Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:48 pm

Cipher wrote:
Faustus wrote:If you tend toward formalism, for instance, then why not strive to explain why the internal mechanisms of the works inform your different experiences of them? Better that than piously importing (likely arbitrary) standards for what constitutes "good writing" from god-knows-where into your evaluation of the works -- in which case in my view you're just enacting someone else's criticism rather than your own. A critical lens, as far as I'm concerned, should seek to describe and to explain and to account for the extraordinary (and sometimes not-so extraordinary) power and the experience of art -- and account for why we value it -- not condition (or distort, or impose upon) it, overly prescriptively.
This is such a good post.

Too often when discussing the writing of something like Dragon Ball do we begin by trying to acknowledge its perceived flaws against some pre-supposed standards, rather than looking at a successful work and trying to figure out what makes it tick.
To expand upon this, it seems that a good portion of the fandom, especially in the west, views Dragon Ball as a guilty pleasure of sorts, as though there is something inherently wrong with legitimately enjoying it and considering it a good work. I suspect the rather poor quality of the first dub has something to do with this.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:44 pm

Cipher wrote:That anecdote about threatening to walk if he couldn't age Goku up is so great though. Toriyama was such a punk. He pushed Torishima's buttons all the time, but obviously cared about doing right by his series.

That whole interview is worth reading. I feel like it's impossible to get through the whole thing and not come away with more respect for both Toriyama and Torishima.
I wholeheartedly agree about the interview. I have massive respect for Torishima because of it. The way he got in the field, studied it, and became an expert is just amazing to me. I even talked to VegettoEX on Twitter about it. He loved it too. I think one of my favorite parts about the interview is where Torishima mentions that Toriyama got mad, and made Dr. Mashirito to get at him. He's like "I was hoping it would fail, but then it succeeded," and I just laughed my ass off. Combined with his portrayal in Super where he just says "reject, reject, reject," I love both of them together.

Hell, I wish Torishima was at Toei personally telling Toriyama what to do when he outlines these arcs for Super. He could've seriously used his help for the Goku Black arc. Hell, he could've used Torishima's help for Majin Buu, at least with Gotenks' bullshit we had to deal with.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:46 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:To expand upon this, it seems that a good portion of the fandom, especially in the west, views Dragon Ball as a guilty pleasure of sorts, as though there is something inherently wrong with legitimately enjoying it and considering it a good work. I suspect the rather poor quality of the first dub has something to do with this.
It's probably just because it's a kid's show. There's always stigma surrounding children's fiction.

Or the fact that it's a popular franchise. Popular franchises are liked by the masses. The masses are casual. Thus, non-casuals shouldn't like casual stuff. Textbook pretentioussness and hipster mentality.

Or all the factors put together.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by DBZ Macky » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:30 am

sintzu wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:I literally saw comments like "Toriyama is a shit writer" and that kind of stuff on a YouTube clip.
The Youtube comment section is the worst place you could go for an opinion.

I'm sure there are well put together opinions but for the most part it's just "Toriyama sucks", "Super sucks", etc. without any other details.

I'm not saying you can't have that opinion but to just leave it at that without giving any reasons to why you think that just makes you (not you personally) seem like a troll who can't put a sentence together.
Yeah, I completely agree with you. It's really just younger fans who'd go to these degrees though. I've also noticed that most of them refer to him as "Akira" rather than "Mr. Toriyama" or something like that.

The problem is that most fans on YT are younger fans, in contrast to forums like Kanzenshuu.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Luffy123 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:33 am

I wouldn't say hate i think he is a respectable man, who did a lot however, people are now to recognizing him being a mediocre writer if u compare a veteran writer from that worked in the 80's in jump is Hirohiko Araki.

Araki like changing up the formula, he's a smart author who takes a lot of risks, his creativity when it comes to fights like inventing stands and contributing towards shows like naruto and one piece and still really good and understand how to balance out tones and keep protagonist, antagonist and side character interesting.

Where Toriyama never really learnt from his mistakes like araki did he more like double downs, like his obsession of Goku being the best, I mean heck he ruined space in the dragon ball world from stating frieza is strongest person in the universe, what could be infinite possibilities space reduces it like that. I mean after battle of gods he could have fixed a lot of the issues in buu saga but doubled down and in F gave goku and vegeta SS blue. a lot of his fights are poorly thought out, well it has great choreography however the actual fight itself a really little strategy PlagueOfGripes video on power levels say a lot of toriyama problems. When u compare Toriyama to other veteran authors like Togashi, Araki, Iwaaki Hitoshi, Miura, Takehiko Inoue, Urasawa Naoki and many other authors who's work still holds up fairly well its disappointing u could say it become product of his time.

However he is good at making characters with personality, use to make amazing designs ( Jiren was horrible) Chrono trigger, dragon quest... and is fantastic at gag and visual comedy plus his manga layouts are amazing. Plus toriyama has some engaging dialogue its not even battle of gods shows everything best about this author however Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' and onwards represents everything bad thing about the author.

I don't hate him i heard the behind the scenes of cell and buu saga however i still like dbz and dragon ball and acknowledge its faults. a lot of people respect him for what he did and heck he's the reason why so much great and bad shounen exist nowadays he helped influenced an entire generation.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Cetra » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:52 am

Luffy123 wrote: However he is good at making characters with personality, use to make amazing designs ( Jiren was horrible) Chrono trigger, dragon quest...
Akira Toriyama does not make all the Dragon Quest designs. Square has a lot of people who learned his art style. That does not mean he did/does nothing, just that you should not expect that everything Toriyama-style by Square was actually made by him.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:08 pm

I think the majority respects Toriyama.

