Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by Gog » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:29 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:There was quite a surge in poaching during the two-ish months when everyone was on Namek. Why do you think #17 became a park ranger? I'm quite offended that you could equate a serious issue like poaching with a harmless retcon. For shame...
They must have killed all the animal people and everyone who knew about Piccolo and Goku.
But how could have they done such a thing when the king is a dog!
The King was killed and The Champ now rules.

Another big retcon in Dragon Ball would be androids 19 and Dr Gero being changed to 18 and 17 in the future.

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by GigaDrill » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:21 am

Goku being an alien, Piccolo/Kami being an alien, and Popo not being an alien.
Doctor. wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:There was quite a surge in poaching during the two-ish months when everyone was on Namek. Why do you think #17 became a park ranger? I'm quite offended that you could equate a serious issue like poaching with a harmless retcon. For shame...
They must have killed all the animal people and everyone who knew about Piccolo and Goku.
But how could have they done such a thing when the king is a dog!
The King was the first to die and be subsequently replaced so that none of the animal people would suspect anything until it was too late.
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by Nejishiki » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:21 am

Gog wrote:The King was killed and The Champ now rules.
He's alive after the Namek trip & during Mr. Satan's heightened fame (Dragon Ball Chapter 393). As far as I can recall, he only dies when Boo kills humans below the temple.
GigaDrill wrote:Popo not being an alien.
What do you mean by this one? Isn't he introduced as one of God's attendants & it's left at that (barring the databook information)?

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by GigaDrill » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:06 am

Nejishiki wrote:
Gog wrote:The King was killed and The Champ now rules.
He's alive after the Namek trip & during Mr. Satan's heightened fame (Dragon Ball Chapter 393). As far as I can recall, he only dies when Boo kills humans below the temple.
GigaDrill wrote:Popo not being an alien.
What do you mean by this one? Isn't he introduced as one of God's attendants & it's left at that (barring the databook information)?
It was a bad joke but based on the observation that Popo is one of the more alien looking characters of DB before the Namek arc.

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by superfan2024 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:27 pm

It probably isn't considered a retcon, but I think Cell pooping/creating the Cell Juniors just came out of nowhere to be honest. It also just wasn't explained at all. I know they were used for a way that Cell could make Gohan get angry, I get it, but it just came out of nowhere and it was unexplained.

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by Esfír Dedragón » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:12 pm

Let's remember that retcons are not necessarily logical impossibilities. Goku and Piccolo being aliens instead of a human and a demon, respectively, is still a plausible idea. Now, maybe it was not obvious enough during the early days of Dragon Ball, but there were always hints that most of the main characters were not normal creatures. Super strength and science-defying abilities tend to give the impression to the audience that normal human beings can't do that.

Going back to my earlier comment about retcons not necessarily being impossibilities, suppose that Bulma, being the scientist she is, took a blood test on Goku and it was revealed that he has human DNA, but years later Raditz arrived and told Goku that he was actually an alien. Unless we get some explanation that the test was faulty, the notion that Goku is an alien wouldn't be a retcon; it would a plot-hole.

Anyway, most people here have already mentioned the big ones (Goku is not human, New Dragon Ball Rules, etc.) but here are some that, while perhaps not being the biggest, have caught my attention more so than usual every time I examine the franchise.

1) The Pilaf Gang still existing. I'm not just saying this because I have a nuclear-powered hatred of them, but even though we see them survive their fall from the sky and find out that they were apparently turned into infants, who the HECK took care of them!? Not only that, but before the whole Battle of Gods storyline fiasco was ever introduced, I always found it so surprising that they were considered good enough to be brought back to life and be part of DBGT.

