Is filler canon(ical)?

[floofychan333]

I've noticed when things happen in filler they are often dismissed as simply being "filler" by users here. So is filler non-canon? Or is some of it canon? Or all of it?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It's not useful for setting precedent.

[Bruma rabu]

If it doesn't mess with any thing around it why not?

[Ki Breaker]

No, it isn't..
In case of super, consider what you want as Canon, it's technically the full anime that's Canon..

[Cipher]

It's not useful for setting precedent.

This is the only salient part of the discussion surrounding "filler."

In both the original run and Super, you have Toei drafting stories between, or within, arcs, which may apply to their universe in terms of small references, but are unlikely to impact Toriyama's drafting future material in any major way. So it becomes useful, in a way, to distinguish them in discussion.

[Kendamu]

A lot of the time with anime-only content (filler) there's stuff in it that runs contrary to stuff that happens in the manga-based story. Because of that, a lot of the time filler is dismissed entirely during in-universe arguments as it creates problems with coming to legitimate conclusions in regard to whatever is being debated.

Of course, nowadays all kinds of random nonsense that's contrary to the original manga is being thrown around in Super and the power scaling is (thankfully) completely messed up now. So, I guess that opens things up discussion-wise in ways that we haven't been able to do since the '90s! Dragon Ball debates have always been very... mathematic since I've gotten into the scene. I'm glad that a monkey wrench has been thrown into the Dragon Ball Fan Machine.

[Kunzait_83]

Of course, nowadays all kinds of random nonsense that's contrary to the original manga is being thrown around in Super and the power scaling is (thankfully) completely messed up now. So, I guess that opens things up discussion-wise in ways that we haven't been able to do since the '90s! Dragon Ball debates have always been very... mathematic since I've gotten into the scene. I'm glad that a monkey wrench has been thrown into the Dragon Ball Fan Machine.

Dragon Ball fan discourse was almost never "mathematic" as you put it for the overwhelmingly vast bulk of the 90s. I've said this in numerous other threads, but it bears repeating: Power Levels only became a thing once the dub started up. They were just about a complete and utter non-factor in fandom discourse prior to that: I only concretely remember all of one, one major online discussion centering on Sentou Ryoku/Battle Powers pre-FUNimation, and it only sticks out in my mind so much precisely because of how exceedingly unusual it was for DB fandom at the time to delve at all deeply into a topic that amounts to what is, at the end of the day, a fairly minor, detail-oriented plot point that only appeared in/was relevant for two story arcs out of roughly ten or so (depending on how one chooses to carve up the series), neither arc of which were the current ones airing/being serialized nor the ones most people were largely focused on (Cell or Boo).

Hell, even the older discussions from pre-Cell when the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs were the current ongoing arcs, even those barely ever touched on the subject in much detail. They'd get mentioned here or there where appropriate, but fans at the time back then recognized Battle Powers for what they were meant to be seen as: a plot device to separate Freeza's minions from the heroes in how they perceive Ki and a means of giving bad guys who were vastly more powerful than the protagonists a chink in their armor for the good guys to exploit. Thus, no one really gave much of a shit about them or put so much emphasis on them. Once the Freeza arc concluded, the story moved on from the Battle Powers concept and the fans followed suit without giving the matter much attention (because why would they?).

The dub for DBZ first aired in late-'96, and it took at least a good solid year and change or so before there was enough of a "post-dub" audience built up to fixate on Power Levels to any substantial degree. So by maybe late '97/early '98 or thereabouts you had Power Level debates and charts and number crunching whatnot cropping up in fan circles. Maybe mid-'97 or so at the absolute earliest.

Before that however, Dragon Ball fandom (and anime fandom in general, but that's a whole other rabbit hole) was just a totally different world of discourse and focal priorities from what most people here have known it as.

[Kendamu]

The dub for DBZ first aired in late-'96, and it took at least a good solid year and change or so before there was enough of a "post-dub" audience built up to fixate on Power Levels to any substantial degree. So by maybe late '97/early '98 or thereabouts you had Power Level debates and charts and number crunching whatnot cropping up in fan circles. Maybe mid-'97 or so at the absolute earliest.

That still most definitely counts as "since the '90s." Maybe not the bulk of the '90s, but I got into Dragon Ball during the Moltar days of Toonami (1998) when they repeated the same chunk of dub episodes over and over again. By that point, Power Levels were such a huge part of discussions that, and I'm sure you remember this, there was a mathematical formula spreading around DBZ fan sites that would calculate your "Power Level." I believe in most places it was based on age, weight, and how much weight you could bench press.

