Nostalgia VS Objective Criticism of DBZ VS Kai's English Dubs

[Scsigs]

I wanted to start this thread because, recently, I've been reading posts, & have even made a few, in threads where the term "nostalgia" has come up when discussing many fans' preference for the original, amateur, low budget, Z English dub & the later, more comfortably experienced, well-budgeted, Kai English dub.
This ranges from people preferring one dub to another for various reasons, like that they were either kid, or early-teenage, ages when they saw Z & can't get passed their nostalgia to objectively rate the show, or Kai, fairly. Other reasons can crop up, such as music preferences, voice actor preferences, line deliveries, or even lines in general, liking of the extra, long, filler in Z VS Kai's trimming of the fat, etc. The question arises with the older fans that enjoyed Z at a younger age; "Are you thinking objectively, or are you blinded by nostalgia?"
What is "nostalgia"? Merriam-Webster defines it as, "a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition."
When we're children, that's when most of our nostalgia builds. Most every kids' life is great. You enjoyed kids' TV shows of the era, made friends before high school, puberty, & life turns all of us, slowly, into cynics & assholes, & you don't, generally, think about things objectively in a critical way. You only like or dislike something, you don't go much deeper than that. It's also when preferences for things start to form that will develop later in life.
A recent thread that, kinda unfortunately, got closed off on this site called into question if Falconer's replacement score would be used if DBZ were brought back to US TV networks, assuming the networks didn't wanna go with Kai from the off. The guy who started it largely replied with responses that could easily be chalked up to, "I liked the replacement score when I watched the show on Toonami years ago when I was a kid," meaning nostalgia has essentially him gripped by the balls & he doesn't want it to let go. He even tried to justify a lot of his opinions with things that didn't really make sense to be brought up because they're mostly based on conjecture. I had a conversation (argument, actually) with this guy on YouTube after he, rather rudely, commented on a video of mine talking about Kai that went about exactly the same direction to the point where I blocked him on there just to end the argument. Needless to say, if he comes to this thread, expect more of that most likely.
Anyways, he's just one part of the fandom I've read about on places like TV Tropes & have seen in YouTube comments. Another person on this site, who might or might not reply in this thread, said they HATE the word "nostalgia" & thinks of it as an excuse for people to hate on others' preferences for the older dub & takes offense whenever someone brings it up as a possibility for someone's liking of the older Z dub in relation to Kai, despite how it's true for some.
The argument has also been raised in relation to Super, when it comes to the animation & Goku's characterization. While Goku's characterization can certainly be debated with how much it's Toriyama's wanting the character to be more in-line with how he originally envisioned him VS Toei's writers flanderizing his selfish & childish aspects FAR beyond what Toriyama had in mind, the animation is DEFINITELY something I'd chalk partly up to nostalgia goggles, at least with how it's achieved meme-status for the earlier episodes of the first 2 arcs being inconsistent in their quality when originally aired, then mostly fixed for the home releases & Western airings. Sure, the animation's not had a great track record, but that's due to the conditions the animators were/are working under & not having nearly as much time to animate the episodes as they usually get, plus some of them being newbies. It's not great, but it's far from the worst DB has looked. Plus, Z had a pretty big roulette of animation teams working on it that weren't always the best either, which is especially evident in Kai, where they fused parts of episodes together to take out the filler that they did, & parts of the episodes aren't as great as the others when played back to back.
So, where does the nostalgia begin in relation to the objective criticism of the franchise? I created this thread for that very discussion, since it keeps being brought up in others.

[8000 Saiyan]

Nostalgia is something that blinds people's judgement. It's always better and healthier to judge something on its actual quality and not because of nostalgia.

I'l agree with Jinzoningen that this thread is pointless.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Quite frankly, this discussion, while rooted in a justified place, is pointless.

Everyone who comes across this thread will agree that nostalgia has no place in rational, productive analysis, but most people who are affected by nostalgia aren't even self-aware enough to know it. There's also the fact that a discussion over nostalgia almost always degenerates into dub-bashing in this community, and I don't think anyone wants to hear that for the billionth time.

[Scsigs]

Quite frankly, this discussion, while rooted in a justified place, is pointless.

