Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

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Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:06 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:Does Freeza's laughter not matching the lip-flaps after he kills Kuririn has to be an example of "bad voice acting"?
If yes, then that's one for a start.
That's generally less the actor's fault, and more the production process' fault. There are countless examples of the animation not being done in time, so the actors need to read along to animatics at best, and storyboards at worst. DBZ Movie 6 is one of the worst offenders I can think of: when Vegeta first shows up (after kicking Metal Coola away), he's just yap-yap-yapping away in the animation with the voice not even REMOTELY matching it.

Matching lip-flaps is something I feel Americans are far more invested in, for what it's worth. No idea if there's anything to that sentiment, of if I'm just making it up, but it feels that way for sure.
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Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:08 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:Does Freeza's laughter not matching the lip-flaps after he kills Kuririn has to be an example of "bad voice acting"?
If yes, then that's one for a start.
That's generally less the actor's fault, and more the production process' fault. There are countless examples of the animation not being done in time, so the actors need to read along to animatics at best, and storyboards at worst. DBZ Movie 6 is one of the worst offenders I can think of: when Vegeta first shows up (after kicking Metal Coola away), he's just yap-yap-yapping away in the animation with the voice not even REMOTELY matching it.

Matching lip-flaps is something I feel Americans are far more invested in, for what it's worth. No idea if there's anything to that sentiment, of if I'm just making it up, but it feels that way for sure.
Nowadays it seems Japanese actors voice their characters using animatics with no lip-flaps, but was that the case back then? The sync in the original Japanese could sometimes get so bad (and Fist of the North Star, also from Toei, is an even bigger offender) that I thought they just animated a bunch of lip-flaps roughly matching the time, and then it was up to the actor.
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Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:29 pm

huzaifa_ahmed wrote:I don't know Japanese, & so it's difficult for me to tell, but...as an analogy, I'd compare it to a similar AAA American production from the 80's/90's, such as, say, the DCAU, Batman/Superman TAS & Justice League. There's probably a small flaw in the production here & there, but in general it's taken very seriously & they have a ton of money relative to the usual size of productions of this nature. I also hear stuff like "Japanese voice actors are so much better!" but it's in context of "at performing in the styles common to Japanese media!"...to which I say "Well, duh.., if you're using "fitting to the cultural norms of the setting" as your metric for quality. One thing to note is that there is more of a "voice-over only" pool in Japan, at least for story-based stuff, than there is here. Most VAs that I've noticed are those that are doing it on the side, & really prefer live-action in general. VO doesnt pay quite as well (& dubs pay almost nothing comparatively), it pays like being a live-action extra, & IIRC Diedrich Bader mentioned that "even though he prefers doing VO, he can't just quit live-action, because he wouldn't be able to live off just that". There are tons of VAs that do commercial/promo/audiobook/etc alongside cartoons/games to make a living, & those are the "only VO" folks.

There are a few people I've noticed that are like that in Japan - Yuji Kishi (Crunch Bandicoot) in Kamen Rider stuff, off TOMH. But, while Disney may bring in mostly live-actors for big series, Shueisha or Toei generally seem to go for people like Otsuka/Yamadera/Nozawa/etc, who only do voice-overs, rather than "small TV actors doing it on the side for a paycheck". Also, something unfortunate is that Western cartoons will replace VAs with celebrities, if it's a big-budget movie, oftentimes. Spongebob, Transformers, Simpsons, a few others, IIRC, didnt do it. But it's something Westerners tend to do more. This is all just my two cents on English vs Japanese VO.The real key to remember is that dubs, especially Toei dubs, generally arent representative of a good comparison of English vs Japanese VO. Toei especially does it as cheap as possible.
I'd say most of the time when it comes to animation movies. Celebrities are better known than voice actors, so it makes sense why they would attract people to see those animated movies.
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Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:28 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:Are we really qualified to determine if there was ever bad voice acting in the Japanese version? I feel that unless you know Japanese, you don't know whether proper tones, emotions, or projection were used. Unless we actually understand how Japanese people speak, the only thing that we have to judge is the voice -- which is completely subjective.
"Tones, emotion, and projection" are literally the things that come through even when you don't know the language.
So we're assuming that all of those are supposed sound the same in Japanese as they do in English, hm?

