Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by Rukawa11 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:38 pm

ABED wrote:Instead of taking this point by point, the issue is that you think Goku's responsibility is to force his kids to fight when they don't want to. If they don't wish to train, that's on them. The only way they are going to get stronger than Goku and stay stronger is to push themselves. He can't do that for them.
Goku certainly couldn't do that for a 16-17 year-old Gohan who'd made up his mind to pursue his studies. But let's consider how different Goten's circumstances are:
- He was 6-7 when Goku started living in Mount Paozu again and could be molded into whatever Goku wanted him to become.
- He had a personality more similar to Kid Goku than Gohan did.
- He didn't have Chi Chi hounding him to study like she did with his Gohan.
- He was utterly fond of Goku whom he finally got to live with.

It follows that, a decade later, Goten would be the spitting image of a teenage Goku. So how could he turn into such a wuss instead? The only answer is that Goku had neglected training him properly because he was too caught up in himself.

On Toriyama's part, it feels like stripping Gohan and Goten of anything that would make them cool (making Gohan give up fighting and wear glasses, while turning Goten into a slacker who loses his Goku-like hairstyle) was done to ensure Goku's position as the main character. Because, as Gohan had proven during the Cell Games, no character(s) is more likely to take that position away from Goku than his son(s) is.

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:18 pm

Rukawa11 wrote:
ABED wrote:Instead of taking this point by point, the issue is that you think Goku's responsibility is to force his kids to fight when they don't want to. If they don't wish to train, that's on them. The only way they are going to get stronger than Goku and stay stronger is to push themselves. He can't do that for them.
Goku certainly couldn't do that for a 16-17 year-old Gohan who'd made up his mind to pursue his studies. But let's consider how different Goten's circumstances are:
- He was 6-7 when Goku started living in Mount Paozu again and could be molded into whatever Goku wanted him to become.
- He had a personality more similar to Kid Goku than Gohan did.
- He didn't have Chi Chi hounding him to study like she did with his Gohan.
- He was utterly fond of Goku whom he finally got to live with.

It follows that, a decade later, Goten would be the spitting image of a teenage Goku. So how could he turn into such a wuss instead? The only answer is that Goku had neglected training him properly because he was too caught up in himself.

On Toriyama's part, it feels like stripping Gohan and Goten of anything that would make them cool (making Gohan give up fighting and wear glasses, while turning Goten into a slacker who loses his Goku-like hairstyle) was done to ensure Goku's position as the main character. Because, as Gohan had proven during the Cell Games, no character(s) is more likely to take that position away from Goku than his son(s) is.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Goku can train someone all he wants, but if they can't be taught or don't want to or can't keep up, that's on them. Your answer isn't the only one. I don't even know if Goten was as interested in fighting as he is in having fun.

Why does Gohan have to be cool? Can't he just be interesting and different? Goku was always going to keep the position of main character. Changing leads that deep into a story is a terrible idea.
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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by TheZFighter » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:41 pm

Rukawa11 wrote:On Toriyama's part, it feels like stripping Gohan and Goten of anything that would make them cool (making Gohan give up fighting and wear glasses, while turning Goten into a slacker who loses his Goku-like hairstyle) was done to ensure Goku's position as the main character. Because, as Gohan had proven during the Cell Games, no character(s) is more likely to take that position away from Goku than his son(s) is.
You have to consider that not all of the characters in this series have a genetic disposition to violence, fighting and competition like Goku and Vegeta, or an incredible dedication to training and development like Piccolo, Tien and Chiaotzu. The rest of them tend to be relatively normal people who just so happen to be called into action when needed, hence Yamcha becoming a baseball player, a club host and a freelance bodyguard, and Krillin becoming a police officer. In fact, I think even Tien and Chiaotzu are supposed to have become farmers, aside from all the training.

Gohan and Goten clearly don't share their father's insatiable appetite for training and fighting. Goku is a simple man and fighting and training is pretty much all he has, but his children are part human. I think it is completely realistic that during "peace times", such as after Cell's defeat, Gohan would attend school, and then continue his education after they all defeated Majin Buu, and then eventually settle down and start a family. Growing up during "peace times", why wouldn't Goten grow into something that more resembles a typical teenager? It is what most humans do.

