Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by sintzu » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:43 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:For modern day companies to deem Z far more marketable than DB, there has to be a difference.
The difference is that Z is more popular than DB.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15360
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:47 pm

Another reason could be that in Z Goku had a wife and child.
That doesn't make it a different series, just a logical progression from where DB left off.
Considering Raditz was an alien, I wouldn't say so. Regardless, for the change to happen at that specific point and for modern day companies to deem Z far more marketable than DB, there has to be a difference.
I would seeing as how that's one threat. I mean all of them being aliens of some sort (even though the cyborgs weren't alien at all). Toriyama could've easily made the subsequent threats terrestrial. The biggest difference is that Z was more popular. This is an issue of marketing, not story.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:59 pm

ABED wrote:
Another reason could be that in Z Goku had a wife and child.
That doesn't make it a different series, just a logical progression from where DB left off.
Do you not count sequel series as different?

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15360
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:01 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
ABED wrote:
Another reason could be that in Z Goku had a wife and child.
That doesn't make it a different series, just a logical progression from where DB left off.
Do you not count sequel series as different?
It's not a sequel series. It's part of the same story with a slightly different name.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:03 pm

ABED wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
ABED wrote: That doesn't make it a different series, just a logical progression from where DB left off.
Do you not count sequel series as different?
It's not a sequel series. It's part of the same story with a slightly different name.
Sequel series tell the same story. Naruto Shippuden is just Naruto after a timeskip.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15360
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:04 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
ABED wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Do you not count sequel series as different?
It's not a sequel series. It's part of the same story with a slightly different name.
Sequel series tell the same story. Naruto Shippuden is just Naruto after a timeskip.
I get that, but it's an arbitrary line drawn between the two. The Buu arc could've been another sequel series as it occurs after another significant time skip. It's all the same story. Regardless, no, I don't count Z as different.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
SingleFringe&Sparks
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu/East District

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:39 am

nickzambuto wrote:He along with Dragon Ball as a whole have a bad reputation on the internet from casual dub peasants who still think deebeezee is a vapid superhero show about explosions and punches. People who know what they're talking about have nothing but praise for Toriyama's writing talents. It's no coincidence that he's widely respected in Japan as a talented writer, but in America where we received a bastardized version of the show, people think he's no good.

What really russles my jimmies though are the specific criticisms people have of Toriyama. Deebeezee gets called formulaic, stagnant, every arc is apparently a repeat of the last. People generalize the series into "strong villain appears who is evil for no reason, beats up Goku, Goku trains to get stronger and beats up the villain, rinse repeat." But this annoys me because it's the opposite of the truth. Dragon Ball is one of the most creative, subversive, unpredictable stories I can name.

People yell out that deebeezee has no "character development" and follow it up with "except for Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Mr. Satan, Majin Boo, and Future Trunks." So it has no character development, except for six characters. Okay.

Then that still leaves out Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame Sennin, Bulma, and Yamcha because people think the first half of the story is some irrelevant prequel. And we can't leave Goku out of this. One of the most charming, inspiring characters pretty much ever. The embodiment of a thousand years worth of Asian culture and literature. By far the best and most developed character in the series. The damn dirty dub peasants have the audacity to call him a terrible character.

Such a shame.
A lot of this is stressed on more due to the memes based on these myths due to the ignorance of the western fandom. That and the strong alienation most Toonami fanboys have from the source material and lore influences by lack of concern, or the division of people who think they know the series more than others based on their stronger attachment to the superficial premises they accepted as a child. In the west DBZ is treated like some sort of guilty pleasure rather than a timeless cult classic due to these misconceptions, and that comes heavily from the bastardized saban marketing it had in the 90s. Its how you know the reflection of those fans are shown in their rationalization of it.People who generally don't understand the series outside of that will make those common claims, but the internet has made the memes into an unauthorized law that people refuse to be corrected on, just for the sake of mocking the series. I just have no personal reason to "hate" him, knowing the information I do about his stance on things.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

User avatar
Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5466
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by Cipher » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:21 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:But there has to be a reason it became DBZ at that specific point. Saying it's all the same series and the distinction is completely arbitrary is like saying the distinction between the middle ages and the present day is totally arbitrary and it's all the same timeline.
We actually know exactly why the rebranding happened in the anime at that point, thanks to Forbes' fantastic interview with Kazuhiko Torishima last year.

