If Dragonball Z came back on TV would Bruce Faulconer Music come back?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Everyone loves music and it's far more important than sound effects.

Everyone loves sound effects and it's far more important than music.

See? I can do that too.

[Bajosexto]

So where the Japanese Voice actors inexperienced?

Many of the seiyuus were very big names in the industry even before Dragon Ball so they definitely aren't inexperienced.

I knew that the Japanese seiyuus were very experience voice actors before Dragon Ball. That question where you quoted me is me misunderstanding a reply to my comment and not knowing really how to respond. This what I my comment said, "I'm not too familiar with the Japanese Seiyuus, but I do know a lot about the Latin American dub. And the "rookie"/"new guy", Lalo Garza krillin 's VA, had been voice acting professionally for 7 years. I imagine that it was a similar situation with the the Japanese cast. Where even the most "inexperienced" Seiyuus had been voice acting for some time and weren't just some random aspiring actors hired from the street." And 8000 Saiyan responded with, "I don't think it was". So I replied kinda sarcastically with "So where the Japanese Voice actors inexperienced?" Just wanted to clear that up because it seems my comment about the seiyuus and Latin American VA 's being similar, in terms of how experience they were, was not well explained. Basically, what I meant was that like in the Latin American dub, even the least experienced seiyuu had been voice acting for quite a while.

[Gaffer Tape]

I feel like this thread has deteriorated into an endless back and forth of whether or not season 3 actually sucked. It's not moving anywhere, and it's really only been broken up by an absolutely majestic post by Cipher. But actually, while I'm on the side of the pro-original score campers, I wouldn't go nearly so far to say that kids don't care about music, period. You'd better believe that the amazing scores of the Star Wars trilogy left an impression on me as a 9-year-old watching them for the first time. And I don't doubt for a second that those who extol the virtues of the Faulconer score were genuinely moved by those compositions and continue to be. To an extent, even my own personal taste can understand why that might be the case.

But the question that led to this was whether or not the Faulconer score was, pardon the pun, instrumental in DBZ's success in America, not whether or not the score was any good or has a devoted following. It obviously has the latter And while it's almost completely impossible to accurately gauge such a thing, I still hold that it seems highly unlikely that the score was the reason or even a significant reason for that to happen. The show was ALREADY monumentally successful prior to Faulconer coming on board. There's a reason Toonami felt it in their best interests to lead up to season 3 with a week-long marathon of prior episodes, devoting their entire programming block to nothing but Dragon Ball Z. It was already their crown jewel, which was why they commissioned FUNimation for so many new episodes after the show had been in reruns for a year. Expectations were at a fever pitch in September of 1999. And, yes, once they'd gotten that train rolling, the popularity exploded during the course of season 3. And even if the new score was indeed liked by the people watching the show at the time, it seems incredibly illogical to me that that would have been the tipping point for anybody on the fence. "Well, gee, I checked out Dragon Ball Z last season and just couldn't get into it. But now? Hot damn that new music is good!" I'm sorry, but while I maintain that music is an important part of the overall package, I just don't see it being the difference between a potential new fan loving the show hating it. Either they're into the story and premise, or they're not. Honestly, now. Is that the case for even one of the people claiming that the Faulconer music was integral to the success of the show? Is there anyone who just couldn't get into the show when Shuki Levy was composing but was immediately converted to a DBZ fan for life for no other reason than by hearing the dulcet tones of Team Faulconer? I am seriously asking here.

Also, keep in mind, that if this community were as inhospitable towards dubs fans and dub music as Kokonoe claims we are, it's highly unlikely that one of the actual composers of Team Faulconer would be a regular member of this forum and would have been for the better part of a decade.

[Metalwario64]

Also, keep in mind, that if this community were as inhospitable towards dubs fans and dub music as Kokonoe claims we are, it's highly unlikely that one of the actual composers of Team Faulconer would be a regular member of this forum and would have been for the better part of a decade.

