back then, the JPN fans ruled the internet. But as more of dub fans grew up/got internet (I've only had full time internet since 2010), and as the older fans didn't care anymore/lost interest, Dub fans became the majority.
I still find it odd that Dragon Ball is the only series like that. Other anime like One Piece, Sailor Moon and Digimon had their old dubs still be dislike by today's anime fans. While DBZ is the only one that people are okay with being different from the Japanese version. I've been on DB fan sites since 2001 and it still amazes me how the online fandom has changed in the last 15 years.
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Re: Why did Funimation initially use a replacement score for GT?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:Most of cartoons of the 70's, 80's, 90's and early-mid 2000's did when you really look on them. Both the 1999-2003 dub of DBZ and GT dub do feel like that they where trying to be like most American cartoons release around that time (late 90's/early parts of the 2000's for DBZ and mid 2000's for GT).
Please don't imply that Batman: The Animated Series had bad acting and dialogue. It's probably the best action cartoon of the 90's. And if even if most 80's cartoons didn't have Shakespearean dialogue, most of the acting and voices were solid.
Hellspawn28 wrote:I still find it odd that Dragon Ball is the only series like that. Other anime like One Piece, Sailor Moon and Digimon had their old dubs still be dislike by today's anime fans. While DBZ is the only one that people are okay with being different from the Japanese version. I've been on DB fan sites since 2001 and it still amazes me how the online fandom has changed in the last 15 years.
It's probably nostalgia for the old Toonami dub and nothing more.
Last edited by 8000 Saiyan on Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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