Torishima was unsatisfied with the way the anime was handling the increasingly action-oriented nature of the manga, having been somewhat unsatisfied with the direction of the Dr. Slump anime as well, and leaned on Toei to assign a new producer and alter production in a number of ways. During the course of all this, they decided it would be best to rebrand in a bid to attract new viewers.

That this coincided with the arrival of Raditz in-story is mostly arbitrary. That was simply the soonest Torishima could push for the the change after reaching his apparent breaking point with the earlier direction during the end of the Piccolo arc, and it presented the cleanest break in the narrative for some time.

Here's the relevant section:
“Even though we tried to make the Dragon Ball anime better than Dr. Slump's, the ratings still went gradually down. We then tried to figure out why that was happening, why the series wasn't doing well. One thing we discovered was that the producer for the Dragon Ball anime was the same as on Dr. Slump. As he had an image of Toriyama's manga as being something cute and funny, which meant his style of Dragon Ball became too similar to Dr. Slump. This meant he was missing the more serious tone we had developed in the Dragon Ball manga. For instance, when I saw the scene in the anime where Goku pierces Piccolo I realized I couldn't work with this producer.

“So I talked with the studio and asked to have the producer changed. This was something that had never happened before, as it was an entirely different company.

“Around the same time, Saint Seiya was a very popular anime. This was interesting because the Saint Seiya manga was rather average but the anime by comparison was a lot better. So I wanted to know why the Saint Seiya anime was doing so well and we did some research on that. We found that there were two key figures. The first was Kouzou Morishita, who was the director, and the second was Takao Koyama, who wrote the script. So I visited these two guys and asked them if they'd help me reboot Dragon Ball and they both agreed.

“In addition to all this, Toriyama was asking to change the character design for Goku, from the cuter proportions to something taller and more muscular. When I heard this for the first time, I argued a lot with him about it. This was because I thought the most important thing with boy's comics was to have the main character resonate with the readers. So if you switched the character's proportions then that would be an all-new character to the readers. My first reaction to all this was to say no to changing Goku but Toriyama's explanation was very logical and the only option was for me to agree. That explanation was that since the battles were becoming increasingly serious in the manga and you had a proper villain in the form of Piccolo who was taller than Goku. All this meant that if had to draw a serious battle you needed to show Goku's muscles, as well as strong actions for his punching and kicking. So in order to draw these kinds of actions in this context, it meant that Goku needed to have taller proportions and more muscles. This was also something that Toriyama had to do anyway in previous episodes of the manga, as he would be forced to distort the proportions of Goku to make the fights work. What was more, after each battle Goku would return to his cuter smaller form. These kinds of discrepancies really annoyed Toriyama. So his response was simply that I would approve these changes to Goku or that he would stop making Dragon Ball.

“All of this was great timing as we had all these staff changes happening in the animation as well. The new anime producer also was very smart and said that if we had a new title, in that Dragon Ball would finish and we'd start a new show, then that meant the anime would get more money for promotion. So we decided to go with the different title and updated characters, with bigger proportions, and we had a meeting for this new title but we couldn't come up with anything good. I went and asked Toriyama for his input and he answered immediately by saying "Dragon Ball Z". I asked "why Z?" and he said "because this is last, nothing comes after this."”
Anyway, interpret that as you will, but this stuff is no longer a mystery.

SpiritBombTriumphant
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:32 am

Cipher wrote:
I asked "why Z?" and he said "because this is last, nothing comes after this."”
Man planned. God laughed.

User avatar
Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5466
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by Cipher » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:40 am

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:Man planned. God laughed.
Ha, yeah. Obviously that didn't work out.

That anecdote about threatening to walk if he couldn't age Goku up is so great though. Toriyama was such a punk. He pushed Torishima's buttons all the time, but obviously cared about doing right by his series.