Maybe I'm slightly influenced by the fact that I've never been the biggest Gohan or Goten fan, but I see little reason for them to continue training and fighting like their father, for no reason. It just isn't in their character.
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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by Gog » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:50 pm

Rukawa11 wrote: It follows that, a decade later, Goten would be the spitting image of a teenage Goku. So how could he turn into such a wuss instead? The only answer is that Goku had neglected training him properly because he was too caught up in himself.
So, you want Goku then? As that's what you seem to be implying. To which I say, oh come on he's already the main character we don't actually need any more of him running around, and killing of his family, and humanity

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:57 pm

... and protecting them.
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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by Rukawa11 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:50 pm

Gog wrote:
Rukawa11 wrote: It follows that, a decade later, Goten would be the spitting image of a teenage Goku. So how could he turn into such a wuss instead? The only answer is that Goku had neglected training him properly because he was too caught up in himself.
So, you want Goku then? As that's what you seem to be implying. To which I say, oh come on he's already the main character we don't actually need any more of him running around, and killing of his family, and humanity
If Goten had grown up to be a dead ringer to Goku in appearance and personality, then hardly anybody would feel that Goku is missing. Not to mention that you can always show Goku in the afterlife every now and then.

Goten aside, the question here is: why would Toriyama have Goku pass the torch to Gohan during the Cell fight (Even the episode was titled: "The One who takes over as the strongest - his name is Son Gohan), then sacrifice himself against Cell, then express his desire not to return to life because he attracts villains to earth ---- only to return to life in the later part of Majin Boo Saga and reclaim his place as the main character? (and in doing so, receiving a ridiculous amount of screen-time that he didn't even have in the Saiyan or Freeza arcs)
For those who think "Goku never lost his place as the main character," I beg to differ. It was obvious that the story was being told from Gohan's perspective from after Cell's death all the way to Gohan being blasted away by Fat Boo - only afterwards does the balance start shifting toward Goku again.

If we disregard the episodes where Gohan went to High School and became the Great Saiyaman (since he was obviously the central character here with Goku's complete absence), I believe he still retained his position as the Point-of-View character even after Goku was reintroduced for the Tenkaichi Budokai. Before Videl's flying lesson episodes, I vividly remember the narrator saying something like: "With his father and the entire Z team participating in the tournament, Gohan's training begins." When Goku returns for one day and the referee/ announcer says "I know you guys beat Cell, not Mr. Satan." We saw Gohan saying to himself: "So there are some people who know how great my father is." With Goku being right there, why were we still getting access only to Gohan's inner thoughts? And that still leaves Gohan's constant "I don't want my identity to be discovered or I'll have to quit school" brooding that was scattered all over the Tenkaichi tournament episodes. It genuinely felt that, while Goku was indeed there, it was really Gohan's story that we're following.

And what do the Gohan-centered scenes from the "We Gotta Power" Opening and "We Were Angels" Ending tell you? It may not be strange nowadays to have scenes from an Opening or an Ending focusing on someone other than the hero, because Op's and Ed's change every 13 or 26 episodes, but with the 2nd DBZ opening and ending were set to cover the entire series from after the Cell Arc, why would Gohan feature that heavily in them if he wasn't supposed to be the hero?

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:09 pm

I think that Gohan would make an excellent main character. The problem is that way too much time passed with Goku being the center of attention. We got all of Dragon Ball and three arcs where Goku was the main protagonist. How would anyone expect an audience who witnessed Goku growing up and spent years with the character, to suddenly be okay when another protagonist takes over?

However, I'd be fine with Gohan as the main character. When I was younger, I didn't appreciate Gohan. I'm just not a fan of kid characters. I don't know what it is, but I just have no interest in children's adventures, which is why I wasn't so interested in Gohan as a character. With Goku in Dragon Ball, I guess since he wasn't really dealing with typical things like having parents or studying, etc., his story didn't bug me. But yeah, I hated Gohan. I really liked it when he grew up, but of course, that started the downward spiral of his character. Now as an adult, I can appreciate all of the characters in their own way, so with a fresh perspective, I really do like Gohan as a kid and think that he'd make a great main character.

