Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

[ABED]

The whole plot would most likely be radically different if the characters were battle junkies.

[Rukawa11]

I actually think Gohan would've made an excellent main character. The scenes from the second opening "We Gotta Power!" feature Gohan in the spotlight. He was a very fun character to watch during those episodes where he went to school and met Videl. As a teenager/ young adult, he inherited Goku's better traits like being socially naive and having a kind heart while not being a fighting fanatic like his father and Vegeta. I still don't know what Toriyama's reasons were for bringing Goku back and having him defeat Majin Boo, but it was a lousy move that not only ended Gohan's stint as the main character, it actually relegated the guy to a Yamucha-like status (and made a sore loser out of an incredibly promising Videl in the process). Whether it's movie 13, DBGT, Battle of Gods, Resurrection of F, or Super, there's a lingering sense that Toriyama just doesn't know what to do with Gohan. As a kid, It was natural to have Gohan beaten up and saved by Goku since Toriyama was gradually preparing Gohan to succeed his father as the hero (with the official passing of the torch being the Cell fight), but with Gohan being a grownup who's twice surpassed his father in the past, it just doesn't feel right for him to be like that anymore. How often do we see a hero who's pushing 40 go around doing glorious things while his 18-year old son is a complete wuss?

[DragonBallFoodie]

Alternatively, Toriyama may have just realised that when he wrote Goku at the beginning he intended for him to be the main character but when he wrote Gohan in the Saiyan saga he intended him to be a side character for the time being at least which means that Gohan just isn't main character material because he wasn't created with that in mind. Meanwhile Goku is a perfect fit for the sort of series that Toriyama wanted to write and as I mentioned earlier Goku is the one who goes out there to challenge the gods but Gohan is a stay-at-home scholar and family man who will still stand up and fight when he needs to.

This part is the most likely reason IMO.

Gohan is still around, he's been training with Piccolo and he's appearing in the Tournament arc. He's just not as lively and comical as his dad, and he's a lot saner than him (not a bad thing, but Toriyama's heroes are distinct with their eccentricities).

[ABED]

Gohan didn't surpass his father due to skill, he surpassed him because the depth of his seemingly endless well of potential kept increasing. The Great Saiyaman thing doesn't make him goofy and Goku like.

and made a sore loser out of an incredibly promising Videl in the process

How do you figure?

[floofychan333]

Gohan doesn't have the motivation to fight, and everyone is already attached to Goku. In fact, even if Goku gets old and wants to retire, I'm sure they will just make him young again. That's one thing GT taught us.

[Cipher]

You could certainly spin a series around Gohan, especially once he's a teenager, when his personality is a lot more distinct.

But compared to a character like Goku, in an action manga, you run into the problem of things having to constantly force Gohan into the role of hero. That is, he likes saving people, but he doesn't voluntarily seek challenge. He's always going to be reacting to that kind of plot rather than being a catalyst for it, and that becomes tiring because it feels less organic. You usually want to read about a character doing things, rather than having things happen to them.

[ABED]

You could certainly spin a series around Gohan, especially once he's a teenager, when his personality is a lot more distinct.

But compared to a character like Goku, in an action manga, you run into the problem of things having to constantly force Gohan into the role of hero. That is, he likes saving people, but he doesn't voluntarily seek challenge. He's always going to be reacting to that kind of plot rather than being a catalyst for it, and that becomes tiring because it feels less organic. You usually want to read about a character doing things, rather than having things happen to them.

Thank you, active characters are more often than not more interesting than passive characters. It's vital in main characters.

[Rukawa11]

You could certainly spin a series around Gohan, especially once he's a teenager, when his personality is a lot more distinct.

But compared to a character like Goku, in an action manga, you run into the problem of things having to constantly force Gohan into the role of hero. That is, he likes saving people, but he doesn't voluntarily seek challenge. He's always going to be reacting to that kind of plot rather than being a catalyst for it, and that becomes tiring because it feels less organic. You usually want to read about a character doing things, rather than having things happen to them.

Thank you, active characters are more often than not more interesting than passive characters. It's vital in main characters.

I'm not sure Gohan can be considered a passive character (nvm DBGT and Super, that is). Especially since, by the time Gohan is 17-18 during the Saiyaman Arc, Goku had already been a "catalyst" way too many times for any subsequent events of that sort to be interesting. We've already had Raditz seeking Goku out at the start of DBZ, Freeza coming to Earth to pay Goku back, and Androids 16 to 20 plus Cell being all created to kill him. Everything else he went through like training to beat the Saiyans or going to Namek to help the others are things Gohan would do as well. If by being active rather than passive, we're talking about Goku training during times of peace, that can hardly be regarded as "doing things rather than having things happen to him."
There'd been many theories as to why Toriyama suddenly decided to restore Goku as the main character after going through the trouble of preparing Gohan for that position from the very beginning of DBZ (the second opening "We Gotta Power," clearly shows Gohan as the main character), but I think it was down to Goku's popularity among fans. Ironically, Goku lost a third of his fans (or at least, they no longer respected him as much) when he came back and defeated Kid Boo. It greatly undermined his heroic sacrifice against Cell. Not to mention that he no longer wanted his son(s) to be stronger than him.
Cell Arc Goku felt more mature than Kid Boo and up.