Everyone who comes across this thread will agree that nostalgia has no place in rational, productive analysis, but most people who are affected by nostalgia aren't even self-aware enough to know it. There's also the fact that a discussion over nostalgia almost always degenerates into dub-bashing in this community, and I don't think anyone wants to hear that for the billionth time.

Yeah, I get that. I just thought that it needed its own separate thread because of how bad it got in other places. I'll understand if the staff sees it the same way & closes this thread for that reason.
Honestly, though, I see so many people affected by nostalgia on the internet that it becomes legitimately concerning after a while.

[Metalwario64]

Quite frankly, this discussion, while rooted in a justified place, is pointless.

Everyone who comes across this thread will agree that nostalgia has no place in rational, productive analysis, but most people who are affected by nostalgia aren't even self-aware enough to know it. There's also the fact that a discussion over nostalgia almost always degenerates into dub-bashing in this community, and I don't think anyone wants to hear that for the billionth time.

Years ago, I was like that. I let nostalgia guide me, without admitting it was nostalgia. Nowadays, I still enjoy many of those same things, but if it's just because of comfort and good memories, I'll openly admit it. There are also things I like a lot that are cheesy or overall not well put together, but again, I don't try and pass them off as "good", just to justify my feelings on it.

Again, bringing it back to Dragon Ball, both of these reasons are why I will still watch the old dubs these days. I don't enjoy them "seriously" like I used to, but they bring back good memories, and are occasionally good for a laugh.

Of course, my preferred way to watch the series is the original Japanese version, which I both have nostalgia for (OMG FULL EPS on the old internets), and I enjoy it for it's actual quality. I've recently started rewatching Z in Japanese after quite a few years, and I realize that as much as I like Kai's dub, it's still not quite up to Z in Japanese, even if it's partially due to Kai's faults in and of itself.

[Danfun64]

The problem with Kai is a combination of cutting too much and vocal inconsistency with other DB media, like movies and non-Kai filler arcs. It's kind of sad really, considering how for many regions Kai's dub is better than most pre-Kai dubs... Nonetheless, as much as I prefer accuracy whenever possible (and by extension, prefer watching subbed versions to inaccurate dubs), I'd prefer an inaccurate dub with consistent progression instead of, for example, mixing up watching Z subbed and Kai dubbed. Not to mention that even when the actors are the same, their performances are noticeably different. For example, the Dragon Ball Z Legacy Edition fanedit that includes audio from both the Ultimate Uncut English dub of Z and the English dub of Kai. It can be fairly jarring when the voices are switched around.

Honestly, it's probably better to pretend Kai never existed and instead watch something like the Dragon Ball Recut fanedit project (although if I made a fanedit I'd probably keep more of the filler). Even so, the DB franchise in English has never really had consistent progression in the first place. The closest things you could get to such would be to either allow the use of cut material (which would entail going from BLT DB 1-13 to BW for the remained of DB except for the missing episode to Saban DBZ 1-53 to the original in house funi for the rest etc) or go with Funimation Remastered all the way while using the original Japanese score for everything (which would be the best route for fan edits).

[Scsigs]

The problem with Kai is a combination of cutting too much and vocal inconsistency with other DB media, like movies and non-Kai filler arcs. It's kind of sad really, considering how for many regions Kai's dub is better than most pre-Kai dubs... Nonetheless, as much as I prefer accuracy whenever possible (and by extension, prefer watching subbed versions to inaccurate dubs), I'd prefer an inaccurate dub with consistent progression instead of, for example, mixing up watching Z subbed and Kai dubbed. Not to mention that even when the actors are the same, their performances are noticeably different. For example, the Dragon Ball Z Legacy Edition fanedit that includes audio from both the Ultimate Uncut English dub of Z and the English dub of Kai. It can be fairly jarring when the voices are switched around.

Honestly, it's probably better to pretend Kai never existed and instead watch something like the Dragon Ball Recut fanedit project (although if I made a fanedit I'd probably keep more of the filler). Even so, the DB franchise in English has never really had consistent progression in the first place. The closest things you could get to such would be to either allow the use of cut material (which would entail going from BLT DB 1-13 to BW for the remained of DB except for the missing episode to Saban DBZ 1-53 to the original in house funi for the rest etc) or go with Funimation Remastered all the way while using the original Japanese score for everything (which would be the best route for fan edits).