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:55 pm

Rukawa11 wrote:
Gog wrote:
Rukawa11 wrote:
And what do the Gohan-centered scenes from the "We Gotta Power" Opening and "We Were Angels" Ending tell you? It may not be strange nowadays to have scenes from an Opening or an Ending focusing on someone other than the hero, because Op's and Ed's change every 13 or 26 episodes, but with the 2nd DBZ opening and ending were set to cover the entire series from after the Cell Arc, why would Gohan feature that heavily in them if he wasn't supposed to be the hero?
That's all Toei. Allllllllllllllllllll Toei. Toriyama doesnt animate the show, you know?


And I think its the contrary. Without Goku his training went to shit, because no one is as battle crazy as Goku. I dont mind, because I dont get too attached to what is basically a Toei invention that Gohan would be the new hero. And there's a looooooooooooooooooong article analyzing and telling why the whole "Toriyama wanted Gohan to be the new hero" is bullshit.

You shouldnt trust the opening's too much, is what I'm saying.
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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by SansrivaaL » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:13 pm

Gohan has all the traits to become a main character, at one point you'd really see him as the main character because of his flaws, while Goku's just... his father that he so looks up to, its just that in this franchise, a flippant guy like Goku is more suited for the role than Gohan.

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by Rukawa11 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:52 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:How would anyone expect an audience who witnessed Goku growing up and spent years with the character, to suddenly be okay when another protagonist takes over?
True, which is why I believe that Toriyama's fondness with time-skipping should've stopped when Gohan was about ten or eleven. That way Goku could go on to be the main character without the sheer awkwardness of having a 16-17-year old son who's as big as he is, and who throughout the Boo Arc was expected to save the planet (like he did with Cell) before he was:
(1) Cruelly beaten to a pulp by Super Boo. (2) Absorbed by Piccolo-Boo. (3) Died when Kid Boo destroyed earth. (4) Became relatively weak (or super weak if we count DBGT) after being the strongest unfused character in DBZ.
Doesn't anyone think the four points above almost seemed forced in order for Goku to return as the hero/ savior and not have Gohan competing with him to save the planet like things were in Cell and Boo Arc?
SansrivaaL wrote:Gohan has all the traits to become a main character, at one point you'd really see him as the main character because of his flaws, while Goku's just... his father that he so looks up to, its just that in this franchise, a flippant guy like Goku is more suited for the role than Gohan.
When we first caught a glimpse of Gohan as a 16-17 year old, I didn't think he differed that much from Goku. They're not exactly similar since Gohan is educated and doesn't like to train, but their naivety in real-life situations is almost on the same level. We certainly wouldn't have lost any humor if Gohan had permanently taken over, because the situations he got himself in during the Saiyaman/ High School arc were quite funny, and what little scenes he had with Videl were more interesting than Goku and Chi Chi's.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:And I think its the contrary. Without Goku his training went to shit, because no one is as battle crazy as Goku.
Gohan not being battle crazy didn't stop him from surpassing Goku and Vegeta in the Cell arc, and again in Majin Boo arc. His inborn powers enable him to reach and surpass Goku and Vegeta without training as much as they do. So if this had occurred twice in DBZ, why shouldn't it happen again? My theory has always been that it was imperative for Toriyama/ Toei to weaken Gohan and significantly reduce his screen-time after Boo to ensure that Goku can never be overtaken again. Maybe, just maybe, having Goku and Vegeta look on helplessly as SSJ2 Gohan pummeled Cell wasn't appreciated by many, and this had come to Toriyama's attention a long time ago.