Seriously. I thought the old "Kanzenshuu is a sub elitist site and they ban you for liking the dub" mindset that I used to see on other sites years ago had died out at this point.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

But actually, while I'm on the side of the pro-original score campers, I wouldn't go nearly so far to say that kids don't care about music, period.

Not quite what I said, just for the record.

[Gaffer Tape]

But actually, while I'm on the side of the pro-original score campers, I wouldn't go nearly so far to say that kids don't care about music, period.

Not quite what I said, just for the record.

I never said I was referring to you.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

But actually, while I'm on the side of the pro-original score campers, I wouldn't go nearly so far to say that kids don't care about music, period.

Not quite what I said, just for the record.

I never said I was referring to you.

I stupidly misremembered me arguing against children remembering music. Don't mind me, I'm dumb and sleepy. Carry on.

[Valerius Dover]

^That was me who said that. When I say that, I mean most kids. I myself have always been one of the exceptions, so I should know. I'm mostly saying that I agree with the others saying that music is more of a bonus than a deciding factor. And anyone claiming that DBZ is more popular in the US is just fooling themselves. Which series actually did do better in the US? Dragon Ball GT. By their logic, I suppose Mark Menza's score would be the reason for that.

[Kid Buu]

I guess the only way to find out if you somehow contact FUNimation and see if they actually respond.

Personally it wouldn't matter to me since I wouldn't watch it either way.

[ABED]

Everyone loves music and it's far more important than sound effects.

Everyone loves sound effects and it's far more important than music.

See? I can do that too.

Wow, that was just obnoxious. Music has personal and cultural significance. That point is inarguable. There might be a few audiofiles that really love sound effects, but music is profoundly important to people. SFX don't make people cry, whereas music can.

Dave Mustaine has a way with words. I'll always remember this gem, "People want music that makes them either want to fuck or fight." In this case, I think Faulconer's score made kids wanna fight.

Music is important, but it's not the deciding factor why people watch TV and movies.

[Puto]

Well, some sound effects in Star Wars are classics too, like the lightsaber sound effects and Vader's breathing.

[ABED]

Well, some sound effects in Star Wars are classics too, like the lightsaber sound effects and Vader's breathing.

Fair enough, but I meant broadly.

[NitroEX]

As far as kid's not caring about music goes, I would agree that there's some truth to it. In my experience, it definitely seemed as though a large portion of viewers simply didn't care about music in film and TV because it was never a talking point. It was only as I got much older that I could find myself having conversations about it (online and off). As a kid, it would often seem as though discussing anything beyond the superficial (story & characters) in a serious manner would risk being viewed by others as weird, overly obsessive or nerdy behaviour. Maybe others secretly felt the same way and didn't speak up for similar reasons, or maybe they really didn't give it much thought, who knows. My theory is that people who do pay close attention to this stuff are always in the minority, similar to those who appreciate good editing/animation/writing/SFX/VO, though it might not always seem that way given how outspoken certain groups are on the internet. It's easy to look at the thousands of Faulconer die-hards and think they are the majority, when in actual fact, the actual majority are probably closer to those who remember the show but didn't & still don't have a preference either way. I would wager that the Faulconer score's popularity is probably just a result of that version having the widest population to sample from (U.S. + other territories) along with further exposure through home releases with some groupthink and herd mentality influencing others along the way. What I'm basically saying is, they're still a minority, just an overly large one from the perspective of English Dragon Ball communities.

As for the early Ocean dub's Ron Wasserman/Shuki Levy BGM not seeing similar popularity, I have a theory on that. First off, the material that Faulconer's music was attached to are the moments that fans (especially casual ones) most bring up in casual conversation about the show. The payoff of the "epic" transformations after all the long winded build up seem to be what people remember most, which would make a lot of sense considering that people tend to remember the things that have a strong emotional impact on them (which happens a lot in childhood). As great as the early portion of the series may be to some people, I don't think the first 67 episodes have many of the go-to epic moments that casual fans are quick to remember, especially compared to the post Super Saiyan stuff. It's only natural that the music accompanying those later moments would be more fondly remembered for it, not because it's objectively better scored than the previous music, but because it was part of an overall package that created strong emotions for the kids watching.