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Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

Post by The gr » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:29 pm

Ajay wrote:Hrm, I'm not sure I have a good enough memory to conjure any examples from the older series, but I think Horikawa's 'My Bulma' moment in Super was pretty bad.
My gosh that scene was overdramatic and terrible and I hated the choreography for that fight and horikawa sounded off I seriously no high hopes for the eng dub for that scene
    the bog version was better heck the manga did a better job with that scene
      I also hated future yaidrobe voice it was so annoying
      Last edited by The gr on Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:37 pm

      TheGreatness25 wrote:
      Kamiccolo9 wrote:
      TheGreatness25 wrote:Are we really qualified to determine if there was ever bad voice acting in the Japanese version? I feel that unless you know Japanese, you don't know whether proper tones, emotions, or projection were used. Unless we actually understand how Japanese people speak, the only thing that we have to judge is the voice -- which is completely subjective.
      "Tones, emotion, and projection" are literally the things that come through even when you don't know the language.
      So we're assuming that all of those are supposed sound the same in Japanese as they do in English, hm?
      Tone and emotion are fairly universal among all human language, yes. Projection is a matter of voice control, and is independent of language.
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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by Asura » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:53 pm

      TheGreatness25 wrote:Are we really qualified to determine if there was ever bad voice acting in the Japanese version? I feel that unless you know Japanese, you don't know whether proper tones, emotions, or projection were used. Unless we actually understand how Japanese people speak, the only thing that we have to judge is the voice -- which is completely subjective.
      Well, as an example...you don't need to understand Japanese to understand that Yanami's Kaio Super voice was horrendous and completely failed to convey proper tone, emotion, or projection. The man is old and sick and thus, his performance is terrible.

      So no, I don't think knowing the language is a requirement for pointing out good/bad voice work. As another poster here said, tone and emotion are universal.

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by funrush » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:44 pm

      Kid Trunks's voice in Super gets obnoxious really fast. Both in Japanese and in English.

      Plus in Super there's the whole "everyone sounds like old people even though they're like 40" thing, but that's kind of difficult to remedy without recasting or time-skip.

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by Snow_Lilies » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:06 pm

      Freeza9000 wrote:Yeah, I agree with Ajay that Vegeta's "rage" moment in Super was laughably bad. There are also times where Nozawa's voice as Goku in Super annoys me, especially this scene at 1:52 But I don't remember or notice any terrible voice acting in the original DBZ, at least the Japanese version. The English version however is downright atrocious and I'm honestly baffled at the people who actually think this is superior to English Kai. I think this video sums up pretty well how much of a shitstain the original dub of Z was
      I personally don't think it's a good summary when people get bogged down in the bottom-of-the-barrel Freeza arc portion that was frankly quite awful. The Funi Z-dub has some moments in the Android Arc (No. 20 is pretty strong), gets better in early Cell, and Perfect Cell onwards it's pretty enjoyable (I'm a fan of Duncan Brannan's Babidi). Is the script leaps and bounds better in Kai? Definitely. But it's like you're not even trying to have a conversation here. >.> It's a discussion for another thread, probably.

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by Vijay » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:21 pm

      I believe that no one have the qualification to even "attempt" to pick up a bad acting especially from Anime Industry's Dream Team Jap casts

      End of the day, they're just opinions & it can be subjective.

      I only "disliked" Hidekatsu Shibata's hamming for Yi Shen Long. His acting was banal' devoid of freshness or soul making Yi even more one-dimensional & bland. At times he was even overacting, with cringe-worthy tone.

      At least as Hokage & King Bradley Hidekatsu portrayed subtlety & nuanced performance with dignified restrained acting. But with Yi....ugh!

      Wakamoto & Ryo in Kai were pure....more than acting...they merely gave "impression" that were kinda like the product itself (Kai) "been there, done that"

      So far, only Masako Nozawa, Tsuru Hiromi, Takeshi Kusao, & Tanaka Mayumi retain their original spirit

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:13 pm

      Vijay wrote:I believe that no one have the qualification to even "attempt" to pick up a bad acting especially from Anime Industry's Dream Team Jap casts

      End of the day, they're just opinions & it can be subjective.

      (...)
      And yet your post provides examples of what you consider bad acting, or at least not good acting. It kind of proves that we can and do attempt to judge it :lol:
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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by Vijay » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:28 pm

      UltimateHammerBro wrote:
      Vijay wrote:I believe that no one have the qualification to even "attempt" to pick up a bad acting especially from Anime Industry's Dream Team Jap casts

      End of the day, they're just opinions & it can be subjective.