Also, if we temporarily disregard whether it's Goku or Gohan who defeats the villain in the end, the two characters have shared an equal amount of screen-time from the beginning of DBZ. In fact, Gohan had a more active role in the Saiyan and Namek Arcs as Goku was training elsewhere (and away from the main event) most of the time before showing up to save the day. My question is, what does Gohan failing to beat Boo and Goku succeeding to do so have to do with who gets more screen-time later on? How'd Goku suddenly start getting more screen-time than he ever did in all of DBZ? (it was like the original Dragonball). I can't see Gohan giving up fighting and marrying Videl having anything to do with it. Gohan has always given up fighting after a villain is beaten. He wasn't exactly training after Freeza or after Cell.

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:18 am

Is it possible that the seven year time skip hurt Gohan? I think that generally, anyone who I've spoken to looked very fondly at Super Saiyan 2 Gohan defeating Cell. The next time we see Gohan, he's looking totally different and after a fun little bit of him as Super Saiyan against some robbers and the possible fun of seeing him in high school, he gets all silly with the Great Saiyaman stuff. Next thing you know, he's doing poses and coming up with stupid catch phrases. Do you think that if we didn't go from the awesome Super Saiyan 2 Gohan to silly Gohan, that things would have turned out better?

I really think that there was an opportunity there, which was really hard, but then to kind of take the character that was on the fast track and swerve him into a ditch, was a bit jarring.

I also think that Gohan from future Trunks's timeline could have easily been a great main protagonist. I feel like you could really buy him in that role. I'm not saying that I prefer that version of Gohan to the one in the Boo arc, as I think it might be too dark, but still.

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by NitroEX » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:59 am

Rukawa11 wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:How would anyone expect an audience who witnessed Goku growing up and spent years with the character, to suddenly be okay when another protagonist takes over?
True, which is why I believe that Toriyama's fondness with time-skipping should've stopped when Gohan was about ten or eleven. That way Goku could go on to be the main character without the sheer awkwardness of having a 16-17-year old son who's as big as he is, and who throughout the Boo Arc was expected to save the planet (like he did with Cell) before he was:
(1) Cruelly beaten to a pulp by Super Boo. (2) Absorbed by Piccolo-Boo. (3) Died when Kid Boo destroyed earth. (4) Became relatively weak (or super weak if we count DBGT) after being the strongest unfused character in DBZ.
Doesn't anyone think the four points above almost seemed forced in order for Goku to return as the hero/ savior and not have Gohan competing with him to save the planet like things were in Cell and Boo Arc?
Yes, it felt very forced and I think a lot of it has to do with Toriyama botching Gohan's character development in the Buu arc. After failing to write the character in a compelling way it seems as though he needed to fall back on Goku as his plan B. His unwillingness to continue the manga might've also affected the way the story turned out but at this point I don't think we'll ever get the true story, even from the man himself. To come out now and point out flaws in his own story would be a bad business move for him and would fly in the face of not only the manga's conclusion but all of the Goku-centric supplemental material which has come out since the manga ended. Toei has worked to retroactively change the perception of these characters to reflect their money making status (with Goku being at the top) and that's the way it's going to remain. Although, for how long that train will last is anyone's guess, especially with Goku's reception in Super seeming quite mixed along with the fact that he has virtually no room left to grow as a character (aside from changing hair colour). I personally would've thought there'd be more longevity in the Star Wars approach of shifting protagonists but that's just me. Anyway, thats a discussion for another day.

Although the ending of Z was a satisfying conclusion it still felt like an unearned victory for Goku because up until that point in the Buu arc he had been given a mentor role, he even states himself that he wanted the younger generation to succeed but when Gotenks (the red herring) doesn't manage to do that it leaves the door open for Gohan to redeem his past defeats (Babidi's men, Dabura & Majin Buu) and finally reclaim the title of Earth's protector... but that never happened. Instead, we got a version of events in which Goku comes back to life and saves the day for him. It works in the sense that Goku is arguably the most popular character in the story and him coming back to life is something fans at the time probably wanted, but it also feels completely unearned and detached from the first half of the story arc which focuses on a flawed version of Gohan who seems to be set up to redeem himself at the end in a classic coming of age story (becoming a man, overcoming an obstacle & getting the girl). I can almost see this originally being set up as Toriyama's way of mirroring the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai in which Goku essentially does just that, he becomes a man, defeats the villain and gets the girl.