There's also something to be said for the style of music that was used in both eras. Although I don't personally find the Faulconer stuff to have high production value, the tunes themselves seem to be designed in a way that is more "catchy" and more memorable by design. The Saban tracks seemingly had a different purpose in mind which was to service the need of the animation in a more traditional cartoon style known as mickey mousing. The tracks themselves would blend into each other and change to reflect what was happening on screen but while the Faulconer tracks attempted something similar, the music in the Saban dub often didn't feel as though it was trying to upstage the SFX and vocal performances in the dub, in fact, in a lot of ways it lent itself well to being unnoticeable whereas the Faulconer music was almost too hard to ignore. In Funimation's dub it often felt like the music was competing for the viewer's attention and aside from a few filler tracks here and there, it rarely took a backseat in my opinion.

[8000 Saiyan]

As far as kid's not caring about music goes, I would agree that there's some truth to it. In my experience, it definitely seemed as though a large portion of viewers simply didn't care about music in film and TV because it was never a talking point. It was only as I got much older that I could find myself having conversations about it (online and off). As a kid, it would often seem as though discussing anything beyond the superficial (story & characters) in a serious manner would risk being viewed by others as weird, overly obsessive or nerdy behaviour. Maybe others secretly felt the same way and didn't speak up for similar reasons, or maybe they really didn't give it much thought, who knows. My theory is that people who do pay close attention to this stuff are always in the minority, similar to those who appreciate good editing/animation/writing/SFX/VO, though it might not always seem that way given how outspoken certain groups are on the internet. It's easy to look at the thousands of Faulconer die-hards and think they are the majority, when in actual fact, the actual majority are probably closer to those who remember the show but didn't & still don't have a preference either way. I would wager that the Faulconer score's popularity is probably just a result of that version having the widest population to sample from (U.S. + other territories) along with further exposure through home releases with some groupthink and herd mentality influencing others along the way. What I'm basically saying is, they're still a minority, just an overly large one from the perspective of English Dragon Ball communities.

As for the early Ocean dub's Ron Wasserman/Shuki Levy BGM not seeing similar popularity, I have a theory on that. First off, the material that Faulconer's music was attached to are the moments that fans (especially casual ones) most bring up in casual conversation about the show. The payoff of the "epic" transformations after all the long winded build up seem to be what people remember most, which would make a lot of sense considering that people tend to remember the things that have a strong emotional impact on them (which happens a lot in childhood). As great as the early portion of the series may be to some people, I don't think the first 67 episodes have many of the go-to epic moments that casual fans are quick to remember, especially compared to the post Super Saiyan stuff. It's only natural that the music accompanying those later moments would be more fondly remembered for it, not because it's objectively better scored than the previous music, but because it was part of an overall package that created strong emotions for the kids watching.

There's also something to be said for the style of music that was used in both eras. Although I don't personally find the Faulconer stuff to have high production value, the tunes themselves seem to be designed in a way that is more "catchy" and more memorable by design. The Saban tracks seemingly had a different purpose in mind which was to service the need of the animation in a more traditional cartoon style known as mickey mousing. The tracks themselves would blend into each other and change to reflect what was happening on screen but while the Faulconer tracks attempted something similar, the music in the Saban dub often didn't feel as though it was trying to upstage the SFX and vocal performances in the dub, in fact, in a lot of ways it lent itself well to being unnoticeable whereas the Faulconer music was almost too hard to ignore. In Funimation's dub it often felt like the music was competing for the viewer's attention and aside from a few filler tracks here and there, it rarely took a backseat in my opinion.

