DB should never have been on a kids channel?

[mecha3000]

"Mecha, what are you on? Dragon Ball on Cartoon Network is what made Dragon Ball a behemoth of a property in the states!" Yeah, I'm aware. But still, I've been thinking about certain aspects of DB such as "Mr. Satan" or "Hell". Such aspects of DB make me feel conflicted about how it can be viewed by younger fans. Imagine a kid wants to purchase DB, but they come from a religious family. Or even with the more perverted parts of the series, I imagine it wouldn't be long until a parent keeps their child from watching the series. Although, I do admit parents most likely are less caring of what their kids watch in this digital I CAN FIND ANYTHING ON INTERNET age.

As far as I know, certain standards are different in Japan - So children can hear "Mr. Satan" or see perverted scenes and it's not as much of a problem as it is here. If this isn't the case, can someone please clear this up for me? Also, doesn't DB air on Fuji TV in Japan? What kind of channel is that and what content airs there? Just curious.

Back to my main point though, I find it ironic that many fans are completely against modern day DB airing on kids networks - But when they were younger, many of them most likely got into the series through a kids network (like CN) and that's where most of their nostalgia probably stems from. But now, they're against a kids channel due to the biased reason that they're older now and can't handle any edits - which is sad because there may be kids today who want to find a way to access a (fairly and hopefully not too extreme) edited dub the same way the older fans did back in the 2000s.

Stuff like this makes me ponder if Dragon Ball had never aired on a kids channel in the states because unlike Japan - It might've been easier to market the series towards an older demographic on a channel like Sci-Fi versus the kids channels. I'm not sure DB would've been as popular on Sci-Fi, but it would've been easier to keep things like Mr. Satan (because even in video games, the name Hercule is still used to market for kids - which confuses me with the whole NO KIDS CHANNEL thing). Even voice actors like Schemmel and Sabat have stated they don't care for edits - So maybe it would be better for DB to remain on more adult-related channels in the future?

And this is coming from someone who still wouldn't mind if DB aired on a kids network in the future.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

Dubs & foreign airings don't matter. DB should have been released as it was in Japan. Subtitles to make sure that the less fortunate can understand what's being said, & Amazon Japan allows for imports of the pure content. Pretty much, what's past is past, & most fans on this site are just glad to have DB readily available in a way that legally supports the publishers by way of their ownership. DB, like most anime, is a foreign product that I think most people want as untouched as possible, & the only relevance any previous airings have is how they affect the beliefs of the overall audience.

"The dub only matters because it was bad & made millions of people allergic to the sub. DB has nothing to do with us, let the Japanese be Japanese." That, in a nutshell, is I think why your rather well-thought-out post has no answer, unfortunately.

[TheBlackPaladin]

This has been--and always will be--the biggest problem with marketing Dragon Ball outside of Japan: it's a kids show, but it's a Japanese kids show, and Japan has different cultural standards about what's acceptable for kids and what isn't.

So on the one hand, it's definitely an adventure show geared primarily towards children, so it doesn't really fit on a network aimed at adults. On the other hand, it has a lot of violence, some light nudity, and terms like "Satan," "death," and "killing," so it it doesn't really fit on a network aimed at children either. For that reason, most TV networks outside of Japan are screwed on this issue. The only real way to get around this issue is to try and find the closest thing possible to a halfway point.

I'm sure many, many, many kids across the English-speaking market wouldn't be scarred at all by Dragon Ball and that many, many, many parents who still love their children and care about their well-being wouldn't have a problem with them watching the uncut version of the show. The thing is, that's not who TV networks have to worry about. When it comes to setting standards for what can and can't be shown on a kids show in the English-speaking market, TV networks are essentially mandated to edit their shows under the assumption that they will be viewed by the most easily-offended, lawsuit-happy parents imaginable. It's them that the TV networks have to worry about.

That having been said, I think the Nicktoons--and for that matter, even the CW4Kids--edited airings of Kai were proof that you can edit a show and still present it in a way that's true to the spirit of the original product. Sure, there was a fair deal of visual censoring and toning down of the language, but the scripts were still faithful, the plot was unchanged, and the original music was still kept. Even with the toning down of language involving death and killing, FUNimation still did a great job of coming up with toned-down dialogue that didn't sound corny and still implied death (and in some cases, I think the alternative dialogue where characters like Freeza merely hinted at what they were going to do came across as more creepy and unsettling than the uncut dialogue where he flat-out said he was going to kill somebody). I doubt 4Kids cared, but I was always curious if they ever picked up on the fact that Kai--the highest-rated show on the Toonzai time block--was also the dub that changed the least, in effect squashing their argument that a show "needed to be Americanized if it was going to work over here."

So, while there will never be a perfect solution beyond just buying the show on home video, as far as TV networks are concerned, I still think a kids network is where Dragon Ball should air.