And that really didn't have much to do with nostalgia. Pretty sure there's a separate thread for discussing Kai itself. Don't get me wrong, I kinda see what you mean, but I don't exactly know if it belongs in this thread.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Quite frankly, this discussion, while rooted in a justified place, is pointless.

Everyone who comes across this thread will agree that nostalgia has no place in rational, productive analysis, but most people who are affected by nostalgia aren't even self-aware enough to know it. There's also the fact that a discussion over nostalgia almost always degenerates into dub-bashing in this community, and I don't think anyone wants to hear that for the billionth time.

Years ago, I was like that. I let nostalgia guide me, without admitting it was nostalgia. Nowadays, I still enjoy many of those same things, but if it's just because of comfort and good memories, I'll openly admit it. There are also things I like a lot that are cheesy or overall not well put together, but again, I don't try and pass them off as "good", just to justify my feelings on it.

Again, bringing it back to Dragon Ball, both of these reasons are why I will still watch the old dubs these days. I don't enjoy them "seriously" like I used to, but they bring back good memories, and are occasionally good for a laugh.

Of course, my preferred way to watch the series is the original Japanese version, which I both have nostalgia for (OMG FULL EPS on the old internets), and I enjoy it for it's actual quality. I've recently started rewatching Z in Japanese after quite a few years, and I realize that as much as I like Kai's dub, it's still not quite up to Z in Japanese, even if it's partially due to Kai's faults in and of itself.

I think we've all been there, especially those of us who got into it when we were kids. I personally have a lot of nostalgia for Japanese version of Kai, since that's the version I first watched through the entire series with. I'll happily admit I have nostalgia for it, but I'd never claim that it's superior to the original track, because it isn't by any measurable standard.

[thaman91]

Years ago, I was like that. I let nostalgia guide me, without admitting it was nostalgia. Nowadays, I still enjoy many of those same things, but if it's just because of comfort and good memories, I'll openly admit it. There are also things I like a lot that are cheesy or overall not well put together, but again, I don't try and pass them off as "good", just to justify my feelings on it.

Again, bringing it back to Dragon Ball, both of these reasons are why I will still watch the old dubs these days. I don't enjoy them "seriously" like I used to, but they bring back good memories, and are occasionally good for a laugh.

Years ago, I actually used to think like this. I let loud voices on the internet convince me that I liked things just for nostalgia. But when I actually truly thought about it, I eventually came to the conclusion that this simply wasn't true. I liked things because of the merits they possessed (though I won't deny that nostalgia plays some factor). And if others didn't agree with me, it's not because I'm "blinded", but instead because either:

1.) We fundamentally disagree about whether a core element works or not

2.) Our criteria for determining what's "good" are different. Perhaps we both see the same flaws, but I might be more inclined to forgive them if I perceive the strengths to outweigh them (or vice versa in another scenario).

As it relates to the Z dub vs. Kai dub, I do consider the Z dub to be a good product overall (including some of its divergent elements as well as elements it retains from the original); but to a newcomer, I'd have to recommend the Kai dub because I consider it to be the better acted, more accurate, and more consistent version that's also more relevant to the Dragon Ball discussion at large since it better represents what Dragon Ball actually is as intended by its original creator.

[Scsigs]

Years ago, I actually used to think like this. I let loud voices on the internet convince me that I liked things just for nostalgia. But when I actually truly thought about it, I eventually came to the conclusion that this simply wasn't true. I liked things because of the merits they possessed (though I won't deny that nostalgia plays some factor). And if others didn't agree with me, it's not because I'm "blinded", but instead because either:

1.) We fundamentally disagree about whether a core element works or not

2.) Our criteria for determining what's "good" are different. Perhaps we both see the same flaws, but I might be more inclined to forgive them if I perceive the strengths to outweigh them (or vice versa in another scenario).

As it relates to the Z dub vs. Kai dub, I do consider the Z dub to be a good product overall (including some of its divergent elements as well as elements it retains from the original); but to a newcomer, I'd have to recommend the Kai dub because I consider it to be the better acted, more accurate, and more consistent version that's also more relevant to the Dragon Ball discussion at large since it better represents what Dragon Ball actually is as intended by its original creator.