That plan seems to have gone out the window at some point during the Buu arc and I doubt we'll ever get insight as to exactly where and why it happened but the clues are certainly there for those of us paying attention. I think it's harder for some fans to admit it though, either because of their strong dislike of Gohan as a character or just the current perception Gohan has now, which has been so heavily influenced by the supplemental material such as GT, Super, and the movies. All of that stuff has put Gohan in a severely diminished role, almost as if to erase any notion that a character other than Goku could be a protagonist in Dragon Ball.
Rukawa11 wrote: And what do the Gohan-centered scenes from the "We Gotta Power" Opening and "We Were Angels" Ending tell you? It may not be strange nowadays to have scenes from an Opening or an Ending focusing on someone other than the hero, because Op's and Ed's change every 13 or 26 episodes, but with the 2nd DBZ opening and ending were set to cover the entire series from after the Cell Arc, why would Gohan feature that heavily in them if he wasn't supposed to be the hero?
This arguably goes back even further than that. Youtube channel Mother's Basement did a great video dissecting DBZ's first opening sequence and from that, we already see hints of Gohan being set up as a special character alongside Goku. Obviously, for those of us growing up with the US & Canadian versions of DBZ, the original intent of this intro was completely lost due to heavy editing. That may have arguably also played a factor in Goku & Gohan's perception in the west, just something to think about.

Anyway, I'm not sure what caused the sudden shift of direction over at Toei after Z concluded but my guess would be that Toriyama no longer cared much at that point and that basically gave Toei free reign to do whatever they wished with his characters... which just so happens to mean that Gohan gets shat on and portrayed in the blandest way possible.

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:27 am

doesn't manage to do that it leaves the door open for Gohan to redeem his past defeats (Babidi's men, Dabura & Majin Buu) and finally reclaim the title of Earth's protector... but that never happened
It's not the sort of story about being Earth's greatest protector. I get your point about Goku being the hero at the end doesn't feel as earned, but Gohan being the protagonist doesn't feel right. Vegeta's epiphany at the end wouldn't have worked as well had Gohan been in that spot.
... as if to erase any notion that a character other than Goku could be a protagonist in Dragon Ball.
He tried, but Goku fits the tone of DB much better than Gohan.
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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by Rukawa11 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:33 pm

NitroEX wrote:Although the ending of Z was a satisfying conclusion it still felt like an unearned victory for Goku because up until that point in the Buu arc he had been given a mentor role, he even states himself that he wanted the younger generation to succeed but when Gotenks (the red herring) doesn't manage to do that it leaves the door open for Gohan to redeem his past defeats (Babidi's men, Dabura & Majin Buu) and finally reclaim the title of Earth's protector...
This little paragraph has summed up a sentiment I haven't been able to express for eons.
NitroEX wrote:I think it's harder for some fans to admit it though, either because of their strong dislike of Gohan as a character or just the current perception Gohan has now, which has been so heavily influenced by the supplemental material such as GT, Super, and the movies.
The one exception would be Movie 13. While Goku does indeed save the day, the movie starts out with Gohan in class, then there's the suicide attempt he prevents with Videl, and then there's his short fight against Hirudigan where he discovers its weakness. This felt like early DBZ where Gohan gets more screen-time than Goku but the latter finishes off the villain.
NitroEX wrote:Anyway, I'm not sure what caused the sudden shift of direction over at Toei after Z concluded but my guess would be that Toriyama no longer cared much at that point and that basically gave Toei free reign to do whatever they wished with his characters... which just so happens to mean that Gohan gets shat on and portrayed in the blandest way possible.
What I don't get is why Gohan's screen-time took a nosedive just because Goku was back as the one who defeats the villains.
ABED wrote:I get your point about Goku being the hero at the end doesn't feel as earned, but Gohan being the protagonist doesn't feel right. Vegeta's epiphany at the end wouldn't have worked as well had Gohan been in that spot.
There was enough epiphany in Vegeta blowing himself up to kill Boo imo. Yes, his declaring Goku as No. 1 was one of the most memorable scenes in the Boo arc, but who'd want Goku coming back to life just to get Vegeta's vote of confidence?
ABED wrote:He tried, but Goku fits the tone of DB much better than Gohan.
There's no question about that if we're talking about pre-Boo arc Goku. But as long as the guy stepped down against Cell, declared his son as his successor, and retained his mentor-like role for a good spell afterwards, there's always gonna be an awkwardness in Goku being the main character whether it's DBGT or Super. Because quite simply, Goku and Gohan have shared the exact level of importance and screen-time from the beginning of DBZ up until Boo absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo. For Goku to suddenly be presented like this was in DB (where no one was nearly as important as he was) is unreasonable. And the pains that Toriyama/ Toei went through in stripping Gohan of everything that made him significant for that very purpose is just absurd.