[8000 Saiyan]

Dubs & foreign airings don't matter. DB should have been released as it was in Japan. Subtitles to make sure that the less fortunate can understand what's being said, & Amazon Japan allows for imports of the pure content. Pretty much, what's past is past, & most fans on this site are just glad to have DB readily available in a way that legally supports the publishers by way of their ownership. DB, like most anime, is a foreign product that I think most people want as untouched as possible, & the only relevance any previous airings have is how they affect the beliefs of the overall audience.

"The dub only matters because it was bad & made millions of people allergic to the sub. DB has nothing to do with us, let the Japanese be Japanese." That, in a nutshell, is I think why your rather well-thought-out post has no answer, unfortunately.

Aren't you the one who supports dubs, or is this contradicting yourself again?

This has been--and always will be--the biggest problem with marketing Dragon Ball outside of Japan: it's a kids show, but it's a Japanese kids show, and Japan has different cultural standards about what's acceptable for kids and what isn't.

I find it ironic how Dragon Ball, despite its violence, doesn't affect Japanese kids, yet the Japanese dub of X-Men: The Animated Series needs to be toned down with puns because the voice director thinks X-Men is too dark for them to watch. The puns weren't necessary, when the original version had its cheesy humor.

[laserkid]

Ratings information in the past have shown children can and do watch adult swim anime, in particular they tuned into Inuyasha in pretty heavy numbers. Pair this with the fact DBZ Kai, and soon Super are at the front end of the Toonami block, and I think it's fair to say kids have seen the uncut Kai dub on TV - and will see Super and Kai: The Final Chapters.

Is it as visible as it would be on Toonami of old? No, but let's not kid ourselves, NOTHING has that level of visibility anymore. Broadcast children animation blocks are dead, all we have left is a handful of children animation channels - Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon, and Disney XD. Of these three channels, the way they're structured, I don't think Dragon Ball would do well on any of them during the day. Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network have basically toned themselves away from action cartoons for the most part (with some exceptions). As for Disney XD, while they definitely seem to care about action cartoons, they seem content to run the things that they own (Rebels, Spiderman, Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, ect). Also, let's not forget Disney XD tried the anime thing with Naruto Shippuden and it did NOT do well. You can (rightfully) argue this was due to the heavy censorship it received, but what makes you think Dragon Ball would fare any better?

All of that also excludes the fact the market is inherently different than it was when Dragon Ball first came onto the american Anime market. Outside of Toonami's resurgence no one goes to television for anime. People tend to watch online via Crunchyroll, Netflix, FUNimation Now, or other streaming providers. You want kids to see Dragon Ball Super? Make sure it's on streaming platforms, and they will see it. It's a mighty different time than it was back in 1995-1998 when Dragon Ball was entering the market.

Anime can and do see popularity by streaming alone, and the anime home video market is a lot more robust than it was back then (despite the heavy setbacks it took back in 2006). Having a TV airing helps a ton of course (as it always did), but outside of Toonami there's really nowhere that will show anime on TV in this day and age. This isn't because America got all mean spirited and took a hatred to anime or any such nonsense, it's simply a reflection of the change in the market. Broadcast TV children blocks are dead, so there's no need to have a bunch of imported children's cartoons to fill them up with. Online video streaming is HUGE not just for anime, but for television in general and has made serious shifts in how all television is shown, not just anime. So while I have no personal problems with Dragon Ball being on children's programming (either in uncut form, or as a separate cut release exclusive to the TV release ala 4Kids DBZ Kai), I also realistically don't see it happening.

[90sDBZ]

I think it's pretty essential that it airs on kids channels in order to keep long term interest in the franchise alive through a younger generation. Plenty of us first saw it as kids and turned out just fine. Unfortunately here in the UK TV networks seem to have an ignorant attitude towards anime and have deemed Dragonball Super "too violent" to be aired, which is absurd considering Z aired for a full 5 years straight in the early 2000s and was a huge hit.

As far as older fans begrudging censorship is concerned I really don't see any issue as long as an uncut release is also readily available.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

Aren't you the one who supports dubs, or is this contradicting yourself again?

This has been--and always will be--the biggest problem with marketing Dragon Ball outside of Japan: it's a kids show, but it's a Japanese kids show, and Japan has different cultural standards about what's acceptable for kids and what isn't.

I find it ironic how Dragon Ball, despite its violence, doesn't affect Japanese kids, yet the Japanese dub of X-Men: The Animated Series needs to be toned down with puns because the voice director thinks X-Men is too dark for them to watch

TBP, that's the issue with localization in general, I think. 8000, yeah, this confuses me to no end. I guess we have different ideas of what "dark" is. There's probably a far better explanation for this phenomenon. & yeah, I was attempting some subtle sarcasm/cynical Devil's advocate stuff there. I even used quotes at the end. I do it out of frustration tbh.

