Full frame movies

[arromdee]

Have any releases of the DB or DBZ movies on DVD or BD been in full frame? (Even in Japan)

There are Fusion-Rips/Baaro fansubs of DB movie 1, 3, 4, DBZ movie 7 which are full frame. Does anyone know what source material was used for those?

[Kaboom]

The only release of the DB/Z movies in Japan has been Dragon Box The Movies, and the later singles disc re-releases of those same versions, and they were all cropped to widescreen. However, since the movies were animated in open-matte 4:3, with the intent or at least expectation of being cropped, there's nothing lost in the process with this framing. In fact, the original 4:3 versions reveal some occasional bits of unfinished animation here and there, in parts of the picture that were expected to be cut out by the cropping.

As for releases that keep the 4:3 frame, there's always Funimation's older single releases from the late 90's through early 2000's, before the advent of the "Remastered" editions that accompanied the orange brick sets for the series.

[TheQuazz]

The only release of the DB/Z movies in Japan has been Dragon Box The Movies, and the later singles disc re-releases of those same versions, and they were all cropped to widescreen. However, since the movies were animated in open-matte 4:3, with the intent or at least expectation of being cropped, there's nothing lost in the process with this framing. In fact, the original 4:3 versions reveal some occasional bits of unfinished animation here and there, in parts of the picture that were expected to be cut out by the cropping.

As for releases that keep the 4:3 frame, there's always Funimation's older single releases from the late 90's through early 2000's, before the advent of the "Remastered" editions that accompanied the orange brick sets for the series.

I don't believe it's right to say that NOTHING is lost by cropping the full frame for the movies. There still is information there, even if it was cropped for theatrical showing. And can somebody please provide actual examples of this "unfinished animation"? The only instance I know of is Gohan's Masenko from Movie 3, and it looks like a one-off case.

[superrayman3]

The only release of the DB/Z movies in Japan has been Dragon Box The Movies, and the later singles disc re-releases of those same versions, and they were all cropped to widescreen.

Not true, The DB movies were released on VHS in Japan (I actually own a Japanese VHS copy of DB Movie 1) and the DBZ movies were released on both VHS and Laserdisc in Japan unfortunately IIRC these releases are also cropped.

[sangofe]

Have any releases of the DB or DBZ movies on DVD or BD been in full frame? (Even in Japan)

There are Fustion-Rips/Baaro fansubs of DB movie 1, 3, 4, DBZ movie 7 which are full frame. Does anyone know what source material was used for those?

The French movie box had full frame on most of the movies, but I think it was a mixed bag, actually.

[Danfun64]

There's the Funimation DVD singles, with all the problems that implies (like macroblocking. Ugh) Some of the French DVDs are open matte, but i heard that they were zoomed in more than Funi's singles, possibly to the point where the Dragon Box masters show more picture, but IDK. There's the Big Green DVDs which use an old master originally aimed at VHS but probably look better than that quality. The DB movies got an open matte transfer on DVD and Funimationnow (That being said, Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle looks a lot worse than it does on the 2005 single due to chopping the framerate in half). Finally, while not Open Matte the Double Feature Blu-Rays tend to show a lot more picture than the Dragon Box movie transfers do.

As for other Open Matte stuff, I can't think of anything else that isn't VHS or Video CD footage (The first three DBZ movies were released on Laserdisc by Pioneer, and probably look better than Pioneer's DVDs due to the whole macroblocking issue... but the Ultimate Uncut transfer looks a lot better than both of them.

edit: A more detailed list can be found here. Also take this into account.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

However, since the movies were animated in open-matte 4:3, with the intent or at least expectation of being cropped, there's nothing lost in the process with this framing.

You call this nothing:
[spoiler]
(let's not know what they are standing on. Who cares)[/spoiler][spoiler]
(the circle around Dragon Balls is matching the vertical size of the 4:3 framing juuuuuust by pure accident)[/spoiler][spoiler]
(no comment required)[/spoiler][spoiler]
(who needs half of Goku and Nikkī's and Sansho's heads)[/spoiler][spoiler]
(various unique stuff that was designed and drawn just to be completely removed)[/spoiler]
I call it great looking unique artwork that is a very important part of composition of the scene and makes it look better, fuller and nicer.

Open matte is a filming technique that involves matting out the top and bottom of the film frame in the movie projector (known as a soft matte) for the widescreen theatrical release and then scanning the film without a matte (at Academy ratio) for a full screen home video release.