I respect him as well... but I do get annoyed with some of the decisions he makes and the stuff he says in interviews. But he's still a cool guy. I just don't think the fandom should herald him as some sort of super genius and thinking anything made by him is automatically better than anything made by Toei or some other party (which I know parts of this fandom does).
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by ulisa » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:01 pm

GamerSkull wrote:I think the majority respects Toriyama.

I respect him as well... but I do get annoyed with some of the decisions he makes and the stuff he says in interviews. But he's still a cool guy. I just don't think the fandom should herald him as some sort of super genius and thinking anything made by him is automatically better than anything made by Toei or some other party (which I know parts of this fandom does).
This is pretty much my feelings as well. I respect the man and am very grateful to him for creating this world but I don’t necessarily agree with all his story telling choices. Likewise, I don’t always think Toei makes the best decisions either. Unfortunately, it seems like fans reflecting constructive criticism (which really should be done for all media) tend to be misinterpreted as attacking. Now, having said that—are there people who DO attack without anything constructive to say? Yes, absolutely but there’s a difference between that and fans pointing out creative flaws.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Luffy123 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:10 pm

Cetra wrote:
Luffy123 wrote: However he is good at making characters with personality, use to make amazing designs ( Jiren was horrible) Chrono trigger, dragon quest...
Akira Toriyama does not make all the Dragon Quest designs. Square has a lot of people who learned his art style. That does not mean he did/does nothing, just that you should not expect that everything Toriyama-style by Square was actually made by him.
He did the early dragon quest designs i pretty sure and yes Chrono trigger one of the best JRPG he was directly involved with the designs of the characters. Also yeah i agree about the last statement the latter dragon quest game for sure doesn't really have that feel however early did.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Cetra » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:22 pm

I never said he didn't design Chrono Trigger and yes, I also implied he worked on Dragon Warrior. But for that franchise it is like with Toei's stuff. Not every design Toriyama-style is actually out of his pencil.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Forte224 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:35 am

Well I certainly don't hate him. The vocal minority that calls him a hack or whatever are similar to the ones that do it to Shigeru Miyamoto of Nintendo. It's like, is he past his prime and has made some dumb decisions? Yeah. But would my childhood have been far different without him (for the worse)? Also yeah.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by King13s » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:06 am

You can adore a creator's project and art, and dislike them as a person. With Toriyama there is a lot to love, his creativity, his dedication, his standard of "if I don't want to do it, I won't make those who work for me do it."

He has a lot of redeeming qualities in his ethics and practices. Hell, look at the Toyotaro story, or any of the talks about his respect for the animation staff. For that, I have a ton of respect for him.

My issues only exist as a fanboy. Where he took the story, being so hung up on Goku, when the series has been and always will be more than just the Goku Show. Being unwilling to hand the reigns over to a new writer. Having Super Saiyan Blue even be a thing, like, I hate it so much, Super Saiyan God was an interesting concept, use that for more than one ark. Supposedly he had more control this time, and was strictly a plot outline and final say guy, but he still played to the tune of "more transformations means more interest" which isn't true.

He doesn't know his fanbase, he doesn't like his fans, which makes it feel like he doesn't give a shit about this show.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by sangofe » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:13 am

King13s wrote:
he doesn't like his fans
Where do you pull this from?

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by Trickster » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:38 am

[quote="TheGreatness25"]A bad writer would be an unimaginative one that rips off everything and needs help putting the simplest ideas together./quote]
You described Toriyama completely.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:42 am

Toriyama made dragon ball, so that's pretty cool. Personally, I'm not in love with all of it, but I do like the bulk of what I've read from him. I don't think he's a very good story writer, but he makes fun characters, and has a pretty great sense of humor. I like the guy, but idk, I feel like some people are like, way too uptight if you disrespect him or anything. Or at least that's how i remember it. Like I used to be one of those people who got mad if somebody said AT, or Akira, which looking back, is just ridiculous imo.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:05 am

King13s wrote:He doesn't know his fanbase, he doesn't like his fans,
Don't confuse indiference with dislike or ignorance. We don't know if he knows his fanbase or not (and I'm assuming you meant 'what they want'). He doesn't have to know what the fans want. What's important is what he wants. It's his story, his characters, his fiction, his work.

The comparison with George Lucas in the original post is actually quite appropriate. Both Toriyama and Lucas are creators of fictional universes that (to different extents) have been attacked by some fans (who pretend to know better) for not doing what the fans want as opposed to what they want to do.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:41 am

Where he took the story, being so hung up on Goku, when the series has been and always will be more than just the Goku Show. Being unwilling to hand the reigns over to a new writer.
Goku is the main character. I don't see why this is an issue. Many stories have one primary protagonist. And there is nothing wrong with someone not wanting to hand over their creation to another writer.

I believe he cares about his audience, but we're numerous and all have different ideas of what we would like to see happen. How would anyone even begin to satisfy everyone. Is that the standard of caring for one's audience, giving them what they want? What about taking creative risks, surprising, and giving the audience what they didn't know they wanted? Hell, isn't how this all started? Before there was DB, who was clamoring for that story until Toriyama created it?
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by SuperCyan2 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:49 am

The only part on the web where I've seen people lose their shit is on this community because even YouTube isn't that bad as you just go on mind your business and can completely ignore it. Here however, everything gets recorded and can be recovered.

I never really got into the 'beef' (wouldn't mind beef or pork with fried chips right now lol) fellas have with Dragon Ball characters or Toriyama, I just don't care.
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