That whole interview is worth reading. I feel like it's impossible to get through the whole thing and not come away with more respect for both Toriyama and Torishima.

User avatar
DragonBallLove
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:34 pm

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by DragonBallLove » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:25 pm

If a point should be established for a change, its not the timeskip after the tournament, but the timeskip BEFORE the tournamet. Goku growing up and the return of Piccolo (and Chichi, in a lesser extent) marks a bigger tonal difference for me than Gohan appearance and the Saiyan revelation.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15360
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:35 pm

DB and DBZ don't have different tones. In fact, neither has a uniform tone.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
DragonBallLove
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:34 pm

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by DragonBallLove » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:36 pm

ABED wrote:DB and DBZ don't have different tones. In fact, neither has a uniform tone.
I fully commune with the second statement.

User avatar
8000 Saiyan
I Live Here
Posts: 2592
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:43 pm

He might not be the best mangaka of all time, but I don't think he's hated that much.
"It was deemed to be too awesome." - Scott McNeil on Dragon Ball Kai not being aired yet in Canada.

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10156
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:57 pm

Cipher wrote: During the course of all this, they decided it would be best to rebrand in a bid to attract new viewers.
I was bored sometime ago and was checking the ratings on here for the old series, and I interestingly did not find a single Z episode that was rated higher then DB's highest one. Obviously that doesn't mean anything as Z wildly exceeded elsewhere no doubt but still interesting nonetheless. But I am curious to know what the domestic merchandise numbers were when Z was airing.

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:55 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote:He might not be the best mangaka of all time, but I don't think he's hated that much.
I don't know, I'd say he's pretty unfairly hated by some. You could take a look at almost any DB-related Youtube comments section and find a couple of comments calling him senile.

User avatar
Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5466
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Cipher » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:59 pm

The only people who hate Akira Toriyama have never actually read an Akira Toriyama manga.

They watched a dubbed anime adaptation twelve years ago and are pissy he doesn't have a ten-year plan for delivering sentimental schmaltz like his successors in the shonen action genre (which he nearly single-handedly redefined despite not being primarily interested in it).

That, and they don't care about sharp character-writing or design and layout skill.

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:41 pm

Cipher wrote:The only people who hate Akira Toriyama have never actually read an Akira Toriyama manga.

They watched a dubbed anime adaptation twelve years ago and are pissy he doesn't have a ten-year plan for delivering sentimental schmaltz like his successors in the shonen action genre (which he nearly single-handedly redefined despite not being primarily interested in it).

That, and they don't care about sharp character-writing or design and layout skill.
I don't quite get the bolded point.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Doctor. » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:45 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Cipher wrote:The only people who hate Akira Toriyama have never actually read an Akira Toriyama manga.

They watched a dubbed anime adaptation twelve years ago and are pissy he doesn't have a ten-year plan for delivering sentimental schmaltz like his successors in the shonen action genre (which he nearly single-handedly redefined despite not being primarily interested in it).

That, and they don't care about sharp character-writing or design and layout skill.
I don't quite get the bolded point.
He's talking about the over-the-top melodrama in long-running Shounen like One Piece and Naruto which have had plot points and entire arcs planned from their inception.

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:50 pm

Doctor. wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Cipher wrote:The only people who hate Akira Toriyama have never actually read an Akira Toriyama manga.

They watched a dubbed anime adaptation twelve years ago and are pissy he doesn't have a ten-year plan for delivering sentimental schmaltz like his successors in the shonen action genre (which he nearly single-handedly redefined despite not being primarily interested in it).

That, and they don't care about sharp character-writing or design and layout skill.
I don't quite get the bolded point.
He's talking about the over-the-top melodrama in long-running Shounen like One Piece and Naruto which have had plot points and entire arcs planned from their inception.
Of this generation's so called big three I've only read Naruto & Bleach and I never got the impression that they were all that planned out. Bleach is basically the same set of events repeating over and over and Naruto has a lot of concepts that Kishimoto clearly didn't think of when he first started like Tailed beasts, the Rinnegan, RIkudo Sennin etc. Basically most of the late game stuff.

Post Reply