[TheBlackPaladin]

People tend to watch online via Crunchyroll, Netflix, FUNimation Now, or other streaming providers. You want kids to see Dragon Ball Super? Make sure it's on streaming platforms, and they will see it. It's a mighty different time than it was back in 1995-1998 when Dragon Ball was entering the market.

Anime can and do see popularity by streaming alone...

Definitely. I think TV will still be around for the imminent future, but relatively soon within our lifetimes, I think we're gonna see "traditional" TV networks disappearing as more and more internet-based TV networks (Netflix, Hulu, etc.) begin to arise. Who knows, maybe one day, one of these providers will be in a position to stream all kinds of shows....like, and I'm just randomly spit-balling here, a certain Canadian dub of a certain show that certain Canadian TV networks rejected.*

*Almost definitely not, but I guy can dream.

[8000 Saiyan]

Aren't you the one who supports dubs, or is this contradicting yourself again?

This has been--and always will be--the biggest problem with marketing Dragon Ball outside of Japan: it's a kids show, but it's a Japanese kids show, and Japan has different cultural standards about what's acceptable for kids and what isn't.

I find it ironic how Dragon Ball, despite its violence, doesn't affect Japanese kids, yet the Japanese dub of X-Men: The Animated Series needs to be toned down with puns because the voice director thinks X-Men is too dark for them to watch

TBP, that's the issue with localization in general, I think. 8000, yeah, this confuses me to no end. I guess we have different ideas of what "dark" is. There's probably a far better explanation for this phenomenon. & yeah, I was attempting some subtle sarcasm/cynical Devil's advocate stuff there. I even used quotes at the end. I do it out of frustration tbh.

The Japanese can be hypocritical sometimes, much like Americans.

[Hellspawn28]

Toei views Dragon Ball as a series for kids and would want the series to be on a kids network in the 90's. That's how most of their shows went on kids networks (Digimon on Fox Kids, Ultimate Muscle & One Piece on Fox Box & CN and Sailor Moon on CN). Sci-Fi mostly played OVA's and movies, so maybe DBZ Movies 1-3 uncut would have work before the Sci-Fi channel anime block died out in 1999 (the same year as MST3k did on Sci-Fi lol). There was Starz with their anime block, but most people didn't have that channel. So doubt it would have work on there during the late 90's.

As bad as the censorship, music changes and dub changes was on Toonami, the show did introduced many millennials to the series and anime. So that was probably one of the good things that came out of DBZ on Toonami back in the day.

[precita]

What I don't get is nothing much in Dragonball Z even needed to be censored?

I can understand removing some of the excessive blood or cutting the nudity scenes, but other than that its no worse than any other action show airing in the U.S. Sure, characters "die" but we see them dead with halo's over their heads so it makes no difference. I mean Saban flat out showed Goku with a halo and didn't edit it, so it didn't matter. We all knew he was dead, despite their "next dimension" lines.

[NitroEX]

I find it ironic how Dragon Ball, despite its violence, doesn't affect Japanese kids, yet the Japanese dub of X-Men: The Animated Series needs to be toned down with puns because the voice director thinks X-Men is too dark for them to watch. The puns weren't necessary, when the original version had its cheesy humor.

In their defence they apparently did produce a separate Japanese dub of that show which aired a few years later (and which was more faithful). It's worth noting that humour often doesn't translate well, if at all so maybe they felt the need to compensate for that in some way. Much like how Saban Entertainment or those within Funimation at the time were responsible for a lot of questionable creative decisions behind their dubs I'd imagine the situation for X-men was similar.

On a semi related note, I find it kind of funny that Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world despite their children's media being deemed too "violent" and offensive by other cultures. You'd expect those bad influences to produce bad people but the opposite seems to be the case.

[Nightmare Wheel]

Aren't you the one who supports dubs, or is this contradicting yourself again?

I find it ironic how Dragon Ball, despite its violence, doesn't affect Japanese kids, yet the Japanese dub of X-Men: The Animated Series needs to be toned down with puns because the voice director thinks X-Men is too dark for them to watch

TBP, that's the issue with localization in general, I think. 8000, yeah, this confuses me to no end. I guess we have different ideas of what "dark" is. There's probably a far better explanation for this phenomenon. & yeah, I was attempting some subtle sarcasm/cynical Devil's advocate stuff there. I even used quotes at the end. I do it out of frustration tbh.

The Japanese can be hypocritical sometimes, much like Americans.

Saying the actions of one particular voice actor means "The Japanese" are hypocritical is pretty silly. I doubt there's some set in stone guideline that all voice directors must follow for what is and isn't appropriate for children.

