Nostalgia VS Objective Criticism of DBZ VS Kai's English Dubs

[TheMikado]

The original Funimation Dragon Ball Z dub, aswell as the three original Ocean dubs(BLT, Saban, Westwood) all fit into the same category of being a poor translation of the original work, but they are highly enjoyable if taken as what they are -- kinda cheesy American '90s cartoons.
Yes, the original work is Japanese, but with all the dub changes, the replacement score, and the general tone shift, it's still definitely Dragon Ball, and still most certainly of Japanese origin, but it's been Americanised into its own thing. Still very enjoyable taken on its own, but Kai is just a better localisation in that it's actually accurate to the source material.

Which one you prefer is entirely up to the individual, as they are vastly different beasts.
Nostalgia certainly factors into it, but the original dub wasn't an inherently bad piece of media, it's just not very accurate to the source material. Rather like The Mask.

However, I'd say the "Remastered" dub ruins this in many respects, and is strictly worse than both; it takes it from being the fun '90s thing the dub was into being kind of more accurate to the source material, which puts it in a rather odd middle-ground that fails to be either a faithful adaptation, or the weird '90s thing the dub was originally produced as. A sort of uncanny valley, if you will.
The Ultimate Uncut dub of episodes 1-67 almost fell into this trap too, but they didn't have the constant switching between redubbed and original voices, making it much more consistent, and much easier to get into.

And this is really it. Getting caught up in the purity wars is will be the franchises undoing in my opinion. A lot of people enjoy the original funi dub because it appeals to their westernized tastes. I've be watching the Buu arc in both and I definitely prefer the funi dub. And absolutely detest, read "HATE" the original Japanese score and themes which often ruin the experience of me. It's just preference, but touting purity above all else doesn't make it objectively "better".

[ABED]

What exactly is the experience for you?

[Robo4900]

and partially because the original dub of the so-called Captain Ginyu Saga episodes is in an omnibus format which has complete disregard with the idea of syncing up to the Japanese.

That's not quite true.

The TV broadcast versions of the Ginyu saga episodes had to have some odd edits due to the fact Saban's episode 53 ended half-way through the uncut episode 67, and DBZ had to fit in a half-hour timeslot, so Funimation did some clever editing for the TV versions starting from their #54 by cutting scenes from the uncut footage for their TV versions so they could slowly make their way closer and closer to being in-step with the Japanese episodes over the course of the Ginyu saga(Episode 54 ends with Ginyu and Jeice flying off to find Goku in the TV version, which is about 15 minutes into #68's uncut footage; episode 55 ends with Ginyu having Goku in a Nelson, which is about 17 minutes into #69's uncut footage... You get the idea).
This wasn't the case on the home video version you see on the DVD singles; instead, they simply made episode #54 about 10 minutes longer(Adding in all the extra footage from #67), thus making the DVD single episodes basically line up with the Japanese uncut episodes starting from 10 minutes into episode 54.

which if one wanted as close to the original dub experience as possible on disc format would be getting all of the Ultimate Uncut Singles, the Level 1.2 Blu-Ray, either the Season One Blu-Ray or the streamed 2.1 episodes from questionable sources, the Season Two Blu-Ray, and then the Singles for the rest.

Indeed.
I've always thought it'd be nice if they provided an option to listen to the original dub for episodes 68-291. Naturally, they'd have to either relegate the last 10 minutes of episode 67 to a bonus feature, or just not include it at all, but since the original dub had many different voice recordings early on, and some different music placement, it'd be nice if they had it as an option. The home video version starting from 10 minutes into episode 54 fit with the uncut footage, so in theory, it could be done.

[Danfun64]

Sorry, I meant to say that the Captain Ginyu saga episodes were only released on VHS and DVD as Omnibus.

[8000 Saiyan]

I 100% agree for the Ocean cast. The scripts were corny, but the performances, especially those that were corny or over-the-top, are so charming and memorable. The Funimation Texas dub, despite having an identical script for the Z portion, didn't even have the talent to back up the "reversion". Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the dub. In fact, I've been revisiting it lately, and I think I could even live with that version if I had to. However, it's not, or at least it won't be to most, more enjoyable when taken on its own merits.