[ChronoTwigger]

'Cause he was introduced as: loving his father. missing his father, live in the shadow of his father.
He failed to give Gohan a real motivation to stand as a main character of his own. He was, de facto, FORCED to join the story.
And when his role as side character ended, his appeal ended too.

Just... DB plot end with Frieza and there wasn't any plan to add something more later, like a generational shift. Or Gohan could have been depicted more carefully.

[ABED]

Goku had already been a "catalyst" way too many times for any subsequent events of that sort to be interesting.

Not sure what you mean by this.

Ironically, Goku lost a third of his fans (or at least, they no longer respected him as much) when he came back and defeated Kid Boo. Not to mention that he no longer wanted his son(s) to be stronger than him. Cell Arc Goku felt more mature than Kid Boo and up.

Did you just make this number up? ANd your assessment of what Goku was thinking is grossly exaggerated. It's not that he didn't want it, he returned to life because it was an emergency.

[TheZFighter]

Gohan is a character I've always had difficulty enjoying in this series. I know quite a lot REALLY like him, as many of my friends did when we were obsessed with this series in the late 90s, but he hasn't really ever "done it" for me. I've always acknowledged his contribution but, meh, I think he's a bit of a wet blanket.

I didn't have much time for Gohan when he was a whiny, annoying child. I thought he improved around the Android/ Cell saga, but as he became a teenager I really lost interest again.

After Elder Kai unlocked his potential though, that was the one time I really liked the character. I always go back to Tien's "hardly recognise you Gohan. You've changed a lot, inside and out. Good for you" quote. I think that quote best sums up why I liked him at that stage. Since then though, he's faded back into uninteresting blandness.

I think after he defeated Cell, and after Elder Kai unlocked his potential, were the two perfect times to run with him as a main character, but for whatever reason they chose not to. Maybe Goku is safe and family? I prefer Goku to Gohan anyway, and this series is "Saiyan heavy" enough as it is.

It looks like he'll be returning to the forefront a bit in the upcoming saga though. Whatever they do, I hope it is done well.

[ABED]

Gohan was only a whiny child for the Saiyan arc, but he grew up rather quickly.

[Rukawa11]

Not sure what you mean by this.

This was in response to Cipher saying that Gohan would always be reacting to things rather than being their catalyst/ making them happen. Goku had made things happen so many times in DB and DBZ that, by the time we're in the Saiyaman arc, I think we'd be better off with Gohan being forced into action rather than Goku being sought after (Raditz, Future Trunks) or targeted (Cyborg Freeza, Androids) again.

Did you just make this number up?

I did make that number up; those who've lost respect for the character were probably more than a third. If we disregard Super (made nearly twenty years after the franchise's end, it hardly consolidates anything character-wise), all we got to see of Goku's personality after the Kid Boo fight is the Oob tournament, the 13th movie, and DBGT (whose first episode aired a week after DBZ ended). In the Oob tournament, Goku reveals Oob's identity, relishes the prospect of fighting him, and ends up taking him away for some special training. Apart from leaving his family behind for years (which is more criminal than it seemed given how many times he'd been away from them in the past), Goku no longer seemed to think highly of Trunks and Goten's potential. Goten may have been portrayed as a slacker, but without Chi Chi hounding him to study like she did Gohan, why didn't Goku focus his efforts on making his son stronger? Goten was 16-17 at the time, and being half Saiyan, he naturally had larger potential than Oob.

In movie 13, a defeated Gohan attempted to clue Goku in on Hirudigan's weakness:
"Father, his weakness is---"
"I know that already!" barked an angry Goku, interrupting his son as though it'd be an insult if Gohan were to help him out. I used to think I was reading too much into it, but Goku really did shut Gohan up at that instant.

Finally, the result of post-Kid Boo episodes + Movie 13 gave birth to Goku's personality in DBGT, where I've yet to run into anybody who didn't dislike him. DBGT might be full of flaws, but they did get Goku's personality right: selfish, hogging the spotlight, doesn't care about his sons' progress, no longer wishing to see the future generation succeed him and wanting to keep fighting forever. All those traits started showing up in him after the Kid Boo fight, that's why I think he lost a great deal of maturity when he was restored to life the second time.

ANd your assessment of what Goku was thinking is grossly exaggerated. It's not that he didn't want it, he returned to life because it was an emergency.

