Did Super regress Goku's character development?

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Hello, new guy here, sorry if this topic was covered before but this was a subject I have been thinking about for a while.

While Goku has always been a simple character, I wouldn't call him stupid. I reread the manga series last summer and at least through out the series it feels like Goku has matured a bit but still kept his child like and happy go lucky personality. When it came to the Cell games and he stepped down to let Gohan defeat Cell, while some may criticize him for it, but I thought it was a good development in Goku's character. He knew that he couldn't beat Cell, while true he didn't think it through fully, it is a nice step in a direction where he wasn't going to be stubborn and keep fighting til the end. He showed pride and confidence in Gohan's ability to surpass him that he wasn't going to be selfish for a fight against Cell. Even with Buu, since he was dead he didn't want to interfere with new generation, he would pass down his wisdom to Trunks and Goten. Fighting Kid Buu confirmed he could have killed Fat Buu but he wanted the new generation to fend for themselves.

Which brings me to Super, while nothing life threatening has happened in a while between the defeat of Buu to before Beerus showed up. It seems like Goku has kind of doesn't take things seriously. Even with the up coming tournament, while there is urgency he still keeps on saying how fun it will be. While it came to the Cell Games, he did express it would be fun challenging Cell but as we knew their was a reason why he wasn't worried with Gohan. Maybe I'm looking to deep into this since the arc is far from over.

What do you guys think? Did his development regress or am I over thinking this?

[King-K9]

I'm pretty sure it regressed EVERYONE'S development.

[coola]

I'm pretty sure it regressed EVERYONE'S development.

Vegeta is single exception, while he is stil Goku rival, he become more of family man, instead of "I'm gonna surpass Kakarotto" mode he was 24/7 before

[SaiyanGod117]

A lot of people agree his development regressed, so your definitely not overthinking it. Super is a poorly written shown there is either a contradiction or inconsistency every other episode.

[TheMikado]

Hello, new guy here, sorry if this topic was covered before but this was a subject I have been thinking about for a while.

While Goku has always been a simple character, I wouldn't call him stupid. I reread the manga series last summer and at least through out the series it feels like Goku has matured a bit but still kept his child like and happy go lucky personality. When it came to the Cell games and he stepped down to let Gohan defeat Cell, while some may criticize him for it, but I thought it was a good development in Goku's character. He knew that he couldn't beat Cell, while true he didn't think it through fully, it is a nice step in a direction where he wasn't going to be stubborn and keep fighting til the end. He showed pride and confidence in Gohan's ability to surpass him that he wasn't going to be selfish for a fight against Cell. Even with Buu, since he was dead he didn't want to interfere with new generation, he would pass down his wisdom to Trunks and Goten. Fighting Kid Buu confirmed he could have killed Fat Buu but he wanted the new generation to fend for themselves.

Which brings me to Super, while nothing life threatening has happened in a while between the defeat of Buu to before Beerus showed up. It seems like Goku has kind of doesn't take things seriously. Even with the up coming tournament, while there is urgency he still keeps on saying how fun it will be. While it came to the Cell Games, he did express it would be fun challenging Cell but as we knew their was a reason why he wasn't worried with Gohan. Maybe I'm looking to deep into this since the arc is far from over.

What do you guys think? Did his development regress or am I over thinking this?

So, I was watching the Funimation Dub on Toonami which airs back to back to the DBZ kai (buu saga). These are what I personally noticed.

Mr. Satan (Hercule gives Goku 100 million yen). Goku responds by asking is if 100 million is more than 100 thousand.. Despite running a 1 million miles (km) along snake way.
When performing SSG ceremony Goku uses his fingers to count the saiyans. After it fails and Whis says they need 6 saiyans, Goku replies "that's more than we have here, right?"
While at the tournament in Buu saga, one of the helpers tells Goku and the gang that the tournament begins at 1:40, to which Goku states "that's an odd time to start" The helper then goes on to say that they need to be present by 1:30, to which Goku replies without hesitation "Good, that gives us 20 minutes". The first seems to imply Goku is incapable of counting to 5 without some difficulty where as the latter, in my mind, shows Goku has a standard level of understanding on concepts such at time, and basic mathematics.