Since the '90s, Dragon Ball discussion has been very mathematical. I absolutely hate it. I'm glad there's been a lot of nonsense to throw it off since BoG. We need to bring back whatever it was I missed when you were discussing Dragon Ball pre-'97.

[sintzu]

As far as we know the only canon stories are the ones written by Toriyama so everything else is up to the fans (in this case you) to decide weather something outside of those stories are canon to them or not.

The power scaling is (thankfully) completely messed up now.

The writers doing whatever they want, regardless of it lining up with previous established facts and stories is a good thing ?

[Kunzait_83]

That still most definitely counts as "since the '90s." Maybe not the bulk of the '90s, but I got into Dragon Ball during the Moltar days of Toonami (1998) when they repeated the same chunk of dub episodes over and over again.

True it does count. Not disagreeing with you there. Its more I suppose that when I hear "Dragon Ball in the 90s" my brain is still conditioned (even all these many years later) to default more to pre-dub than post-dub, due to how very late in the decade it took for the dub to happen and then take off as well as how much more of the decade it had spent free of that particular baggage; not to mention my actually having lived through fandom for most of the decade prior. I first really fell in love with and started actively and seriously following DB/Z in very late '92, but I also first heard of and was made aware of it even earlier than that (late '90/early '91-ish). So my engagement with fandom extends back to a time just before Smells like Teen Spirit was released.

Also there's the matter of how wildly different the tail end of the 90s was, pop culturally, compared to the rest of the decade before it. So much of the last couple years of the 90s, from the music, the clothes, television, what was or wasn't popular, etc. was such a different beast from the earlier three quarters of it, and how much more of a piece it all felt with the early 2000s than the early through mid 90s. To me "the 90s" and "the late 90s" are almost like two distinctly different eras.

And by that same token, I'm also reminded tangentially of how annoying it is whenever people say "I'm a 90s kid" when really all they're talking about mainly is 1998 through 1999 (1997 at the very earliest) because they're WAY too fucking young to have been around and cognizant for the rest of the decade prior. If you're too young to have seen Jacob's Ladder or Pulp Fiction in theaters, if the names Bob Odenkirk and David Cross being spoken together don't immediately make you want to joyfully yell "America Will Blow Up the Moon!", if you can't recite the lyrics to Repeater or Detachable Penis from hard-wired memory but you CAN recite all 150 original Pokemon, you're not in any way, shape, or form a "90s kid".

All that's basically my way of saying the tail-end of the 90s was in some ways very un-90s, so the DBZ dub blowing up in those years feels very innately and diametrically opposed to what the pre-dub years were like throughout all of the decade prior.

We need to bring back whatever it was I missed when you were discussing Dragon Ball pre-'97.

Pffft. Trust me; THAT is most certainly NEVER ever coming back in any way, shape, or form. That particular ship has so, so long since sailed. Nevermind Dragon Ball fandom, both anime and wider geek culture as a collective whole are WAY too detached in many if not most respects from the very specific zeitgeist that once fueled them during those earlier years. You'd need nothing less than a time machine or some way of psychically diving into the minds of millions of people all at once and dramatically rewiring their cultural priorities to recapture that particular social energy.

[TheZFighter]

Since the '90s, Dragon Ball discussion has been very mathematical. I absolutely hate it. I'm glad there's been a lot of nonsense to throw it off since BoG. We need to bring back whatever it was I missed when you were discussing Dragon Ball pre-'97.

I so agree with this.

[Grimlock]

The only filler that must be canon is the driving license, which explains why we see Goku driving later on. All the other fillers are non-canon.

[Robo4900]

Canon in Dragon Ball is whatever you make of it. Because of the constantly inconsistent nature of the stories told in Dragon Ball, really Dragon Ball should be thought of as a collection of stories that can roughly approximate a timeline of events surrounding various characters. Which ones actually happened, and how they fit together to form one continuous story, -- in essence, what the definitive version of Dragon Ball is -- is up to the individual. For example, as far as I'm concerned, the "True" canon in my head will always be the three original animes; DB, Z, and GT.

[Kendamu]

The power scaling is (thankfully) completely messed up now.

The writers doing whatever they want, regardless of it lining up with previous established facts and stories is a good thing ?

Most definitely. Otherwise, the Freeza Army fight in RF would've been just, "Here's Piccolo and Gohan. Also, Tenshinhan throws one attack then flies away. Because Power Levels." It wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining.

In fact, if we go by the extremely limited "math" that's been established, the upcoming tournament wouldn't feature the likes of 17 and 18 at all. They were already left behind in terms of the math by the Cell Game. Going by the existing structure that's controlled fan discourse for so long, Son Goku and Vegeta would have to fuse and then split into ten copies of himself just to stick with the math.