An emergency which he subsequently capitalized on in terrible fashion. He didn't stand down after taking care of Kid Boo, did he? And where he wanted his first son to be stronger than him when he was in his late 20's, he certainly didn't seem keen on his second son being stronger than him when he's pushin' 50.

After Elder Kai unlocked his potential though, that was the one time I really liked the character. I always go back to Tien's "hardly recognise you Gohan. You've changed a lot, inside and out. Good for you" quote. I think that quote best sums up why I liked him at that stage.

That particular version of Gohan was extremely suited to become the main character, because he had a lot of Goku in him. When he descended to earth and Piccolo couldn't believe how poised Gohan had become, this should've been the moment where Gohan had succeeded Goku (even wearing his father's gi). If you think about it, that episode was not dissimilar to Goku's arrival to fight Nappa or the Ginyu Force.

[TheZFighter]

That particular version of Gohan was extremely suited to become the main character, because he had a lot of Goku in him. When he descended to earth and Piccolo couldn't believe how poised Gohan had become, this should've been the moment where Gohan had succeeded Goku (even wearing his father's gi). If you think about it, that episode was not dissimilar to Goku's arrival to fight Nappa or the Ginyu Force.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. Gohan at this point had a self-belief I can only recall him having once before. He was ready to step up.

[ABED]

I did make that number up; those who've lost respect for the character were probably more than a third

Once again, pure conjecture on your part. Goku has no obligation to push his sons or the next generation to better themselves if they don't want to. No one had to push him.

I used to think I was reading too much into it, but Goku really did shut Gohan up at that instant.
A moment of frustration is weak sauce.

where I've yet to run into anybody who didn't dislike him. hey did get Goku's personality right: selfish, hogging the spotlight, doesn't care about his sons' progress

Not for a second do I buy that. Who gives a shit about whether he cares about his sons' progress if they don't? How does that make him a horrible character? ANd he didn't hog the spot light. He's not real and he was always the main character. I wish people would stop using such an asinine argument as "hogging the spotlight" as if he's a primadona.

no longer wishing to see the future generation succeed him and wanting to keep fighting forever

I'm sure he would like to see it, but they have to want to on their own, and he always wanted to fight stronger and stronger opponents. How is that a negative? You hold him up to this ridiculous standard like he should step aside for the next generation. Why?

An emergency which he subsequently capitalized on in terrible fashion. He didn't stand down after taking care of Kid Boo, did he? And where he wanted his first son to be stronger than him when he was in his late 20's, he certainly didn't seem keen on his second son being stronger than him when he's pushin' 50.

He didn't capitalize on anything. He came back to destroy Buu. Stand down? Jesus. Why should he? He was trying to save the world and you are wanting him to move over, for what? For your platonic ideal of a fictional character passing the torch? No one passed Goku the torch. If Goten doesn't want it, why should Goku force it on him? Goku may be pushing 50, but 1) Saiyans' primes are longer than humans, 2) He keeps getting stronger, 3) Why should he sacrifice what he loves for his sons who clearly don't want it as much as he does?

[Gog]

The main problem, with Gohan, is that you would have to keep on forcing him into the role of a hero. Gohan's a sheep, no seriously without any Goku too help guide him he just stuffs up

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

That particular version of Gohan was extremely suited to become the main character, because he had a lot of Goku in him. When he descended to earth and Piccolo couldn't believe how poised Gohan had become, this should've been the moment where Gohan had succeeded Goku (even wearing his father's gi). If you think about it, that episode was not dissimilar to Goku's arrival to fight Nappa or the Ginyu Force.

He had everything but Goku's personality though. What people seem to never pick up on is that the fight with Super Buu was exactly the same as the Perfect Cell fight. Gohan let his cockiness fight for him and only had the advantage with raw power. Other than that when Buu got smarter, he easily beat Gohan exposing his flaw (and the downfall of Goku's character in RoF). Somehow Goku can get out of these situations, but Gohan never can by himself.

[Kendamu]

Gohan not liking to fight wasn't a big problem. He's always going to step forward is the world is at danger or someone ask for his help. The problem is that he's not willing to put everything at risk for a good fight. I can't imagine teen Gohan letting the androids to be created just for his amusement.
Toriyama's work is easier if he has someone like Goku as the protagnist.

Oh, dude! That's a good point! We can sort of get an idea of what that would've been like by reading how Trunks handled Majin Boo in his own timeline. I mean, he is a direct student of future Son Gohan after all!

I still think the Android stuff could've been the same, though. Remember, everything up to the Cell Game made Gohan who he is.