These are very subtle and not worth writing home about, but the problem is they are consistent and cumulative. Even in the Buu saga we see Goku play detective at the tournament with Piccolo as they size up Kaioshin. Goku immediately senses something is off about them and they are not from here. Goku also senses Piccolo knows what's going on and approaches him privately. Even during Videl's fight Goku is keenly aware way before the others that something is wrong and tells Gohan to tell Videl to throw the fight. Watching them back to back makes the differences between Goku more apparent. I have dozens of examples such as Goku's farming shenanigans but it's a waste of time. The only thing you can do is decide for yourself whether you like this character portrayal or not. Goku is quantifiable different in his presentation in Super vs Z. Whether you are ok with it or not is up to personal tastes.

[precita]

I'm pretty sure it regressed EVERYONE'S development.

I wouldn't say that. Aside from Goku's new characterisation, and maybe Gohan getting weaker again...everyone else has more or less stayed the same as the end of DBZ or matured.

Krillin and 18 are a happily married family and he works as an officer. Gohan/Videl were settled down with a kid. Piccolo helped out around Gohan and Goku's houses. Mr. Satan and Buu live and work together and he's a good friend of the family. Trunks and Goten are still kids (sadly), and Yamcha and Tenshihhan are the same as always. Vegeta is also much different than he was in the Buu saga, but he's not as cocky and he's more laid back.

The thing is there's nowhere else to take these characters, since as we know, the Buu saga was meant to be their end.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku in one or two occasions has been a bit more naive than usual, but it's only played for laughs. He's pretty much the same guy you see in Z. He takes shit seriously when things get very rough and still has the time to enjoy new opponents and different kinds battle scenario.

[Metalwario64]

I'm pretty sure it regressed EVERYONE'S development.

I wouldn't say that. Aside from Goku's new characterisation, and maybe Gohan getting weaker again...everyone else has more or less stayed the same as the end of DBZ or matured.

Krillin and 18 are a happily married family and he works as an officer. Gohan/Videl were settled down with a kid. Piccolo helped out around Gohan and Goku's houses. Mr. Satan and Buu live and work together and he's a good friend of the family. Trunks and Goten are still kids (sadly), and Yamcha and Tenshihhan are the same as always. Vegeta is also much different than he was in the Buu saga, but he's not as cocky and he's more laid back.

The thing is there's nowhere else to take these characters, since as we know, the Buu saga was meant to be their end.

Chichi's way worse than she was in the Buu-arc.

Also, Goku saying he never considered saving the world and only wanted to fight strong opponents goes against a few things in Z, since he originally wanted Gohan to beat Cell, and he wanted Gotenks, and then Gohan to defeat Buu. Of course, even then he still enjoyed fighting Buu, but he was trying to be more responsible, and even in the Cell arc when he was saying goodbye to Gohan, he expressed regret over how selfish he had been (which not even the Kai dub left that line in, unfortunately), and the Buu arc felt like him attempting to make up for that. Goku trying to get Vegeta to fight for the tournament, when Bulma was pregnant was a stark contrast to the Buu arc where Goku kept brushing off Vegeta's requests to fight him, and he didn't fight him until he started killing innocent people.

At least Vegeta's developing very nicely. I think he's honestly the best treated character in Super right now. I love that he's finally settling down after Toriyama made him obsessed with Kakarrot again even as far back as the Kanzenban ending, despite him coming to terms with his obsession during the Buu arc.

[King-K9]

I'm pretty sure it regressed EVERYONE'S development.

Vegeta is single exception, while he is stil Goku rival, he become more of family man, instead of "I'm gonna surpass Kakarotto" mode he was 24/7 before

I'm pretty sure at the end of the Buu saga, he finally admitted that Goku was superior. Why is he still obsessed with surpassing him?

[Metalwario64]

I'm pretty sure it regressed EVERYONE'S development.

Vegeta is single exception, while he is stil Goku rival, he become more of family man, instead of "I'm gonna surpass Kakarotto" mode he was 24/7 before

I'm pretty sure at the end of the Buu saga, he finally admitted that Goku was superior. Why is he still obsessed with surpassing him?

Toriyama already did that when he added the line about Vegeta wanting to still surpass Kakarrot at the end of the Kanzenban ending.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm pretty sure it regressed EVERYONE'S development.

I wouldn't say that. Aside from Goku's new characterisation, and maybe Gohan getting weaker again...everyone else has more or less stayed the same as the end of DBZ or matured.