Well indeed. I must admit, I do find the cheesy voice acting on the Funimation dub fairly charming, but yeah, the Ocean stuff is infinitely more enjoyable, so if I'm watching the dub, I switch to the Westwood dub as soon as it starts; it may not be perfect, but it's sure as hell better than Funimation's stuff from that era.
This is why we need Ocean Kai; imagine how good it would be if Brian Drummond, Scott McNeil, and the gang had actually good material in Dragon Ball for once!

Frankendub didn't change that much though. The scripts are still largely inaccurate, and in a way that stays true to the old dub. The worst I could mention about it is the talent gap, notably regarding Vegeta.

Ah, right.
Still, part of the charm of the old Funi dub was the cheesy voice acting. And the good part about the Ultimate Uncut redub was, like in the Saban dub, the fact it was well-produced and still had the cheesy dialogue in there. The problem is, getting the switching between these two with the redubs makes for a pretty poor viewing experience.

But the Ocean guys had good material in the three movies they dubbed. I know what you mean, though.

[TheMikado]

What exactly is the experience for you?

The original funi version made Goku, much more of an action hero in the traditional 80s/90s sense. He was a Chuck Norris/Rambo/Jean Claude Van Damme, type character.
He was an accidental or casual hero and only because trouble was brought to his doorstep.
Even in the funi dub, the Goku as Superman trope is grossly exaggerated. It's very apparent Goku isn't out looking for bad guys to serve justice to and neither were the american heros.
However they did have great catchphrases or monologues and the bad ass rock music to accompany their feats. Goku is definitely the "action hero" americans wanted and the dub reflects those tastes.

[King-K9]

While I admit that Kai is objectively better, I still prefer the original Z dub.

And WHY do you prefer the Original Z Dub? That's the question. Is it for nostalgia? Better music? Explain Why!

For me it's a matter of lines, music, respect for some of the original actors, and a little bit of nostalgia here and there.

As much as I like Travis Willingham as Cell and Kyle Herbert as future Gohan, they honestly don't really hold a candle to Daimian Clarke as both. Bruce Faulconer's music in my opinion fits perfectly with the show. Even better than any composer before or after him. And this dub is what got me into Dragon ball in the first place.

[Gonstead]

As much as I like Travis Willingham as Cell and Kyle Herbert as future Gohan, they honestly don't really hold a candle to Daimian Clarke as both. Bruce Faulconer's music in my opinion fits perfectly with the show. Even better than any composer before or after him. And this dub is what got me into Dragon ball in the first place.

Travis Willingham doesn't voice Cell in Kai though.

[ABED]

What exactly is the experience for you?

The original funi version made Goku, much more of an action hero in the traditional 80s/90s sense. He was a Chuck Norris/Rambo/Jean Claude Van Damme, type character.
He was an accidental or casual hero and only because trouble was brought to his doorstep.
Even in the funi dub, the Goku as Superman trope is grossly exaggerated. It's very apparent Goku isn't out looking for bad guys to serve justice to and neither were the american heros.
However they did have great catchphrases or monologues and the bad ass rock music to accompany their feats. Goku is definitely the "action hero" americans wanted and the dub reflects those tastes.

Have you seen any of the Rambo movies? He's not that heroic in the first one and in the rest of them, trouble doesn't come to his doorstep. I know that's splitting hairs and not exactly your point, but Rambo is mischaracterized as an over the top 80s action hero. He's a Veitnam vet with terrible PTSD. Even in the sequels, trouble doesn't come to him, he's brought in to save people or in the case of the fourth movie, he decides to go into Burma to save charity workers because his code won't allow him to leave them to die.

To the extent that Goku wasn't looking to meet out justice is because the original dictated it, and no amount of rewrites can hide that, but the dub did have Goku making a ton of speeches about justice and morality.

I love rock music, but a needle drop can be incongruous to the moment. I wouldn't call Faulconer's score bad ass rock music either. Goku is already an action hero and I'm absolutely certain he would appeal to Americans without the reinterpretation.

[ekrolo2]

Goku doesn't make sense in the original one and not in the way you might think I mean this. If they altered the story details to fit his characterization, regardless of your feelings on the changes, they'd at least make some degree of sense.

However, trying to make Goku more about justice and herocis does NOT work with his decision to say let Gero create the Androids. That works for selfish Goku, for the old Z dub one it doesn't because having a good time isn't what he's about. So you've got this guy who's trying to talk like a generic copy of Superman but who acts like Goku usually does and those two do not fit together.