2) The entire Majin Buu Saga. We all know that Toriyama never plans ahead, but it just seems that while previous arcs have some connection with each other either through foreshadowing or as an effect from a cause, the whole arc feels so disconnected from the progression of the story. I still like it, but it would have been better if they could have at least tried to explain plausibly how Majin Buu appeared earlier in the Main Timeline than in the Original Timeline and the others. Had it not been for the Future Trunks arc and the episode/manga where we see Future Dabura and Future Babidi, you would have assumed that Majin Buu just never existed in his timeline! My own head canon states that the fight with Cell attracted the attention of Babidi as he was traveling to space. *shrugs*

3) Previously unknown siblings such as Tights and Tarble. ...yeah, those are self-explanatory. I'll also add that while I have never read Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, I don't like the idea of it being a prequel to the Dragon Ball manga and its inclusion of Jaco trying to hunt down Goku as a baby. :/

4) The ever-increasing levels of deities (aka, Kaios and Kaioshins, Hakaishins, Makaioshins(?), etc.). Not as complicated as most retcons, but I find it annoying every time we are told or given the implication that NO, THESE GUYS ARE THE REAL GODS THAT ARE SUPREME, FOR REAL! At least we finally have the Omni-King, though. Unless... ;)
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:28 pm

Esfír Dedragón wrote:Let's remember that retcons are not necessarily logical impossibilities. Goku and Piccolo being aliens instead of a human and a demon, respectively, is still a plausible idea. Now, maybe it was not obvious enough during the early days of Dragon Ball, but there were always hints that most of the main characters were not normal creatures. Super strength and science-defying abilities tend to give the impression to the audience that normal human beings can't do that.

Going back to my earlier comment about retcons not necessarily being impossibilities, suppose that Bulma, being the scientist she is, took a blood test on Goku and it was revealed that he has human DNA, but years later Raditz arrived and told Goku that he was actually an alien. Unless we get some explanation that the test was faulty, the notion that Goku is an alien wouldn't be a retcon; it would a plot-hole.
The problem is that there are two meanings used for the term "retcon".
It originally meant "retroactive continuity" in the sense of additions to the previous history. IIRC, it was coined in the comic book The Invaders, which told Captain America's adventures in WWII which hadn't been told in that era. Goku and Piccolo being aliens would fit this definition.
The more recent definition seems to restrict it to additions which contradict previous history: Bulma identifying Goku as human only to be later revealed as alien, apart from a plothole, could fit the second definition, more so if the earlier statement was deemed non-canon, as it tends to happen in American comics.
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:35 pm

UltimateHammerBro wrote:
Esfír Dedragón wrote:Let's remember that retcons are not necessarily logical impossibilities. Goku and Piccolo being aliens instead of a human and a demon, respectively, is still a plausible idea. Now, maybe it was not obvious enough during the early days of Dragon Ball, but there were always hints that most of the main characters were not normal creatures. Super strength and science-defying abilities tend to give the impression to the audience that normal human beings can't do that.

Going back to my earlier comment about retcons not necessarily being impossibilities, suppose that Bulma, being the scientist she is, took a blood test on Goku and it was revealed that he has human DNA, but years later Raditz arrived and told Goku that he was actually an alien. Unless we get some explanation that the test was faulty, the notion that Goku is an alien wouldn't be a retcon; it would a plot-hole.
The problem is that there are two meanings used for the term "retcon".
It originally meant "retroactive continuity" in the sense of additions to the previous history. IIRC, it was coined in the comic book The Invaders, which told Captain America's adventures in WWII which hadn't been told in that era. Goku and Piccolo being aliens would fit this definition.
The more recent definition seems to restrict it to additions which contradict previous history: Bulma identifying Goku as human only to be later revealed as alien, apart from a plothole, could fit the second definition, more so if the earlier statement was deemed non-canon, as it tends to happen in American comics.
The more recent descriptions turned the term into a needlessly negative one because a retcon is not by default a bad thing. Goku, who's origins and species are dubious already, being solidified as extraterrestrial opened things up to stuff like Freeza, the Saiyan's, higher levels of Gods,... Another example is Bucky being Winter Soldier, that's a massive retcon to Cap's entire mythology and its widely considered one of the best story arcs Brubaker did on Captain America, I don't see anyone hating that on the principle of being a retcon.