Krillin and 18 are a happily married family and he works as an officer. Gohan/Videl were settled down with a kid. Piccolo helped out around Gohan and Goku's houses. Mr. Satan and Buu live and work together and he's a good friend of the family. Trunks and Goten are still kids (sadly), and Yamcha and Tenshihhan are the same as always. Vegeta is also much different than he was in the Buu saga, but he's not as cocky and he's more laid back.

The thing is there's nowhere else to take these characters, since as we know, the Buu saga was meant to be their end.

Chichi's way worse than she was in the Buu-arc.

Also, Goku saying he's only cared about fighting strong opponents is annoying, since he originally wanted Gohan to beat Cell, and he wanted Gotenks, and then Gohan to defeat Buu. Of course, even then he still enjoyed fighting Buu, but he was trying to be more responsible, and even in the Cell arc when he was saying goodbye to Gohan, he expressed regret over how selfish he had been (which not even the Kai dub left that line in, unfortunately), and the Buu arc felt like him attempting to make up for that. Goku annoyingly and childishly trying to get Vegeta to fight for the tournament, when Bulma was pregnant was a stark contrast to the Buu arc where Goku kept brushing off Vegeta's requests to fight, and didn't fight him until he started killing innocent people.

At least Vegeta's developing very nicely. I think he's honestly the best treated character in Super right now. I love that he's finally settling down after Toriyama made him obsessed with Kakarrot again even as far back as the Kanzenban ending, despite him coming to terms with his obsession during the Buu arc.

To be fair, Goku does strive for a challenge in fighting stronger opponents. Like... on several occasions. Hell, that characteristic it literally shifts the plot at times.

Goku wanting to fight stronger opponents and better himself is the sole reason he doesn't let Krillin Vegeta, even though he nearly destroys the planet, swears he'll do so in the future and is indirectly responsible for killing nearly all of his friends. Goku just let Vegeta purely because he just wants to fight again in the the hope that he can beat him the future on his own. Goku even acknowledges how selfish it for that request. I mean, if he let Krillin kill Vegeta then the plot would have been radically different. He also let Freeza power up to his maximum strength because he wanted to defeat Freeza at his best, even though he had no idea of just how strong Freeza at 100% was. Hell, the Android and Cell arc flat out don't happen, or at the very least are play out incredibly different, if Goku didn't want to challenge himself and fight the Androids out of curiosity for how strong they are. Even though he's literally told by a person from the future that they bring about the end of the world.

Plus, he doesn't actually say he only cares about fighting strong people. Here is what he actually says in the episode:

"I've never been aware of being a savior, I've come this far wanting to fight strong guys. I just don't like innocent people and animals getting erased. I'm this way from what my grandpa taught me"

[ekrolo2]

Goku's problem in Super, besides randomly being stupider for no good reason at several points, is that the vast majority of the time the series does nothing with him and when it does, in the current arc, it's just yet another escalation of what we've seen before: Goku's gonna make things considerably worse because he wants to have a good time and he'll sort out the actual consequences of this down the line. So, either he's a big load of nothing, or he's just doing the same thing he's done since beating Piccolo.

It's just more proof that, unless you reboot the series or remake it with an entirely different style from scratch, this series and its characters do not have anything left in the tank, they need to all collectively go the fuck away into retirement.

[Metalwario64]

Goku wanting to fight stronger opponents and better himself is the sole reason he doesn't let Krillin Vegeta, even though he nearly destroys the planet, swears he'll do so in the future and is indirectly responsible for killing nearly all of his friends. Goku just let Vegeta purely because he just wants to fight again in the the hope that he can beat him the future on his own. Goku even acknowledges how selfish it for that request. I mean, if he let Krillin kill Vegeta then the plot would have been radically different. He also let Freeza power up to his maximum strength because he wanted to defeat Freeza at his best, even though he had no idea of just how strong Freeza at 100% was. Hell, the Android and Cell arc flat out don't happen, or at the very least are play out incredibly different, if Goku didn't want to challenge himself and fight the Androids out of curiosity for how strong they are. Even though he's literally told by a person from the future that they bring about the end of the world.

I never denied any of this. I'm stating that when he sacrifices himself to Cell, he expresses at least some level of regret for being so selfish. He tells Gohan to "tell Chichi I'm sorry for always selfishly doing what I wanted".

He had some character development, and even though he ended up saving the day again, throughout the Buu arc he at least made some attempt to let other people save the world (which meant he did have protecting the world on his mind at that point, or else he would have finished off fat Buu with SS3).