      (...)
      And yet your post provides examples of what you consider bad acting, or at least not good acting. It kind of proves that we can and do attempt to judge it :lol:
      I clearly mentioned "disliked" which were my opinion & its entirely subjective. One man's meat is another mans poison

      Judging is....something beyond. I merely expressed how & why I disliked the seiyuus performance

      But in all honesty, gotta say this isnt say childs play as Saban or Funi Dub casts. Voice "acting" of DB's Jap cast is in a league of its own

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:56 am

      Vijay wrote:I clearly mentioned "disliked" which were my opinion & its entirely subjective. One man's meat is another mans poison

      Judging is....something beyond. I merely expressed how & why I disliked the seiyuus performance

      But in all honesty, gotta say this isnt say childs play as Saban or Funi Dub casts. Voice "acting" of DB's Jap cast is in a league of its own
      I really don't get the difference. You can judge a performance you dislike, and another person can judge the same performance and love it. I don't think there's anything "beyond".

      (I suppose) none of us are actual critics, i.e. people who make a living by judging actors. If we follow that path, we wouldn't even be able to judge actors speaking in our own language and out of the "Dream Team" league.
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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by huzaifa_ahmed » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:32 pm

      Kamiccolo9 wrote:
      TheGreatness25 wrote:
      Kamiccolo9 wrote: "Tones, emotion, and projection" are literally the things that come through even when you don't know the language.
      So we're assuming that all of those are supposed sound the same in Japanese as they do in English, hm?
      Tone and emotion are fairly universal among all human language, yes. Projection is a matter of voice control, and is independent of language.
      Problem tends to be that with dubs, it's inherently sort of unnatural because it's generally just post-production, you aren't usually the implied performer, so most of the time, it's just being forced into the picture that exists, meaning the idea that needs to be conveyed, almost cant be done so, & while there are dozens of dubs that do a remarkable job through the painstaking task of dub scripting...it's not ideal whatsoever, & I don't think it's intended as a comparison to the original audio.

      * It was worse prior to 2001, when ProTools (which allows digital shifting/time-compressing of audio files) made things so much easier. But it still certainly isnt ideal at all.

      There are certain cases (usually a product designed for international audiences), like Square Enix titles, which will animated for various language tracks local to the region a version is being sold in. Off TOMH, Final Fantasy 13, 15, & Crisis Core, do this.

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by lunaticthegame » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:39 am

      Saikyo no Senshi wrote:Tsuru Hiromi, since Kai has refused to or can't emote. She has completely lost her charm and I kind of want her to be replaced. Kind of.

      Then, there's Tanaka Mayumi's Yajirobe in Super. Probably, the one I dislike most. She completely forgot how Yajirobe sounded. It was really bad. None of the Muten Roushi's replacements sounded good to me. Miya'uchi had set the bar so high that none even came close. Same thing with Mr.Satan, Gouri Daisuke was just irreplaceable.

      Kai, overall I thought the cast was at its weakest, cause Kai was a garbage product, so maybe nobody put any effort. But, in the 2 movies and Super, the main cast except Blooma has significantly improved. And the new additions have been really good. The acting department overall is still strong.
      I know I'm late as heck but didn't Tanaka Mayumi change how Yajirobe sound in the original since in the Piccolo arc she just used Krillins voice and so when the Sayain arc came around and Krillin and Yajirobe would have multiple interactions, she had to change it up.

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by lunaticthegame » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:41 am

      To be fully honest. Kai and Super aren't that well done in Japanese because the actors are in there 60s, 70s and 80s now so they aren't as good as they used to be.

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by SansrivaaL » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:04 pm

      Mai's voice is just terrible for me, cringe worthy to say the least, almost all of her parts in the FT arc.

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by Freeza9000 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:02 am

      SansrivaaL wrote:Mai's voice is just terrible for me, cringe worthy to say the least, almost all of her parts in the FT arc.
      What was wrong about it? I mean, I could somewhat understand Kid Mai, but why Future Mai? I thought she sounded fine enough, at least to me.

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      Re: Any examples of bad voice acting in the original?

      Post by SansrivaaL » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:19 am

      Freeza9000 wrote:
      SansrivaaL wrote:Mai's voice is just terrible for me, cringe worthy to say the least, almost all of her parts in the FT arc.
      What was wrong about it? I mean, I could somewhat understand Kid Mai, but why Future Mai? I thought she sounded fine enough, at least to me.
      She sounded.... way too off for me, I see quite a lot of people likes her VA, maybe its just my taste (like her voice was cracking)

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