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by Rukawa11 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:36 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:Do you think that if we didn't go from the awesome Super Saiyan 2 Gohan to silly Gohan, that things would have turned out better?
Cho/ Mystic/ Kaioshin-Powered-up Gohan was just as badass as SSJ2 imo. The only problem is that his newfound charisma never lasted long. It was sort of like Vegeta owning 2nd form Cell only to get pummeled by Perfect Cell a few episodes later. But we've gotten used to seeing Vegeta like that (Rekoom, Freeza, Android 18)[/quote]
Rukawa11 wrote:
NitroEX wrote:Although the ending of Z was a satisfying conclusion it still felt like an unearned victory for Goku because up until that point in the Buu arc he had been given a mentor role, he even states himself that he wanted the younger generation to succeed but when Gotenks (the red herring) doesn't manage to do that it leaves the door open for Gohan to redeem his past defeats (Babidi's men, Dabura & Majin Buu) and finally reclaim the title of Earth's protector...
This little paragraph has summed up a sentiment I haven't been able to express for eons.
NitroEX wrote:I think it's harder for some fans to admit it though, either because of their strong dislike of Gohan as a character or just the current perception Gohan has now, which has been so heavily influenced by the supplemental material such as GT, Super, and the movies.
The one exception would be Movie 13. While Goku does indeed save the day, the movie starts out with Gohan in class, then there's the suicide attempt he prevents with Videl, and then there's his short fight against Hirudigan where he discovers its weakness. This felt like early DBZ where Gohan gets more screen-time than Goku but the latter finishes off the villain.
NitroEX wrote:Anyway, I'm not sure what caused the sudden shift of direction over at Toei after Z concluded but my guess would be that Toriyama no longer cared much at that point and that basically gave Toei free reign to do whatever they wished with his characters... which just so happens to mean that Gohan gets shat on and portrayed in the blandest way possible.
What I don't get is why Gohan's screen-time took a nosedive just because Goku was back as the one who defeats the villains.
ABED wrote:I get your point about Goku being the hero at the end doesn't feel as earned, but Gohan being the protagonist doesn't feel right. Vegeta's epiphany at the end wouldn't have worked as well had Gohan been in that spot.
There was enough epiphany in Vegeta blowing himself up to kill Boo imo. Yes, his declaring Goku as No. 1 was one of the most memorable scenes in the Boo arc, but who'd want Goku coming back to life just to get Vegeta's vote of confidence?
ABED wrote:He tried, but Goku fits the tone of DB much better than Gohan.
There's no question about that if we're talking about pre-Boo arc Goku. But as long as the guy stepped down against Cell, declared his son as his successor, and retained his mentor-like role for a good spell afterwards, there's always gonna be an awkwardness in Goku being the main character whether it's DBGT or Super. Because quite simply, Goku and Gohan have shared the exact level of importance and screen-time from the beginning of DBZ up until Boo absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo. For Goku to suddenly be presented like this was in DB (where no one was nearly as important as he was) is unreasonable. And the pains that Toriyama/ Toei went through in stripping Gohan of everything that made him significant for that very purpose is just absurd.