Speaking of Cell Game Gohan, though, he did have a problem controlling his aggression and he wasn't willing to end the fight immediately after he went SS2. Depending on whether or not he would've trained to have better control over SS2 (the same way him and Son Goku trained SS1 until it was Full Power Super Saiyan), it could've been written that he'd still have the same problem in the Boo Arc once he hit SS2 so he'd be reluctant to use SS2. Then, with some plot gymnastics, the Z Sword gets broken anyway, he gets his Ultimate form, and whoops on Super Boo!!

That's all speculation, though. I'm still okay with how things turned out. Besides, we'll be getting Gohan in the upcoming Universe Survival Arc of Super~!! I can't wait to read the manga of that!!

[Rukawa11]

Goku has no obligation to push his sons or the next generation to better themselves if they don't want to.

Then he shouldn't have dragged Gohan into the RoSaT (when Gohan didn't even know about the place) and told his son it was time to surpass his father in the Cell arc, nor should he have passed up the opportunity to destroy Fat Boo at ssj3 to teach Trunks and Goten the fusion dance, nor taken Oob along for special training when all the kid wanted was to win the tournament's prize money. The last case, however, is less due to Goku wanting Oob to succeed him and more because Vegeta (at that point) could no longer satiate Goku's thirst for strong opponents.

A moment of frustration is weak sauce.

A reaction in the form of silencing Gohan who was about to tell Goku what their opponent's weakness is can hardly be attributed to frustration. In short, it was the kind of the thing Vegeta would do.

How does that make him [Post-Kid Boo Goku] a horrible character?

Consider that, after coming back to life for the second time, Goku had lived with Goten for ten years between Kid Boo's defeat and the Oob tournament, and Goten wasn't pressured into studying the way Gohan was. If we look at how pathetic Goten had turned out during the Oob tournament, who else do we have to blame other than Goku? When Gohan went soft during the seven years after Cell Games, this was attributed to studying, and, more importantly, to Goku's absence. Think of all the times Kid Gohan would sneak out of his room to train/ fight with Goku against his mother's wishes. This proves that Goku's presence was significant in keeping Gohan motivated enough to fight or train. So how is it that, a Goten who had Goku living with him and no Chi Chi forcing him to study had become the second-coming of Yamucha during the Oob tournament? The only answer is that Goku was too caught up in himself to develop his younger son's strength. Remember the part where Goku and teen Goten were sparing in some meadow just before Vegeta and Bulma arrive? When Goten was beaten, Goku didn't react the way he did back when he trained Gohan all those years ago. Instead of praising Goten's performance and telling him to work harder, he grinned at him as if to say "Of course you're no match for me." This (along with the movie 13 thing) may seem insignificant, but they're both instances in which Goku had reacted in a way that was unlike him.

ANd he didn't hog the spot light. He's not real and he was always the main character.

Not always. Gohan had evidently filled that position at the end of Cell Games and the Saiyaman arc. When Goku came back for one day, I'd say the role was split between them (with scenes from the second opening song tipping the scales in Gohan's favor). It was only after Gohan began losing to Super Buu that Goku was back to being the main character. From that point on, Toriyama took rather painful measures in making sure Goku keeps that position (having Gohan absorbed, then die with the rest, then give up fighting altogether - have you ever seen a steeper and lousier relegation than that?)

I wish people would stop using such an asinine argument as "hogging the spotlight" as if he's a primadona.

Post-Kid Boo Goku comes extremely close to being one, actually. DBGT may not be canon, but having picked up from where Goku's selfish training with Oob finishes up, I can't criticize GT's rendition of Goku's newfound love for himself. He was already showing signs of this immaturity by the end of Z.

I'm sure he would like to see it [the next generation], but they have to want to on their own.

I don't think Gohan wanted to be taken into the RoSaT, to be told that he should become stronger than Goku, nor to be forced to fight Cell. Those (along with Goku training Trunks and Goten during the Boo Arc) are clear indicators that Goku has always wanted someone to take over his role. Just because Gohan, Goten, and Trunks had all failed to beat Majin Boo and Goku had to step in shouldn't mean they're all useless. But Goku had surely deemed them to be so if he suddenly shifted the focus on himself.

You hold him up to this ridiculous standard like he should step aside for the next generation. Why?

The above paragraph as well as the very first one in this post answer this question. Goku clearly wanted to be succeeded.

[ABED]

Instead of taking this point by point, the issue is that you think Goku's responsibility is to force his kids to fight when they don't want to. If they don't wish to train, that's on them. The only way they are going to get stronger than Goku and stay stronger is to push themselves. He can't do that for them. No one had to push him, he did so himself. While it was A goal of his a couple points to have his sons either surpass him or take the torch, that's not his raison d'etre, bettering himself is. I do need to clear one point up concerning Gohan. He went into the RoSaT of his own free will and Goku didn't force him to fight Cell. Gohan was the only one who could defeat Cell. That's not conjecture.