[mecha3000]

I just want to clarify that I don't mind Toonami because that's where I predicted Super would end up airing. But I predicted Super would air on Toonami AND A KIDS CHANNEL. If the kids channel thing also doesn't end up happening sometime in 2017, then it baffles me that in official merchandise: Hercule is still a thing - despite the fact that Super could end up only being a Toonami thing.

I know I might be making a big deal over nothing, but it's like: "Funimation or Toei, just choose your demographic already." Seriously, I find it annoying how official merchandise is still being marketed for kids (Hercule still used in games) but Mr. Satan is used on TV and uncut. It's like, "Why not just go with Mr. Satan for the games from now on?" It just seems kind of messed up to market games for kids, but the series not for kids. I don't know, perhaps Mr. Satan can be said on a kids channel if no one makes a big deal of it.

I have no idea how this whole situation should be handled unless the kids network thing still happens (Although, there's still the case of the uncut releases, but I suppose kids can just record the edited dub on TV and then purchase the games only). Honestly, I still wouldn't mind Disney XD because I find it less cringe than Nick (something I've probably stated a million times by now, haha)

[Thouser]

I don't care if it's censored on TV as long as I can get the uncut version on DVD/BD. The problem with, for example, 4kids' dubs is not only were the changes stupid, but you could only buy the censored versions (except for some of Yu-Gi-Oh! I think).

I never had a problem with Popo being blue on the CW airing of Kai, or whatever the big controversy was last time. Other countries had it much worse, like in the original Korean dub of Z where they had to paint over Yajirobe's sandals because they didn't want to show anything related to Japanese culture.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

Saying the actions of one particular voice actor means "The Japanese" are hypocritical is pretty silly. I doubt there's some set in stone guideline that all voice directors must follow for what is and isn't appropriate for children.

Assuming you made a typo, but you never know...

[Nightmare Wheel]

Saying the actions of one particular voice actor means "The Japanese" are hypocritical is pretty silly. I doubt there's some set in stone guideline that all voice directors must follow for what is and isn't appropriate for children.

Assuming you made a typo, but you never know...

Nah, just a typo. My bad.

[Robo4900]

I've always thought the BLT/Ocean dub of Dragon Ball would have worked super well as a prime-time kids' show. BLT adapted the show really well, with good voice acting, reasonably accurate dialogue, and not too intrusive censorship, and in my opinion, that version of the show not being given the chance it deserved was one of the biggest disservices done to the franchise in the west. Having a generation of kids grow up on BLT's Dragon Ball, which would later segue into Z, would have made Dragon Ball much bigger than it ended up. Rather than being seen as a dumb action show, it would be seen as a classic cartoon, like it is in Japan.

Of course, then we might have never got an uncut dub of Dragon Ball(Although maybe when Kai was released they'd do that), but as one door opens, another closes.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

I've always thought the BLT/Ocean dub of Dragon Ball would have worked super well as a prime-time kids' show. BLT adapted the show really well, with good voice acting, reasonably accurate dialogue, and not too intrusive censorship, and in my opinion, that version of the show not being given the chance it deserved was one of the biggest disservices done to the franchise in the west. Having a generation of kids grow up on BLT's Dragon Ball, which would later segue into Z, would have made Dragon Ball much bigger than it ended up. Rather than being seen as a dumb action show, it would be seen as a classic cartoon, like it is in Japan.

Of course, then we might have never got an uncut dub of Dragon Ball(Although maybe when Kai was released they'd do that), but as one door opens, another closes.

That's an incredibly underrated point. Although in general, there isn't enough advertising/market space that Japanese companies have to let that come about. That is the biggest reason anime is a super-niche thing over here, while in Japan it's more equivalent to our Marvel/DC stuff - not super-mainstream, but respected among plenty of artists.Attracts pretty major-league VAs for a lot of them.

[8000 Saiyan]

I've always thought the BLT/Ocean dub of Dragon Ball would have worked super well as a prime-time kids' show. BLT adapted the show really well, with good voice acting, reasonably accurate dialogue, and not too intrusive censorship, and in my opinion, that version of the show not being given the chance it deserved was one of the biggest disservices done to the franchise in the west. Having a generation of kids grow up on BLT's Dragon Ball, which would later segue into Z, would have made Dragon Ball much bigger than it ended up. Rather than being seen as a dumb action show, it would be seen as a classic cartoon, like it is in Japan.

Of course, then we might have never got an uncut dub of Dragon Ball(Although maybe when Kai was released they'd do that), but as one door opens, another closes.

That's an incredibly underrated point. Although in general, there isn't enough advertising/market space that Japanese companies have to let that come about. That is the biggest reason anime is a super-niche thing over here, while in Japan it's more equivalent to our Marvel/DC stuff - not super-mainstream, but respected among plenty of artists.Attracts pretty major-league VAs for a lot of them.

I'm sure anime is much more mainstream in Japan than America.