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by Rukawa11 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:37 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:Do you think that if we didn't go from the awesome Super Saiyan 2 Gohan to silly Gohan, that things would have turned out better?
Cho/ Mystic/ Kaioshin-Powered-up Gohan was just as badass as SSJ2 imo. The only problem is that his newfound charisma never lasted long. It was sort of like Vegeta owning 2nd form Cell only to get pummeled by Perfect Cell a few episodes later. But we've gotten used to seeing Vegeta like that (Rekoom, Freeza, Android 18)
NitroEX wrote:Although the ending of Z was a satisfying conclusion it still felt like an unearned victory for Goku because up until that point in the Buu arc he had been given a mentor role, he even states himself that he wanted the younger generation to succeed but when Gotenks (the red herring) doesn't manage to do that it leaves the door open for Gohan to redeem his past defeats (Babidi's men, Dabura & Majin Buu) and finally reclaim the title of Earth's protector...
This little paragraph has summed up a sentiment I haven't been able to express for eons.
NitroEX wrote:I think it's harder for some fans to admit it though, either because of their strong dislike of Gohan as a character or just the current perception Gohan has now, which has been so heavily influenced by the supplemental material such as GT, Super, and the movies.
The one exception would be Movie 13. While Goku does indeed save the day, the movie starts out with Gohan in class, then there's the suicide attempt he prevents with Videl, and then there's his short fight against Hirudigan where he discovers its weakness. This felt like early DBZ where Gohan gets more screen-time than Goku but the latter finishes off the villain.
NitroEX wrote:Anyway, I'm not sure what caused the sudden shift of direction over at Toei after Z concluded but my guess would be that Toriyama no longer cared much at that point and that basically gave Toei free reign to do whatever they wished with his characters... which just so happens to mean that Gohan gets shat on and portrayed in the blandest way possible.
What I don't get is why Gohan's screen-time took a nosedive just because Goku was back as the one who defeats the villains.
ABED wrote:I get your point about Goku being the hero at the end doesn't feel as earned, but Gohan being the protagonist doesn't feel right. Vegeta's epiphany at the end wouldn't have worked as well had Gohan been in that spot.
There was enough epiphany in Vegeta blowing himself up to kill Boo imo. Yes, his declaring Goku as No. 1 was one of the most memorable scenes in the Boo arc, but who'd want Goku coming back to life just to get Vegeta's vote of confidence?
ABED wrote:He tried, but Goku fits the tone of DB much better than Gohan.
There's no question about that if we're talking about pre-Boo arc Goku. But as long as the guy stepped down against Cell, declared his son as his successor, and retained his mentor-like role for a good spell afterwards, there's always gonna be an awkwardness in Goku being the main character whether it's DBGT or Super. Because quite simply, Goku and Gohan have shared the exact level of importance and screen-time from the beginning of DBZ up until Boo absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo. For Goku to suddenly be presented like this was in DB (where no one was nearly as important as he was) is unreasonable. And the pains that Toriyama/ Toei went through in stripping Gohan of everything that made him significant for that very purpose is just absurd.

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:55 pm

Honestly, I think he made the right decision to bring Goku back.
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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:58 pm

There was enough epiphany in Vegeta blowing himself up to kill Boo imo. Yes, his declaring Goku as No. 1 was one of the most memorable scenes in the Boo arc, but who'd want Goku coming back to life just to get Vegeta's vote of confidence?
I would. Vegeta's arc still doesn't feel complete until he admits without reservation and insecurity that Goku is the best. I'll take that over forcing Gohan into a role he doesn't belong just for the sake of completing an arc that wasn't that compelling.
Goku and Gohan have shared the exact level of importance and screen-time
Maybe screen time, but not importance.
For Goku to suddenly be presented like this was in DB (where no one was nearly as important as he was) is unreasonable.
It's all Dragon Ball and it's still Goku's story. What is unreasonable is trying to force Gohan into a role he doesn't belong. Even in early DB where Goku was clearly the lead, other characters were still very important and got development. Making Goku the undeniable lead isn't a backwards step.
And the pains that Toriyama/ Toei went through in stripping Gohan of everything that made him significant for that very purpose is just absurd.
What's more absurd is the only reason Gohan was ever in that spot was because he constantly conveniently had more hidden potential that could be unlocked. It's not as compelling as someone who is making themselves better.
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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by Yellowhex616 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:11 am