Which means that the top and the bottom of the frame is fully certified to be seen. I want a full screen home video release!

The more I research, the more I look on the cel/background scans, the more I would not believe even animators themselves, if they would tell me, that the movies were intended to be cropped... The only thing I can believe in is that they were made with both versions in mind. That makes square release objectively better. The ones who don't like the artwork at the top and at the bottom can just press “zoom” button. Here are my random thoughts on the matter:

1. We got DBZ Movies 12 and 13 in cinemas. Fully dubbed, 4:3 AR. Everything looked great. Fully drawn, no mistakes. We also got 4:3 home video release.
2. It's funny how people keep using the “Masenko example”, while ignoring all other scenes, which are literally damaged by the cropping. We have no idea what caused that mistake (Does anybody know more about it?).
3. Cels and backgrounds are bigger than what was shot on film.

OR

1. Manufacturers of paper, cels and paint were charity foundations. Toei figured out that if they are getting materials for free, they can waste as much of them as they want.
2. Animators liked to design and draw stuff especially to be removed. They didn't charge money for that.
3. Toei is so cheap, that they love to buy and waste various materials.

The case is closed for me, but despite that, I'm open to discussion. If somebody has some detailed info (interviews with the staff, articles about production etc.) - I would love to listen to that. If somebody can destroy my arguments one by one - I can gladly admit they are right.

[Puto]

The second French movie boxset (the first one was widescreen and used awful laserdisc masters) has a really nice remastered 4:3 transfer that's miles better than FUNimation's old singles. It only has DBZ movies 7 through 13 though (and the Trunks special, but that's 4:3 even on the Dragon Boxes, so it's not particularly useful).

[Robo4900]

I agree with Kojiro on this.
If you prefer widescreen, there's no reason you can't get a fullscreen release and just zoom in; modern TVs detect movement, and can pan your crop to such areas, making cropped releases pointless and stupid.

Anyway, as for where to actually get them fullframe...

For movies 1-3, you can go for the Funi "Ultimate Uncut" DVDs, or the original Pioneer singles. Pioneer uses a more accurate dub script voiced by the Ocean cast(Circa 1998), but slightly less accurate subs. Ultimate Uncut has nicer video, and subs TL'd by Steve Simmons. Basically, go for Pioneer's DVDs if you watch dubbed; go for Ultimate Uncut if you watch subbed.
For 4-6, the Funi DVD singles are your only option. No dub + JP music track, but subbed by Steve Simmons.
For 7-13, the French DVD box set looks incredible video-wise. But, being French, no English dub track, and no English subs. The PAL conversion method used is speedup, which is mildly annoying, but introduces no real negative side-effects.
Your only other option for 7-13 is the Funi DVD singles.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

modern TVs detect movement, and can pan your crop to such areas, making cropped releases pointless and stupid.

If you have old TV, normal zoom should be enough - widescreen releases of the movies are always center-cropped.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

modern TVs detect movement, and can pan your crop to such areas, making cropped releases pointless and stupid.

If you have old TV, normal zoom should be enough - widescreen releases of the movies are always center-cropped.

Largely centered, but not entirely. You're also losing resolution with the zoom feature, and no one wants that. I personally don't care about the presentation of the movies, I really don't like most of them anyway, but let's not pretend that the zoom feature is some fix-all tool.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Largely centered, but not entirely.

All the stuff I saw when I prepared some comparison screenshots from various movies was center-cropped. Exact middle of the frame.

You're also losing resolution with the zoom feature, and no one wants that.

If somebody does not care for 20% of the picture, they will definitely not nitpick about the resolution. Especially in this situation where the quality difference is minimal.

I personally don't care about the presentation of the movies, I really don't like most of them anyway, but let's not pretend that the zoom feature is some fix-all tool.

So, let's f**k up the release for everybody, becasue you don't care about the presentation and you don't like them? Am I getting this right?

In this particular situation, zoom feature is a fix-all tool. It definitely is.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

So, let's f**k up the release for everybody, becasue you don't care about the presentation and you don't like them? Am I getting this right?

Is that what I said? If it isn't, then no, you aren't getting this right.

I like you PQ advocates, but you guys have the worst habit of conflating indifference with advocacy of the opposite position. Can we try not to do that maybe?

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Is that what I said? If it isn't, then no, you aren't getting this right.

I'm glad that I got this wrong.