When I say these things, I'm not saying that retroactively means that all he's ever done is try to protect the world, because he would have went along with Bulma's plans to kill Gero if that were the case, and I'm not denying he's done dangerous and risky things before, but that as the series went on, he tried to curb that to some degree.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku wanting to fight stronger opponents and better himself is the sole reason he doesn't let Krillin Vegeta, even though he nearly destroys the planet, swears he'll do so in the future and is indirectly responsible for killing nearly all of his friends. Goku just let Vegeta purely because he just wants to fight again in the the hope that he can beat him the future on his own. Goku even acknowledges how selfish it for that request. I mean, if he let Krillin kill Vegeta then the plot would have been radically different. He also let Freeza power up to his maximum strength because he wanted to defeat Freeza at his best, even though he had no idea of just how strong Freeza at 100% was. Hell, the Android and Cell arc flat out don't happen, or at the very least are play out incredibly different, if Goku didn't want to challenge himself and fight the Androids out of curiosity for how strong they are. Even though he's literally told by a person from the future that they bring about the end of the world.

I never denied any of this. I'm stating that when he sacrifices himself to Cell, he expresses at least some level of regret for being so selfish. He tells Gohan to "tell Chichi I'm sorry for always selfishly doing what I wanted".

He had some character development, and even though he ended up saving the day again, throughout the Buu arc he at least made some attempt to let other people save the world (which meant he did have protecting the world on his mind at that point, or else he would have finished off fat Buu with SS3).

When I say these things, I'm not saying that retroactively means that all he's ever done is try to protect the world, because he would have went along with Bulma's plans to kill Gero if that were the case, and I'm not denying he's done dangerous and risky things before, but that as the series went on, he tried to curb that to some degree, and now in Super he's threatening half of the universes existence because he wants to fight (which is justified because actually they were all going to be erased anyway, so Goku gets to be selfish and not have any real consequences for it).

But wanting to have the tournament is far from a self thing to request. It's just a tournament between several universes. And opportunity to fight a bunch of strong(?) guys/girl/aliens/robots from parts unknown. And when has Goku ever turned down that kind of opportunity?

I mean, there was really no prerequisite to imply that asking for a tournament would snowball into universes being nuked. Especially since it's Zeno's idea to begin. He was by Beerus and Whis about talking to Zeno, but nobody could have predicted that it would lead to universes being on the line for just wanting to fight some people. And Goku did express, shock, horror and regret over how it escalated to that, and even wanted to talk to Zeno the persuade him out of destroying the universes. So it's not as if Goku is uncaring to what happens to other universes and its inhabitants after the Tournament of Power is over. He does give a shit what happens to other people. He even says so himself in the most recent episode.

[SaintEvolution]

I'm pretty sure it regressed EVERYONE'S development.

I wouldn't say that. Aside from Goku's new characterisation, and maybe Gohan getting weaker again...everyone else has more or less stayed the same as the end of DBZ or matured.

Krillin and 18 are a happily married family and he works as an officer. Gohan/Videl were settled down with a kid. Piccolo helped out around Gohan and Goku's houses. Mr. Satan and Buu live and work together and he's a good friend of the family. Trunks and Goten are still kids (sadly), and Yamcha and Tenshihhan are the same as always. Vegeta is also much different than he was in the Buu saga, but he's not as cocky and he's more laid back.

The thing is there's nowhere else to take these characters, since as we know, the Buu saga was meant to be their end.

Chichi's way worse than she was in the Buu-arc.

Also, Goku saying he never considered saving the world and only wanted to fight strong opponents goes against a few things in Z, since he originally wanted Gohan to beat Cell, and he wanted Gotenks, and then Gohan to defeat Buu. Of course, even then he still enjoyed fighting Buu, but he was trying to be more responsible, and even in the Cell arc when he was saying goodbye to Gohan, he expressed regret over how selfish he had been (which not even the Kai dub left that line in, unfortunately), and the Buu arc felt like him attempting to make up for that. Goku trying to get Vegeta to fight for the tournament, when Bulma was pregnant was a stark contrast to the Buu arc where Goku kept brushing off Vegeta's requests to fight him, and he didn't fight him until he started killing innocent people.

At least Vegeta's developing very nicely. I think he's honestly the best treated character in Super right now. I love that he's finally settling down after Toriyama made him obsessed with Kakarrot again even as far back as the Kanzenban ending, despite him coming to terms with his obsession during the Buu arc.