Ok, good. That started off a bit rocky, but I can get with the rest. That last paragraph is how I view the shows too. I acknowledge the Z dub is what got the franchise popular initially over here, but it's not the be-all, end-all of the franchise or the shows. Kai's, overall, just a better show in my mind because the pacing's not too slow or too fast, it's just as I'd expect it & the English dub is simply fantastic in my opinion, minus Colleen Clinkenbeard, just in general.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

It was the special in 2008 that gave me more of an appreciation of the original series. In the early 2000s I would be one of those fans saying how the dub is the best thing since betty white. Although even I would admit season 3 was a mess. So when I watched the special subbed, I started to change my mind, while I have neevr watched the series in japanese all the way through. Have watched quite a bit of clips in japanese and I watched Battle of Gods and Super in entirely in Japanese that I have began to appreciate the japanese series even more. While I'll always prefer the dubs (That's just because I don't like reading while watching a show), I have become more appreciative of subs. I think the both scores have their merits. I enjoy both the original and Falcouner scores, each have their both great and down moments.

[Metalwario64]

Years ago, I actually used to think like this. I let loud voices on the internet convince me that I liked things just for nostalgia.

I'm definitely not saying this. That's the other side of the coin. Some people do let nostalgia convince them things were better than they actually were, and some people accuse anyone who prefers anything older as being blinded by nostalgia.

I definitely don't fall in the latter camp, because there are so many older games, movies, anime etc. that I still enjoy to this day. Lots of it on their own merits, some out of nostalgia, sometimes a little of both. My point is that people should be able to separate them.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

With dragonball the problem tends to be people who don't understand or fully grasp what they're criticizing that makes them unable to do so rationally and without bias. Its one thing to criticize music placement, but your suggestion for an alternative should still hold the same context: as opposed to for example, people that just say Bruce Faulconer was better only because thats what they saw first. Or criticizing dialogue with what is better wording of something comparable, and not because the first dub gives one the impression of recognizable 90s badassery (even if the original scene was meant to convey something else). In parallel when people from the Sailormoon fandom compare or judge the DiC dub vs. Cloveryway vs. Viz, they tend to do so with the Japanese version in mind for a baseline, not which version makes them feel young.

[King-K9]

While I admit that Kai is objectively better, I still prefer the original Z dub.

[simtek34]

While I admit that Kai is objectively better, I still prefer the original Z dub.

And WHY do you prefer the Original Z Dub? That's the question. Is it for nostalgia? Better music? Explain Why!

[Robo4900]

The original Funimation Dragon Ball Z dub, aswell as the three original Ocean dubs(BLT, Saban, Westwood) all fit into the same category of being a poor translation of the original work, but they are highly enjoyable if taken as what they are -- kinda cheesy American '90s cartoons.
Yes, the original work is Japanese, but with all the dub changes, the replacement score, and the general tone shift, it's still definitely Dragon Ball, and still most certainly of Japanese origin, but it's been Americanised into its own thing. Still very enjoyable taken on its own, but Kai is just a better localisation in that it's actually accurate to the source material.

Which one you prefer is entirely up to the individual, as they are vastly different beasts.
Nostalgia certainly factors into it, but the original dub wasn't an inherently bad piece of media, it's just not very accurate to the source material. Rather like The Mask.

However, I'd say the "Remastered" dub ruins this in many respects, and is strictly worse than both; it takes it from being the fun '90s thing the dub was into being kind of more accurate to the source material, which puts it in a rather odd middle-ground that fails to be either a faithful adaptation, or the weird '90s thing the dub was originally produced as. A sort of uncanny valley, if you will.
The Ultimate Uncut dub of episodes 1-67 almost fell into this trap too, but they didn't have the constant switching between redubbed and original voices, making it much more consistent, and much easier to get into.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The original Dragon Ball Z dub, aswell as the three original Ocean dubs(BLT, Saban, Westwood) all fit into the same category of being a poor translation of the original work, but they are highly enjoyable if taken as what they are -- kinda cheesy American '90s cartoons.
Yes, the original work is Japanese, but with all the dub changes, the replacement score, and the general tone shift, it's still definitely Dragon Ball, and still most certainly of Japanese origin, but it's been Americanised into its own thing. Still very enjoyable taken on its own, but Kai is just a better localisation in that it's actually accurate to the source material.