Because of that, throwing "canon Power Levels" aside to create room for more entertaining fights is one of the better decisions made by the creative people in the Dragon Ball Room.

[precita]

All the filler is canon for the anime obviously, its part of the show.

Seriously, this debate has always been dumb.

[Kunzait_83]

The power scaling is (thankfully) completely messed up now.

The writers doing whatever they want, regardless of it lining up with previous established facts and stories is a good thing ?

Most definitely. Otherwise, the Freeza Army fight in RF would've been just, "Here's Piccolo and Gohan. Also, Tenshinhan throws one attack then flies away. Because Power Levels." It wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining.

In fact, if we go by the extremely limited "math" that's been established, the upcoming tournament wouldn't feature the likes of 17 and 18 at all. They were already left behind in terms of the math by the Cell Game. Going by the existing structure that's controlled fan discourse for so long, Son Goku and Vegeta would have to fuse and then split into ten copies of himself just to stick with the math.

Because of that, throwing "canon Power Levels" aside to create room for more entertaining fights is one of the better decisions made by the creative people in the Dragon Ball Room.

I think its absurd that this even still needs to be said at this point; but there does not exist now, way back then, or ever at any point such a thing as "canonical math" behind the characters' strength levels and fighting ability as they pertain to the Freeza Army's Battle Powers.

Again, what exactly do the numbers ever end up indicating or representing about a fighters' strength? The only narrative purpose that Battle Powers/Power Levels have EVER had is that they're often always wrong, are unreliable, and that depending upon them so heavily tends to be a good and quick way for Freeza's men to get themselves killed. Beyond that, they're meaningless, arbitrary numbers that mean exactly squat.

I mean seriously, all the talk people engage in about how forgetful, flighty, and impulsive Toriyama is as a writer/artist, and how much he constantly shoots from the hip as he goes along... do all of you then within that same exact breath genuinely believe that he had at one point some intricately laid out mathematical system or formula worked out for how those numbers operated or behaved or what they indicated back during DBZ's original run? Or worse, that the series would in someway actually BENEFIT from having one? (I'm otherwise 100% on Kendamu's side in this discussion that the whole "number crunchers" side of fandom needs to die, the sooner the better).

The most Toriyama ever does is make sure there's a very, VERY vague continuity in the numbers in that they always go higher and show up on Scouters as increasingly bigger figures as stronger and more powerful characters are introduced, or that certain Ki boosting techniques like the Kaioken have a certain set amount that they bump up the users' BP reading (which frankly is downright shocking that Toriyama even bothered to pay it any mind that degree). Beyond that, they're an utterly meaningless detail whose degree of importance is ENTIRELY 100% fan created. And by fans from a point in time well after the whole series had ended at that.

Super isn't "throwing aside" some kind of mathematical "rule book" from old school DBZ, because such an intricate system had never at any point ever existed to begin with, save for inside the heads of overly pedantic and hyper literal-minded fans of a foreign dub that created such a strong precedent for the Power Levels concept in a new wave of fans by total and complete blind accident.

Those just so happened to be the episodes where the Z portion begins (Raditz's debut, and with him the first Scouter and BP readings), and the end of the original Saban-produced run by sheer random chance ending off right around close to the last real heavy use of Scouters and BPs (which shows you all the ultimate significance they have on the whole series in how unceremoniously and casually they're discarded once the very last of Freeza's henchmen has bitten the dust).

Had FUNi plowed through original DB first and that specific portion of DBZ not endlessly repeated itself in rerun hell for a few pivotal years, we wouldn't be having ANY of these tiresome, tedious discussions about Power Levels and strength debates and math formulas, etc. No one would care to this degree, just like no one cared in the years prior to the dub.

I think that the characters who Toriyama continued to use and felt should be relevant from arc to arc was almost entirely dependent upon his own creative whims, who he was bored with or not so bored with yet, and so forth. At NO point do I buy for a microsecond that a thought like the following has EVER passed through Toriyama's head at any point ever:

"Gee y'know I'd really like for Kuririn to take a more central role in this fight here against Stage 2 Cell, but the Battle Power flowchart I'd set up and the numerical formula I'd outlined several arcs back shows that his numbers just wouldn't be up to it, so I'm afraid he'll have to take a backseat on this one. Ah well."

If you're someone (rhetorical "you") who otherwise agrees that the dude otherwise just pulls from his ass as he goes and writes entirely by the seat of his pants in ALL other areas of the series BUT FOR THIS ONE SPECIFIC AREA... I'm just therefore flabbergasted as to the immense amount of impact that this whole Power Level debacle from the earliest era of the dub has still managed to have on people's thinking and perception of DB even up to this very day, just through the will of sheer, common sense-overriding fanboy inertia.