Deathbringer wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:09 pm So here are my thoughts on why Toriyama thought Gohan wasn't suited to the role of main character for the series, I'll start with the most obvious thing about him:

He doesn't have a reason to fight, (I'm not talking about right now in the story, I'm talking about back at the beginning of the Boo saga when Toriyama considered making him the new main character to take over from Goku) I say this because it's actually a very important part of most of the main characters in Shonen action series, they all have something they want to achieve and fight for, meanwhile Gohan is just a normal teenager who also happens to be the strongest in the universe, his main aspirations are to become a great scholar but that's not gonna cut it in a series like Dragon Ball. Look at Ichigo Kurosaki from Bleach, he was also a normal teenager in the role of a main character in a shonen action series but that didn't work for him as a character outside of the occasional line that he's fighting to protect his friends and family and as the series got worse it also became clear how much of a weak main character Ichigo was, the same would have probably happened to Gohan eventually if the series had gone on past the Boo saga with him as the main character.

This brings me on to my next point of why Goku was revived to take back his role as the main character, obviously we'll never know exactly what Toriyama was thinking at the time but what we do know is that he was probably trying to think of ways he could end the manga (hence why the last chapter has him saying "I think they'll finally let me stop writing now") so I think putting Gohan as the new main character might have been his way of saying that there was gonna be one arc of Gohan in the main role and then he could finally end the series, only for him to realise that the series was probably going to go on for longer than he thought so he brought back Goku to make it easier to write because Goku is the sort of person who would do crazy things like go out there and challenge people whereas Gohan will only ever defend his home from threats when they arise and try to live a normal life.

Alternatively, Toriyama may have just realised that when he wrote Goku at the beginning he intended for him to be the main character but when he wrote Gohan in the Saiyan saga he intended him to be a side character for the time being at least which means that Gohan just isn't main character material because he wasn't created with that in mind. Meanwhile Goku is a perfect fit for the sort of series that Toriyama wanted to write and as I mentioned earlier Goku is the one who goes out there to challenge the gods but Gohan is a stay-at-home scholar and family man who will still stand up and fight when he needs to.

There's also the small aside that Goku is more iconic and famous but that applies more to the modern material like Super than it does to the early Boo saga stuff (even though Goku was also popular then)
I agree with everything you've said about Gohan, but I disagree with your reasoning, Ichigo Kurosaki was a very different character to Gohan. Gohan is far more passive by nature and doesn't seem very driven, other than when it comes to protecting the people he cares about.

Otherwise he doesn't really give a shit about fighting, it works with Ichigo because he's got more natural drive to become stronger! Remember, the hollow Grand Fisher was responsible for killing Ichigo's mother and unlike in DBZ/Super where you've got Dragonballs that can wish people back, Kurosaki doesn't have that same luxury.

So it's a bit of an unfair comparison because it doesn't work under every context. Even though arguably Ichigo fights for the people he loves just like Gohan does, the characters are very different in terms of their motivations and circumstances. Even after Ichigo takes down Aizen, despite the fact that deep down a part of him wanted a normal life, he still retained a passion for being a Soul Reaper!

That became especially true when Kugo Ginjo, the first substitute Soul Reaper, along with the rest of the fullbringers used Ichigo's power and his friends and family for their own gains. Ichigo Kurosaki retained a natural passion for being a Soul Reaper throughout the earlier parts of his life, you can't really say the same thing about Gohan when it comes to fighting.

Ichigo had a passion for taking down hollows because he wanted to prevent anyone else from having to go through what he went through when losing his mother. You do get a version of Gohan who is like that in Future Trunks's alternate timeline, but the present Gohan just didn't have the same motivation for fighting that Ichigo Kurosaki has with relation to being a Soul Reaper!

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Re: Why Toriyama thought Gohan wouldn't make a good main character

Post by mute_proxy » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:23 am

I'm sure people don't care if you agree or disagree with them about something 4 years later :D

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