Which one you prefer is entirely up to the individual, as they are vastly different beasts.
Nostalgia certainly factors into it, but the original dub wasn't an inherently bad piece of media, it's just not very accurate to the source material. Rather like The Mask.

I 100% agree for the Ocean cast. The scripts were corny, but the performances, especially those that were corny or over-the-top, are so charming and memorable. The Funimation Texas dub, despite having an identical script for the Z portion, didn't even have the talent to back up the "reversion". Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the dub. In fact, I've been revisiting it lately, and I think I could even live with that version if I had to. However, it's not, or at least it won't be to most, more enjoyable when taken on its own merits.

However, I'd say the "Remastered" dub ruins this in many respects, and is strictly worse than both; it takes it from being the fun '90s thing the dub was into being kind of more accurate to the source material, which puts it in a rather odd middle-ground that fails to be either a faithful adaptation, or the weird '90s thing the dub was originally produced as. A sort of uncanny valley, if you will.
The Ultimate Uncut dub of episodes 1-67 almost fell into this trap too, but they didn't have the constant switching between redubbed and original voices, making it much more consistent, and much easier to get into.

Frankendub didn't change that much though. The scripts are still largely inaccurate, and in a way that stays true to the old dub. The worst I could mention about it is the talent gap, notably regarding Vegeta.

[Robo4900]

I 100% agree for the Ocean cast. The scripts were corny, but the performances, especially those that were corny or over-the-top, are so charming and memorable. The Funimation Texas dub, despite having an identical script for the Z portion, didn't even have the talent to back up the "reversion". Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the dub. In fact, I've been revisiting it lately, and I think I could even live with that version if I had to. However, it's not, or at least it won't be to most, more enjoyable when taken on its own merits.

Well indeed. I must admit, I do find the cheesy voice acting on the Funimation dub fairly charming, but yeah, the Ocean stuff is infinitely more enjoyable, so if I'm watching the dub, I switch to the Westwood dub as soon as it starts; it may not be perfect, but it's sure as hell better than Funimation's stuff from that era.
This is why we need Ocean Kai; imagine how good it would be if Brian Drummond, Scott McNeil, and the gang had actually good material in Dragon Ball for once!

Frankendub didn't change that much though. The scripts are still largely inaccurate, and in a way that stays true to the old dub. The worst I could mention about it is the talent gap, notably regarding Vegeta.

Ah, right.
Still, part of the charm of the old Funi dub was the cheesy voice acting. And the good part about the Ultimate Uncut redub was, like in the Saban dub, the fact it was well-produced and still had the cheesy dialogue in there. The problem is, getting the switching between these two with the redubs makes for a pretty poor viewing experience.

[Danfun64]

I wonder how many there are that only watch the frankendub for 68-74 (partially because most of those episodes don't line up with the Japanese episodes, partially because the Faulconer placement in a couple of the remastered versions is rearranged, and partially because the original dub of the so-called Captain Ginyu Saga episodes is in an omnibus format which has complete disregard with the idea of syncing up to the Japanese.) which if one wanted as close to the original dub experience as possible on disc format would be getting all of the Ultimate Uncut Singles, the Level 1.2 Blu-Ray, either the Season One Blu-Ray or the streamed 2.1 episodes from questionable sources, the Season Two Blu-Ray, and then the Singles for the rest.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I wonder how many there are that only watch the frankendub for 68-74 (partially because most of those episodes don't line up with the Japanese episodes, partially because the Faulconer placement in a couple of the remastered versions is rearranged, and partially because the original dub of the so-called Captain Ginyu Saga episodes is in an omnibus format which has complete disregard with the idea of syncing up to the Japanese.) which if one wanted as close to the original dub experience as possible on disc format would be getting all of the Ultimate Uncut Singles, the Level 1.2 Blu-Ray, either the Season One Blu-Ray or the streamed 2.1 episodes from questionable sources, the Season Two Blu-Ray, and then the Singles for the rest.

I doubt many would bother. Frankendub is still basically the old Funimation dub, it just had a few little botox injections. There are probably a handful of die-hard Texas dub fans who do things the difficult way just to experience the original, though.