All this being to say that, the DB Super writing staff aren't throwing out or violating some kind of numerical system or guideline, because no such fucking thing has ever existed in the first place. There's a LOT I can throw out against Super as to why its an inferior show from its predecessor: the writing staff disregarding about 16/17 years worth of bullshit nonsense fanmade formulas that indicate "X character is stronger than Y character but not Z character" (that are largely the creation of American/non-Japanese fans in the first place) is SO beyond not one of them its ridiculous. Having characters like Muten Roshi, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, 17 and 18 etc back in the spotlight once more are likewise exceedingly far from Super's faults and are indeed among its relatively few genuine virtues (that aforementioned by Kendamu brawl between the Z Warriors and Freeza's minions remains a Nu-Dragon Ball highlight).

And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.

[ABED]

Most definitely. Otherwise, the Freeza Army fight in RF would've been just, "Here's Piccolo and Gohan. Also, Tenshinhan throws one attack then flies away. Because Power Levels." It wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining.

In fact, if we go by the extremely limited "math" that's been established, the upcoming tournament wouldn't feature the likes of 17 and 18 at all. They were already left behind in terms of the math by the Cell Game. Going by the existing structure that's controlled fan discourse for so long, Son Goku and Vegeta would have to fuse and then split into ten copies of himself just to stick with the math.

Because of that, throwing "canon Power Levels" aside to create room for more entertaining fights is one of the better decisions made by the creative people in the Dragon Ball Room.

But it wasn't entertaining since there was no logic to it. Piccolo could've defeated Freeza's entire army by himself. The stretch in logic was so egregious that there wasn't even fridge logic.

While strict numerical adherence to power levels is ridiculous, the writers should pay attention to at least vague notions of power.

[Nejishiki]

Sure, Piccolo "could have" defeated all of Freeza's forces, if that were his objective. However, Dragon Team's motive as a unit was to stall for time until Goku & Vegeta arrived. They stretched the battle with the soldiers out because they were attempting to avoid Freeza's direct involvement. The justification was provided through the characters. In any case, holding back & matching blows with weaker individuals is hardly "math-defying", if Dragon Ball was attempting such a thing. Freeza's forces are repeatedly acknowledged as low quality with the leader himself noticing that the opposition pulled their punches.

[ABED]

Sure, Piccolo "could have" defeated all of Freeza's forces, if that were his objective. However, Dragon Team's motive as a unit was to stall for time until Goku & Vegeta arrived. They stretched the battle with the soldiers out because they were attempting to avoid Freeza's direct involvement. The justification was provided through the characters. In any case, holding back & matching blows with weaker individuals is hardly "math-defying", if Dragon Ball was attempting such a thing. Freeza's forces are repeatedly acknowledged as low quality with the leader himself noticing that the opposition pulled their punches.

Even then, stalling wouldn't be any problem for him alone. These are peons and Piccolo was FAR stronger than Freeza back in DBZ. There's no logic to it. It doesn't matter if they are holding back. It would take zero effort on Piccolo's part.

[Lord Beerus]

The writers doing whatever they want, regardless of it lining up with previous established facts and stories is a good thing ?

Most definitely. Otherwise, the Freeza Army fight in RF would've been just, "Here's Piccolo and Gohan. Also, Tenshinhan throws one attack then flies away. Because Power Levels." It wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining.

In fact, if we go by the extremely limited "math" that's been established, the upcoming tournament wouldn't feature the likes of 17 and 18 at all. They were already left behind in terms of the math by the Cell Game. Going by the existing structure that's controlled fan discourse for so long, Son Goku and Vegeta would have to fuse and then split into ten copies of himself just to stick with the math.

Because of that, throwing "canon Power Levels" aside to create room for more entertaining fights is one of the better decisions made by the creative people in the Dragon Ball Room.

I think its absurd that this even still needs to be said at this point; but there does not exist now, way back then, or ever at any point such a thing as "canonical math" behind the characters' strength levels and fighting ability as they pertain to the Freeza Army's Battle Powers.

Again, what exactly do the numbers ever end up indicating or representing about a fighters' strength? The only narrative purpose that Battle Powers/Power Levels have EVER had is that they're often always wrong, are unreliable, and that depending upon them so heavily tends to be a good and quick way for Freeza's men to get themselves killed. Beyond that, they're meaningless, arbitrary numbers that mean exactly squat.