[Robo4900]

But the Ocean guys had good material in the three movies they dubbed. I know what you mean, though.

Good point.

Still, that was the movies. And as good as the first two are(Not a fan of Tree Of Might; aside from Ocean's dub, there's very little that draws me in to rewatch it), there's no Vegeta in the three they dubbed.
Granted, a lack of Vegeta isn't necessarily a huge problem(If I could choose one arc from the whole franchise for Ocean to do a new dub of, it'd be the Piccolo Daimao arc), but it certainly helps.

Although, this is a good point still; Ocean's work on the Pioneer trilogy proves that that cast kicked all of the ass, so they have both nostalgia and objective quality on their side.
I'm never going to get over how poor a decision it was for Funimation to get rid of Ocean in 1999. Even worse was AB Groupe making the same mistake for DB and GT in 2004, which resulted in the messy Blue Water dubs, which could have easily been the highlight of all AB Groupe's dubs, if only they'd kept the Ocean cast. Who knows, this could have then lead to the Ocean guys doing more uncut movie dubs instead of the Big Green dub. It really annoys me how much incompetence has permeated Dragon Ball's handling in the west.

[NitroEX]

Still, that was the movies. And as good as the first two are, there's no Vegeta in the three they dubbed.

Plus we'll never hear what Ocean's Lord Slug, Cooler and Broly might've sounded like (to name a few).

Who knows, this could have then lead to the Ocean guys doing more uncut movie dubs instead of the Big Green dub.

What's interesting is that if that had happened we most likely would've had 3 Ocean versions of Tree of Might (Funi/Saban, Pioneer and AB) plus 2 Ocean versions of both Dead Zone and World's Strongest (Pioneer & AB). It would have been very strange to say the least, especially since Kirby Morrow would've most likely reprised Goku during that era, giving us a whole new take on those Goku movie scenes. Come to think of it, I wonder if those hypothetical AB versions would have sold any better on DVD than what we actually got in Europe. Who knows, it might've actually given AB incentive to keep releasing Ocean dubbed DVDs of English DBZ. If only that company wasn't so stupid and struck while the iron was hot, like Funimation did.

Then again, if they somehow were forced to use AB or Toei's butchered translations as the Big Green production did, it could've also been a bit of a disaster, although not to the same degree. Something tells me Ocean wouldn't ever botch things that badly. If they would have translated it themselves it would've been great. The majority of the cast probably wouldn't be too thrilled to dub the same movie a third time though, understandably. That might've sapped some enthusiasm from the performance.

[Robo4900]

Plus we'll never hear what Ocean's Lord Slug, Cooler and Broly might've sounded like (to name a few).

Well... Broly would be cool to hear, but I have a hard time caring about the other two.
I'm sure I'm not alone in that.
An Ocean dub of the Broly movie would kick a lot of ass, though.

What's interesting is that if that had happened we most likely would've had 3 Ocean versions of Tree of Might (Funi/Saban, Pioneer and AB) plus 2 Ocean versions of both Dead Zone and World's Strongest (Pioneer & AB). It would have been very strange to say the least, especially since Kirby Morrow would've most likely reprised Goku during that era, giving us a whole new take on those Goku movie scenes. Come to think of it, I wonder if those hypothetical AB versions would have sold any better on DVD than what we actually got in Europe. Who knows, it might've actually given AB incentive to keep releasing Ocean dubbed DVDs of English DBZ. If only that company wasn't so stupid and struck while the iron was hot, like Funimation did.

Then again, if they somehow were forced to use AB or Toei's butchered translations as the Big Green production did, it could've also been a bit of a disaster, although not to the same degree. Something tells me Ocean wouldn't ever botch things that badly. If they would have translated it themselves it would've been great. The majority of the cast probably wouldn't be too thrilled to dub the same movie a third time though, understandably. That might've sapped some enthusiasm from the performance.

Ocean would probably have just used their connection to Funimation to use their scripts for movies 4-13(Like what they did for the latter half of their dub of the series), if AB Groupe didn't want to spend the money on a new translation.
Yeah, keeping Ocean on would have probably made their dubs of the movies a lot more popular, which would have possibly lead to some DVD releases of their version of the series. That would've been nice.
In this hypothetical, I imagine this would take us up to about 2006, maybe 2007. Only 2 years shy of Kai, which would likely lead to an Ocean Kai dub financed by AB Groupe, although it's possible they would just end up re-using their old voice recordings from the Westwood dub, if they still had the isolated voice tracks(Although I highly doubt this). In this hypothetical, I imagine Ocean would probably be providing an alternate dub of Super right now.

