Why the hate for Bio Broly?

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Re: Why the hate for Bio Broly?

Post by Yuli Ban » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:19 am

Good thing I lurked before wasting more bandwidth!

I honestly believe that Bio-Broly would not be hated anywhere near as much if it weren't for the damn name. It's a fairly decent short DBZ movie— certainly no Fusion Reborn and not even on par with Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan, but I've always appreciated that it gave a bit more love to unusual suspects. Movie 10, for example, copped out of giving the limelight to Gohan and Goten by bullshitting Goku back at the very last minute. Movie 11, on the other hand, actually has Goten, Trunks, and even Krillin deliver the killing blow with Goku nowhere in sight. It doesn't even half-cop out by having Gohan show up (considering he did end two movie villains himself).
I mean for goodness sakes— this movie actually bothered to give character development to Mr. Satan, of all people! Not forgetting some neat bits with Krillin and 18 going on and we also get Goten and Trunks as... just Goten and Trunks, not even Gotenks! The boys themselves have to step up to the plate to save the day.

I mean, it's almost everything we've been asking for:
  • Goku is nowhere to be seen until the last, and I mean the actual last minute of the movie just to justify putting him on the box
  • The supporting characters steal the spotlight
  • Someone other than Goku defeats the villain
  • Mr. Satan gets some background development
  • Goten and Trunks are useful without being fused
  • Human characters help defeat a big bad (again, Krillin joins in with the parting Kamehameha IIRC)
  • Big bad couldn't be defeated just through raw strength and endless ki raising

So why is it the black sheep of the movie series?


That's it. That's literally it. The usual bullshit arguments about quality aside (i.e. "Can't blow up the omniverse with a casual ki blast? You suck!"), the only reason why Bio Broly has failed to garner any real love is entirely because it pissed on Broly's head. Broly is a popular character, that's not changing. This was even truer back in the day when most modern fans were still young and untainted by the hideous, unfaithful, totally foreign, and irrelevant original Japanese version of the series, when this was Biblical truth for many people and Broly decimating the Zetto Senshi was proof enough that he was the god-emperor of the entire mythos.

Broly's original appearance made him seem utterly unstoppable, as if the Hulk smashed into the Z-verse and went Super Saiyan. Due to the animation team rushing things and not being able to more clearly communicate that Broly had a weak spot, it looked like movie 8 completely bullshitted the ending because all relevant Z fighters threw absolutely everything they had at Broly and he kept bending them over and opening a multiverse-wide can of whoopass. What's more, he actually seemed to have a character in movie 8 and it didn't seem like he hated Goku just because he cried a lot as a baby. Again, this could have been communicated better, but Broly was so stupidly unstable that his godly ki was reacting to Goku's, which further made it seem like there was a titanic battle exploding.
Goku had the power of 4 Super Saiyans and a Super Namekian in him and he could still only barely eke out a win because of a lucky shot.

ADD moment: a lot of things about movie 8 are questionable. In-Universe, Gohan would have been the one who gave Goku enough energy to kill Broly because it was clearly stated in the Cell Saga that Gohan was stronger than Goku, let alone Vegeta. Yet in the movie, Toei portrayed Gohan as the weakest of the fighters. He didn't even job because that would assume that he put up a fight. What's more, power scaling changes by a horrifying amount depending on whether or not Toei's writers knew that Goku and Gohan were as powerful as they were. In-Universe, Goku and Gohan were MSSJs beyond even USSJ Trunks. In the movie, however, it seems possible that they're "just" super saiyans. This means a world of difference because if they were MSSJs, that would make LSSJ Broly at least Super Perfect Cell-tier if not higher. However, if they weren't MSSJs (which is possible due to them not being in the form), LSSJ Broly could actually be roughly around Perfect Cell post-zenkai. If Toei had a few more months to work on this movie, it would have been the best of the Z films by far instead of the most mystifying.

Anywho, Broly had a very strong start. In a series that had become "strength = quality", Broly was A1 because the show's A-listers were being ragdolled. Never mind that they were being ragdolled in every movie.
Movie 10 downgraded this a bit, but only in retrospect. This is because rather than our almighty team of Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Piccolo, and Gohan, we only had Gohan, Goten, Trunks, "and" PiccoKrillin. Oh, and Videl. Even at this point in the series, Goten and Trunks were seen as jokes and they didn't have fusion yet, so many fans were disappointed that they carried half the film. Thus, to all the power-obsessed fans, Broly's only real challenge was Gohan. They knew Broly wasn't going to win— never go into one of these anime movies expecting the hero to lose!— so they wanted to gauge Broly's power by the strongest hero to beat him.
Gohan seemed fine! He went Super Saiyan 2, after all, and even then he was being squashed like the disappointing scholarly bug he was. Of course, he managed to put up a better fight than everyone in movie 8 solely because he managed to deal a single blow to Broly that staggered him. This would make sense for SSJ2 Gohan, especially if he's a teenager now, but that only increases the threat Broly poses because it shows that even Gohan going all out barely fazes—

Oh? What's that? Gohan sucks now?


Well that's disappointing. So not only is SSJ2 Teen Gohan about as strong as MSSJ Cell Games-Gohan, he's also a sloppier fighter altogether. We didn't get Vegeta either. Hell, not even Piccolo, because of an admittedly funny gag.

And Kid Trunks pissed on Broly's head.
And Kid Trunks was able to stop Broly's planet-destroying blast just by shooting a little ki blast in front of it.
And Goku saved the day somehow.
And Kid Trunks pissed on Broly's head as Broly moaned sensually as it trickled down his face and lips.