You're spot on about the Faulconer score.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Also, keep in mind, that if this community were as inhospitable towards dubs fans and dub music as Kokonoe claims we are, it's highly unlikely that one of the actual composers of Team Faulconer would be a regular member of this forum and would have been for the better part of a decade.

Seriously. I thought the old "Kanzenshuu is a sub elitist site and they ban you for liking the dub" mindset that I used to see on other sites years ago had died out at this point.

Right, I mean there isn't even a world filter anymore!! Hercule Hercule Hercule Hurcle!!!!!!!!

[Kokonoe]

Maybe a problem with this community is that people CANNOT HANDLE someone else's opinion without their being some kind of catch or telling them it's bad as "objective" or trying to make it appear as "fact" when that person explains time and time again why they might think it's good. No one here is above anyone else on their view. Maybe "Human beings capable of communication should know" this?

I 100% agree with that assessment, but...

I don't see how someone could consider the Season 3 dub of DBZ good. It's fucking awful. Actors with no experience whatsoever, just doing impressions of actors with actual experience.

"It's fucking awful" to you. You don't speak for everyone. Enjoy what you wanna enjoy and I'll enjoy what I wanna enjoy.

This was the main comment from you that gave me the impression. However, it's by no means exclusive to you, I'll give you that much. I have problems with the posts of tons of users for the exact same thing.

Either way, I'm exhausted from all of this and annoyed. I think I've honestly about had it with discussing dubs anymore.

You wouldn't be so exhausted if you weren't so hung up on whether your opinions are respected or not. As far as I'm concerned, my contribution is to discuss, respect be damned.

To clarify, I legit do not care if someone's opinion differs from mine, and if that's how it appeared, then I'm going to say once again that I do not mind that at all. What was annoying me at the time was how people were going about their opinion, not that they in fact had one that differed from mine. Another assumption people had about me was that I cannot criticize the dub, yet I mentioned earlier on in this thread that the Farmer's voice in the dub sounding like a southern styled country accent instead of something Japanese was odd to me. No one actually asked me to criticize the dub either, so it felt odd that some people are bothered that I wasn't criticizing it. I criticize what I enjoy often, but there wasn't a reason for me to here.

Someone else made a post talking about "Faulconer fanboys", and saying kids do not care about music, and also mentioning that they aren't blind enough to just enjoy one thing. If that was directed at me, not only is that besides the points I was making, but I've mentioned early in this thread that I can get enjoyment out of all OST's, just that I preferred Faulconer's as the more properly designed score. As a matter of fact, I own this OST (and it's really amazing how many songs are in this collection) and listen to We Gotta Power and We Are Angels quite often alongside the other tracks.

https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%89%E3%8 ... B0012VUYG6

As long as people (including myself) aren't acting as if their view is fact, then I have no qualms with differing opinions. And yes, I do care if someone's view is respected or not, that same care goes to if someone who is a dub fan started mentioning similar things towards people of the original version. To me, it's not about what side you are on, but how you are going about it.

[NintendoBlaze53]

Something the Twitch Power Rangers marathon taught me was that you're allowed to revel in your nostalgia so much as you accept it for what it is. Power Rangers is a dub stupid cheaply made, badly acted show with numerous flaws. And if you can accept that, you are free to love it as much as you want. I saw so many fans say "I loved this as a kid? It's so stupid. But it's so charming", and that's the kind of mindset I wish was had more to Faulconer Productions and the old dub.

Acting is NOT subjective, it is how well an actor does in making you not think you're watching a TV show or that a person is just reading a script. Season 3's acting is hammy and takes you out of the whole experience at times, but if you like it, good, just don't say it's good. There is nothing wrong with liking something that is sub-par. It doesn't make you any less of a person for it. There is a mentality of "If I like it, it must be amazing", people like stupid things, that is a fact. The Yu-Gi-Oh! fanbase have been pretty good at this, most of them have their liking and nostalgia for the English dubs (Me included), but accept the Japanese is superior in almost every way. I wish more communities could learn from them.