I think that Chichi's point on Buu Saga was Goku's absence. But with Goku back to earth and alive, she became to be more boring and histerical wife.

I'm pretty sure it regressed EVERYONE'S development.

Vegeta is single exception, while he is stil Goku rival, he become more of family man, instead of "I'm gonna surpass Kakarotto" mode he was 24/7 before

I'm pretty sure at the end of the Buu saga, he finally admitted that Goku was superior. Why is he still obsessed with surpassing him?

Vegeta's obsession to surpass Goku in Super is different of his obsession in Z. In Super, he doesn't see Goku as a potential enemy, but, in a strange way, as a friend maybe, and as an objective to reach.

And most of the characters are the same. It's impossible for everyone to regress.

[lancerman]

This is the most proactive Goku has been as a character since maybe the 23rd tournament or Saiyan Arc. He was kind of a plot device for most of Z.

So I'd say no.

[SaiyanGod117]

Goku in one or two occasions has been a bit more naive than usual, but it's only played for laughs. He's pretty much the same guy you see in Z. He takes shit seriously when things get very rough and still has the time to enjoy new opponents and different kinds battle scenario.

No he isn't, he might have the same tendencies as his Z-self, but in no way, shape, or form does it make him the same character. Really it's not his development that people have a problem with. It's with how he acts, he acts like a complete moron.

[successoroffate]

Well, let's put this way...I love Goku. I grew up watching him so I'm kinda biased. Goku is a guy who took his pants down to show a lady his "Balls." There is nothing Super can do IMO to regress Goku's Character Development any lower.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku in one or two occasions has been a bit more naive than usual, but it's only played for laughs. He's pretty much the same guy you see in Z. He takes shit seriously when things get very rough and still has the time to enjoy new opponents and different kinds battle scenario.

No he isn't, he might have the same tendencies as his Z-self, but in no way, shape, or form does it make him the same character. Really it's not his development that people have a problem with. It's with how he acts, he acts like a complete moron.

I've said it before and I don't want to repeat myself so I'll just re-quote myself:

I'm actually getting kinda tired of the whole "Goku is an idiot" label that people have been slapping on Super with his characterisation. I've only really come across one instance where Goku, in my opinion, showed a distinct lack of intelligence in Super and that was when he couldn't tell that was Beerus wearing a Monaka suit in EP42. But in that circumstance, it was 100% played for laughs and pure filler. Him forgetting stuff like the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar... it's just a case of, well, forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labelling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking your keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work, at home, on the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their life. That shouldn't mean you're stupid. Again, forgetting something important does not qualify as a display of lacking of intelligence or being stupid. I really can't stress this enough. Because if we're going by that logic, we're all fucking idiots.

[SaiyanGod117]

I'm actually getting kinda tired of the whole "Goku is an idiot" label that people have been slapping on Super with his characterisation. I've only really come across one instance where Goku, in my opinion, showed a distinct lack of intelligence in Super and that was when he couldn't tell that was Beerus wearing a Monaka suit in EP42. But in that circumstance, it was 100% played for laughs and pure filler. Him forgetting stuff like the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar... it's just a case of, well, forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labelling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking your keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work, at home, on the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their life. That shouldn't mean you're stupid. Again, forgetting something important does not qualify as a display of lacking of intelligence or being stupid. I really can't stress this enough. Because if we're going by that logic, we're all fucking idiots.

Well thank you for bringing up one instance about Monaka, much appreciated. In addition to the other instance of him forgetting a seal that would've been the key to saving Trunk's future, so yes it was exceedingly dim-witted of him to forget something like that. He should have made sure he had everything in order before he went off. Which makes me bring up another instance of him wanting to go back to the future to fight Black & Zamasu; literally right after he got thrashed by them, without thinking of a plan. Completely the polar opposite of his Z-self, and when he did come up with a plan, it was eat a whole bunch of senzu beans. He wasn't joking either, he was 100% dead serious. More and more as Super continues, Goku feels more out of place each episode. In episode 76 of Super, he couldn't even understand the underlying concept of Krillin reason to keep training to protect his family. Goku's simplistic view of thinking in that situation is borderline insulting. To not only him as a character, but their relationship in general. Krillin a person he's known and fought with for years- decades even, yet couldn't even show a little bit of compassion and understanding. The sad thing is he said the very same thing in the first episode of Super.