So to those who hyped up Broly as the strongest thing in Dragon Ball lore, this was a pretty disappointing second coming.
But there was one last hope, one chance for Broly to be redeemed as the most dangerous-ass Saiyan to ever live.

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Re: Why the hate for Bio Broly?

Post by Cetra » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:05 pm

Just watched the movie for the first time today. Seemed fine to me. Waited for this infamous "Broly's clone gets killed by water" scene. Never even happened. The clone was killed by the synthetic material. That one took on the shape of Broly's clone for like half a minute - never even indicating that the clone had control over it now - lost its form and then was washed away eventually. So apparently the whole "LOLZ he got defeated by water!!!oneoneone" was also just the ordinary false argument that would eventually come up in a DB discussion.

So yeah, did the movie need Broly? No and considering it was not even our Broly, not at all. But the movie was okay. And more 18 is always a plus for me.

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Re: Why the hate for Bio Broly?

Post by BrolyKale » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:23 am

Broly was pretty well handled in the first movie, in the second coming he just lost his mind and wanted revenge, which makes sense and the third coming wasn't a + for him... but I do think the movie is fine, its even cool if you are a Trunks or/and Goten fan. The concept of the movie was pretty interesting, bringing back Broly as a clone, but the way Broly was handled in that movie wasn't all that good and he also got weaker for no reason...?? he could easily smash Goten and Trunks in the second coming while he was a simple SSJ but couldn't do better in his LSSJ form in Bio Broly... why? no one knows. But since its just a clone I don't really mind, the movie is fine.
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Re: Why the hate for Bio Broly?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:58 pm

Adding to my big post up above, I think that Bio-Broly would have been improved exponentially if there was a real arc with the character himself. As BrolyKale mentioned, there was a major of discrepancy in power between Broly and Bio-Broly. It's long been established that Earthling science is more than capable of surpassing natural alien strength, so if that angle were pursued, Bio-Broly should have been much stronger than the real thing.

If I wanted to tell a decent story that can end Broly's story arc while also making use of Bio-Broly as a real character, I'd probably build off the legend and have it so that Bio-Broly is destroyed by his own power. I recall MasakoX and Shin Budokai working with a story concept where the original Broly lands on Earth and has amnesia; in Masako's scenario, Broly befriends Goten while Shin Budokai had Broly befriend Mr. Satan.
Bio-Broly would have literally no reason to be triggered by Goku whatsoever, which ironically could return to Toei's (probably) original intention where it was Broly's ki reacting to Goku's that caused him to lose control. Coupling a lack of hatred with a much friendlier upbringing and you could have a story where Broly loses control of his ki but can actually at least try to pull off a Kale and attempt to control his power, but for whatever reason he can't accomplish this task, and as a result he destroys himself to prevent himself from bringing harm to his new friends on Earth.

You could even keep with Dragon Ball Z movie tradition and rip off what was going on in the series by setting up a parallel to Majin Vegeta, where the bio-scientists want to control Broly but he breaks free of their control. That way you could have had some heartwarming Broly scenes while still making him this unstoppable force of nature but also have some semblance of growth by showing what he could have potentially been if he wasn't raised by Paragus and wanted to control his power.

If you want a story that ends more optimistically for Broly, you could even possibly have it so that after the "original" Bio-Broly failed, the scientists tried to create a second Bio-Broly that was much more controllable but ironically proved to be completely unstable and became the Legendary Super Turd we otherwise got, and the good Bio-Broly has to control his legendary ki and succeeds in doing so, becoming Super Saiyan 2 (or Mastered LSSJ?), and in the resulting battle, winds up destroying LSTJ Boobly and has to also sacrifice himself as some sort of final atonement while also "satisfying" the legend. You could even have an epic final scene where Bio-Broly and a 'miraculously' appearing Son Bullshitku team up for one mega ki wave before Bio-Broly disintegrates, Shadow the Hedgehog-style, and his arc is finished while Goten and Trunks lament his passing. Hell, even throw Vegeta in there and have him admit that Broly was the true legendary super saiya-jin while Goku can't wait to fight Bio-Broly in the other world.

The story we got was a passable B-movie plot, but it was a real waste that only used Broly for marketing purposes, which ironically would up backfiring hard. It would have been a much more tolerated movie if Broly had nothing to do with it.
Last edited by Yuli Ban on Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why the hate for Bio Broly?

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:01 pm

It made Broly an utter joke, and I'm being objective-I am not a Broly fan. The writers should have went with an original villain.
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Re: Why the hate for Bio Broly?

Post by DestructoDisc » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:38 pm

I don't like Goten, Trunks and Broly so a movie where they are the main characters automatically makes the movie bad to me.

I only like the Mr Satan and 18 stuff. Too bad they nerfed 18 like crazy, and forgot that the androids can't get tired.

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Re: Why the hate for Bio Broly?

Post by Monna » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:33 pm

I like Bio Broly conceptually but his movie is pretty weak. Imo its the weakest of all the DB movies except for maybe Path to Power, but I still like it.

I think my problem with the movie is having Goten and Trunks as the main protagonists. I don't dislike them as characters but they just don't really work as the primary focus imo. I have no problem with Bio Broly himself and I actually think the concept is cool in a cheesy sort of way. If I didn't love all the wacky stuff DB wouldn't be my favorite series lol.

But anyway I would have liked it much more if characters such as Goku or Vegeta or Pikkon or Piccolo fought against Bio Broly instead since they are more interesting to me than Goten, Trunks, and Android 18.

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