[LuckyCat]

Season 3's acting is hammy and takes you out of the whole experience at times, but if you like it, good, just don't say it's good. There is nothing wrong with liking something that is sub-par.

Or I would say don't go around saying that you like something controversial and not expect to get a lot of people to chime in on it. It's like how I love Yamamoto's tracks, sometimes I think they're better than Kikuchi's, but that doesn't mean I can turn a blind eye to what went into Yamamoto's productions and expect everyone to agree with me. When entering a heated topic, you expect backlash.

[Cipher]

I want to clarify that my April Fools' post the other day does not represent my actual opinions on the Faulconer Productions score. I still think it's the most memorable replacement score, regardless of my feelings on whether it should have been there in the first place or whether its compositions were utilized well (no and no, but I did enjoy the atmosphere it lent the series as a kid).

[Kokonoe]

Something the Twitch Power Rangers marathon taught me was that you're allowed to revel in your nostalgia so much as you accept it for what it is. Power Rangers is a dub stupid cheaply made, badly acted show with numerous flaws. And if you can accept that, you are free to love it as much as you want. I saw so many fans say "I loved this as a kid? It's so stupid. But it's so charming", and that's the kind of mindset I wish was had more to Faulconer Productions and the old dub.

Acting is NOT subjective, it is how well an actor does in making you not think you're watching a TV show or that a person is just reading a script. Season 3's acting is hammy and takes you out of the whole experience at times, but if you like it, good, just don't say it's good. There is nothing wrong with liking something that is sub-par. It doesn't make you any less of a person for it. There is a mentality of "If I like it, it must be amazing", people like stupid things, that is a fact. The Yu-Gi-Oh! fanbase have been pretty good at this, most of them have their liking and nostalgia for the English dubs (Me included), but accept the Japanese is superior in almost every way. I wish more communities could learn from them.

Nostalgia does not affect my feelings towards the original English dub by Funimation so that is irrelevant. If I truly felt it was bad as I got older, it would've happened by now after all the times I've rewatched it over the years. I cannot keep liking something for nostalgia, I can only keep enjoying it if it still remains good, and it is to me. In your case, you are accepting something in your own view as bad, but are saying you enjoy it, despite you yourself considering it bad. What one feels about a series and either or not it is "bad" or not is entirely up to the person.

If we're getting into opinions, then I honestly think your opinion is overly harsh on the original dub and not something I agree with as I do not consider it "sub-par". I respect your view nonetheless.

Acting is very much subjective, that is why critics can either like or dislike something about the same actors being portrayed on screen. It's why some critics can love a movie and say it has great acting, while other critics can dislike that same movie and say it has inferior acting. What one defines "good" in this subjective context towards acting and sound is entirely up to the user once again. There are things such as consensus, but consensus opinion still doesn't equate to a factual statement, all it means is that there are a larger number of people who agree with a subjective opinion than the other subjective opinion.

Or I would say don't go around saying that you like something controversial and not expect to get a lot of people to chime in on it. It's like how I love Yamamoto's tracks, sometimes I think they're better than Kikuchi's, but that doesn't mean I can turn a blind eye to what went into Yamamoto's productions and expect everyone to agree with me. When entering a heated topic, you expect backlash.

To say it is "controversial" to enjoy the Cell saga dub is really pushing it, in my opinion. It may be here, but in the USA I'd say there are plenty enough people who enjoyed that arc, they just possibly aren't posting on Kanzenshuu as this site is tailored more to the original Japanese releases of things and requires approval to get into. In terms of this country, if I were to make an assumption, I'd say the Cell saga dub is adored over here in the USA, even if there are people who criticize it (namely fans of the Japanese release). I'd hardly say it's a minority statement to consider it good. I recall my friend who is a huge fan of Dragon Ball Z felt Kai was inferior with the Cell saga because they removed the jokes from our original Funi dub. I'm not saying it cannot be criticized as everything generally can be, but I just don't agree that it's a minority opinion to have if we're talking about the USA audience.