I mean seriously, all the talk people engage in about how forgetful, flighty, and impulsive Toriyama is as a writer/artist, and how much he constantly shoots from the hip as he goes along... do all of you then within that same exact breath genuinely believe that he had at one point some intricately laid out mathematical system or formula worked out for how those numbers operated or behaved or what they indicated back during DBZ's original run? Or worse, that the series would in someway actually BENEFIT from having one? (I'm otherwise 100% on Kendamu's side in this discussion that the whole "number crunchers" side of fandom needs to die, the sooner the better).

The most Toriyama ever does is make sure there's a very, VERY vague continuity in the numbers in that they always go higher and show up on Scouters as increasingly bigger figures as stronger and more powerful characters are introduced, or that certain Ki boosting techniques like the Kaioken have a certain set amount that they bump up the users' BP reading (which frankly is downright shocking that Toriyama even bothered to pay it any mind that degree). Beyond that, they're an utterly meaningless detail whose degree of importance is ENTIRELY 100% fan created. And by fans from a point in time well after the whole series had ended at that.

Super isn't "throwing aside" some kind of mathematical "rule book" from old school DBZ, because such an intricate system had never at any point ever existed to begin with, save for inside the heads of overly pedantic and hyper literal-minded fans of a foreign dub that created such a strong precedent for the Power Levels concept in a new wave of fans by total and complete blind accident.

Those just so happened to be the episodes where the Z portion begins (Raditz's debut, and with him the first Scouter and BP readings), and the end of the original Saban-produced run by sheer random chance ending off right around close to the last real heavy use of Scouters and BPs (which shows you all the ultimate significance they have on the whole series in how unceremoniously and casually they're discarded once the very last of Freeza's henchmen has bitten the dust).

Had FUNi plowed through original DB first and that specific portion of DBZ not endlessly repeated itself in rerun hell for a few pivotal years, we wouldn't be having ANY of these tiresome, tedious discussions about Power Levels and strength debates and math formulas, etc. No one would care to this degree, just like no one cared in the years prior to the dub.

I think that the characters who Toriyama continued to use and felt should be relevant from arc to arc was almost entirely dependent upon his own creative whims, who he was bored with or not so bored with yet, and so forth. At NO point do I buy for a microsecond that a thought like the following has EVER passed through Toriyama's head at any point ever:

"Gee y'know I'd really like for Kuririn to take a more central role in this fight here against Stage 2 Cell, but the Battle Power flowchart I'd set up and the numerical formula I'd outlined several arcs back shows that his numbers just wouldn't be up to it, so I'm afraid he'll have to take a backseat on this one. Ah well."

If you're someone (rhetorical "you") who otherwise agrees that the dude otherwise just pulls from his ass as he goes and writes entirely by the seat of his pants in ALL other areas of the series BUT FOR THIS ONE SPECIFIC AREA... I'm just therefore flabbergasted as to the immense amount of impact that this whole Power Level debacle from the earliest era of the dub has still managed to have on people's thinking and perception of DB even up to this very day, just through the will of sheer, common sense-overriding fanboy inertia.

All this being to say that, the DB Super writing staff aren't throwing out or violating some kind of numerical system or guideline, because no such fucking thing has ever existed in the first place. There's a LOT I can throw out against Super as to why its an inferior show from its predecessor: the writing staff disregarding about 16/17 years worth of bullshit nonsense fanmade formulas that indicate "X character is stronger than Y character but not Z character" (that are largely the creation of American/non-Japanese fans in the first place) is SO beyond not one of them its ridiculous. Having characters like Muten Roshi, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, 17 and 18 etc back in the spotlight once more are likewise exceedingly far from Super's faults and are indeed among its relatively few genuine virtues (that aforementioned by Kendamu brawl between the Z Warriors and Freeza's minions remains a Nu-Dragon Ball highlight).

And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.

You hit the nail right on the head, Kunzait_83. Super had done quite a few things wrong, but what it has down right is let "Battle Powers" take a seat to allow other characters into the spotlight. I love that Master Roshi is becoming a prominent fighter again. The new generation of Dragon Ball fans need to be reminded of just what a great fighter is is/was, and what he can bring to the table other than the "pervy old man" gimmick. He did absolutely nothing of any importance after the King Piccolo arc, even in the filler of DB or Z. Yamcha at least had that bone throne towards him in Z, so I'm glad that one of the original characters form the old-school era of Dragon Ball is returning to prominence. He fucking deserves his spot among the top 10 strongest warrior that the universe has to offer. The old bastard deserves it. Same deal with Tien, Krillin, 17 and 18. Those guy deserves their moment in the sun as supposed to it being a Saiyan heavy party.