I like you PQ advocates, but you guys have the worst habit of conflating indifference with advocacy of the opposite position. Can we try not to do that maybe?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Indifference is our enemy.

[Robo4900]

I like you PQ advocates, but you guys have the worst habit of conflating indifference with advocacy of the opposite position. Can we try not to do that maybe?

Except, a non-cropped release would be the median. TV upscaling/super resolution algorithms are very good nowadays; a zoom to widescreen from an already high-bitrate, fullscreen scan of the movies would look perfectly fine.
At the very least, it'd look better than Funi's current BDs.

Anyway, I have yet to see anyone explain to me why it would be so wrong to release them 4:3. 16:9 fans can zoom, 4:3 fans can just watch, and casual fans will do whatever their TV defaults to, and not care.
The 4:3 picture area was fully drawn, finished, and looks just as great as the rest of the picture. The film masters all even contain the full 4:3 area. Why would Toei waste time, resources, and money on all that if it was never meant to be seen?

[KorgDTR2000]

Toei isn't stupid.

These movies were initially screened in theatres, where widescreen is standard, but Toei knew that the majority of their lifespan would be on television and home video. And while today that's no issue, in 1986 widescreen televisions were still a good twenty years from proliferation. What would make more sense: Drawing the full frame and cropping it for the theatrical release, or drawing in 1.78 and cropping it for the home release? The former, of course. Why spend the money animating something that will be dumped in the trash and lost to history? Better to spend the money on something that will actually be used. So even though the movies were drawn with the knowledge that they would be cropped, they would also be drawn with the knowledge that they wouldn't be cropped.

And of course understanding this only muddies the question of which is the "right" version even further. It's not exclusive to Dragon Ball either; I've seen heated arguments made that the VHS release of The Godfather is definitive because it shows the full frame, and that Hitchcock's compositions in Psycho are actually superior to the 1.78 version.

To me, personally, I prefer cropped. I don't look at it as the right or wrong way, I take the perspective that I'm lucky to be able to watch the movies the way they were presented on the big screen with the full cinematic experience thanks to my widescreen TV. And yeah I can zoom but I do prefer a proper cropped version for purposes of quality, although if I had to watch a 4:3 version I wouldn't even bother zooming. I just don't care that much, it's a mild preference (I guess that makes me the enemy).

Frankly I'm a little surprised we haven't seen a release with the fullscreen version as a bonus feature with some sort of "Original home video release!" nostalgia-bait tag.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Why would Toei waste time, resources, and money on all that if it was never meant to be seen?

Why spend the money animating something that will be dumped in the trash and lost to history?

That's not how it works. Animators are payed by cut and the material cost is negligible. Cropping the footage costs them practically nothing.

[KorgDTR2000]

Why would Toei waste time, resources, and money on all that if it was never meant to be seen?

Why spend the money animating something that will be dumped in the trash and lost to history?

That's not how it works. Animators are payed by cut and the material cost is negligible. Cropping the footage costs them practically nothing.

OK then substitute "money" for "time."

The particulars of the work aren't my point. My point is that it was done knowing that for all intents and purposes the open matte version was going to be the version consumed by the masses.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Why would Toei waste time, resources, and money on all that if it was never meant to be seen?

Why spend the money animating something that will be dumped in the trash and lost to history?

That's not how it works. Animators are payed by cut and the material cost is negligible. Cropping the footage costs them practically nothing.

OK then substitute "money" for "time."

The particulars of the work aren't my point. My point is that it was done knowing that for all intents and purposes the open matte version was going to be the version consumed by the masses.

That's not how the composition of drawings work either. Every inch does not represent a certain amount of time or effort. The closest you could come is measuring by strokes, which will come out more or less equal whether it's cropped to widescreen or not. You can replace it with whatever you want, but that's not how any reasonable non-purist views it, and purists don't run these companies.

[KorgDTR2000]

That's not how the composition of drawings work either. Every inch does not represent a certain amount of time or effort. You can replace it with whatever you want, but that's not how any reasonable non-purist views it.

I know how drawing works, I'm an artist lol. And while the time it takes to compose something isn't really affected by the size and shape of the frame, the time it takes to draw and render that composition does. The extra height of the canvas would add time, and if you multiply that time over the number of frames and backgrounds that need to be drawn and painted over the course of the production it would add up to something.

But I don't know why you're nitpicking a hypothetical question so much anyway. Like I said, it's not my point. My point is that how it looked both cropped and open matte were of equal importance and compositions would have been designed with both in mind.