Really, it's how writers use retroactive continuity that makes or breaks them. Bucky being alive and used as a Soviet spy/assassin while Cap was on ice was great, the Xorn.... everything is a hot mess that remains a mess no one can untangle.
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by ABED » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:41 pm

superfan2024 wrote:It probably isn't considered a retcon, but I think Cell pooping/creating the Cell Juniors just came out of nowhere to be honest. It also just wasn't explained at all. I know they were used for a way that Cell could make Gohan get angry, I get it, but it just came out of nowhere and it was unexplained.
It was a spin on Piccolo Daimao's ability. I wouldn't consider it a retcon at all and I don't think it needs an explicit explanation.
4) The ever-increasing levels of deities (aka, Kaios and Kaioshins, Hakaishins, Makaioshins(?), etc.). Not as complicated as most retcons, but I find it annoying every time we are told or given the implication that NO, THESE GUYS ARE THE REAL GODS THAT ARE SUPREME, FOR REAL! At least we finally have the Omni-King, though. Unless...
This one bugs me a lot as well.
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:56 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Really, it's how writers use retroactive continuity that makes or breaks them. Bucky being alive and used as a Soviet spy/assassin while Cap was on ice was great, the Xorn.... everything is a hot mess that remains a mess no one can untangle.
Xorn is a perfect example of several type 2 retcons on top of each other :lol:

But yeah, I agree that a type 1 retcon doesn't have to be bad: even Goku being an alien was hinted at in the original DB. I'd say the second type wasn't invented until readers noticed the clusterfuck comic book continuity had become.
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by ABED » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:12 pm

Doesn't the term predate the Captain America example? I thought it was first coined in reference to reinstating Golden age continuity into more modern continuities.
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:30 pm

ABED wrote:Doesn't the term predate the Captain America example? I thought it was first coined in reference to reinstating Golden age continuity into more modern continuities.
I'm not sure when it first appeared but the principle fits the description: Bucky was definitely dead until Brubaker retconned his survival and subsequent career as WS as something that was always there, we just didn't know about it until we did.
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:10 pm

Now we have to add Android 17 being a "fighting genius".

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by Duo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:15 pm

Elder Kaioshin being sealed by Beerus.
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:48 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:Now we have to add Android 17 being a "fighting genius".
Since when was that established?

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:17 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:Now we have to add Android 17 being a "fighting genius".
Since when was that established?
When he got to be as strong as a Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by Boo Machine » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:22 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:Now we have to add Android 17 being a "fighting genius".
Since when was that established?
When he got to be as strong as a Super Saiyan God.
I don't feel like being strong equates to being a genius at fighting.
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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:25 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Since when was that established?
When he got to be as strong as a Super Saiyan God.
I don't feel like being strong equates to being a genius at fighting.
Yes, I'm simply using the same terminology that was used to explain Freeza's similar power gains. It might be a unofficial fan term, I'm not sure where I got it.

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:31 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote: When he got to be as strong as a Super Saiyan God.
I don't feel like being strong equates to being a genius at fighting.
Yes, I'm simply using the same terminology that was used to explain Freeza's similar power gains. It might be a unofficial fan term, I'm not sure where I got it.
When was it stated that Freeza was genius in fighting? Unless I missed a throwaway line in Resurrection F movie/re-telling. Freeza just never trained before and decided to do so for the first time and got monstrously strong.

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Re: Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:55 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
I don't feel like being strong equates to being a genius at fighting.
Yes, I'm simply using the same terminology that was used to explain Freeza's similar power gains. It might be a unofficial fan term, I'm not sure where I got it.
When was it stated that Freeza was genius in fighting? Unless I missed a throwaway line in Resurrection F movie/re-telling. Freeza just never trained before and decided to do so for the first time and got monstrously strong.
Maybe there isn't a term in the movie, I forget. But he and 17 definitely have to be something abnormal. Gokuu and Vegeta train for years and only reach SSJ3 tier, but they train for less and get dozens of times stronger? They clearly completely outclass the other characters.

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