Anyway, this is just speculation. No point lingering on hypotheticals. The big deal right now about Ocean is that Ocean Kai is out there. In theory, this could be like their Pioneer dubs, but with years more experience, a few recasts, and a replacement score(Which, given the current state of Kai's music, I am absolutely fine with). This would, in theory, be the best mix of having the nostalgic voices and performances, with a more faithful script. If only we could hear it.

[Danfun64]

Somehow I think that if AB Groupe kept Ocean for the movies, it's possible they would have imported the Toonami cuts of Pioneer DBZ Movies 1 (with the opening scene I hope, as according to DBZ Uncensored it didn't appear on the full length edit on Toonami but appeared on the episodic cut...and I know for a fact that it was included on the version included in the Rock the Dragon Collection) & 2 along with Saban DBZ Movie 3. For the stuff that Funi already did by the time the AB Groupe dubs the rest of the movies, they might have repeated what they did with the series proper, importing the edited versions and replacing the music wholesale. If the AB Groupe wanted to keep on going with the Ocean cast and go past the movies Funi did at the time, they might have done something similar to the Blue Water dubs of DB and DBGT (meaning French video and audio masters, script not strictly based off French dub like Big Green was, Japanese music aside from OP and ED which might use the Westwood DBZ intro, minimal to no edits)

[NitroEX]

Plus we'll never hear what Ocean's Lord Slug, Cooler and Broly might've sounded like (to name a few).

Well... Broly would be cool to hear, but I have a hard time caring about the other two.
I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Fair enough. It's not something that's easy to imagine now because of how ingrained the Funimation versions are (most of which are admittedly very satisfactory) but I think if Ocean had dipped into the Vancouver talent pool for a few non DBZ regulars, the casting of the villains would've been fantastic. Someone like Christopher Judge for example (who voiced a few cartoons in Vancouver at the time) would've made an exceptionally good Cooler, or at the very least, Bojack. I don't currently have any solid ideas for Lord Slug (Garry Chalk seems like he could work though) but Micheal Donovan seems like a solid pick for Android 13.
Also keep in mind that there were actors like Paul Dobson and David Kaye who only had a minor presence in the Ocean Z dub(s). The movies would've been a great opportunity to put them to better use.

The only voice I think they'd struggle to top would be Vic Mignogna's Broly, aside from that, the rest of the Funimation villain performances aren't too spectacular in my opinion. If Ocean had the opportunity they probably could've done better in most cases.

Ocean would probably have just used their connection to Funimation to use their scripts for movies 4-13(Like what they did for the latter half of their dub of the series), if AB Groupe didn't want to spend the money on a new translation.

Maybe.. Although the timeframe in which AB dubbed the movies was before Funimation had finished dubbing all of theirs (They didn't release movie 13 until late 2006) so Funi's scripts would only take them so far. Ocean were/are competent enough on the translating front so I guess it would just depend on how flexible AB would've been with the schedule.

[8000 Saiyan]

I'm never going to get over how poor a decision it was for Funimation to get rid of Ocean in 1999.

While Funi has done great with Kai and the recent stuff, I agree.

Plus we'll never hear what Ocean's Lord Slug, Cooler and Broly might've sounded like (to name a few).

Well... Broly would be cool to hear, but I have a hard time caring about the other two.
I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Fair enough. It's not something that's easy to imagine now because of how ingrained the Funimation versions are (most of which are admittedly very satisfactory) but I think if Ocean had dipped into the Vancouver talent pool for a few non DBZ regulars, the casting of the villains would've been fantastic. Someone like Christopher Judge for example (who voiced a few cartoons in Vancouver at the time) would've made an exceptionally good Cooler, or at the very least, Bojack. I don't currently have any solid ideas for Lord Slug (Garry Chalk seems like he could work though) but Micheal Donovan seems like a solid pick for Android 13.
Also keep in mind that there were actors like Paul Dobson and David Kaye who only had a minor presence in the Ocean Z dub(s). The movies would've been a great opportunity to put them to better use.

The only voice I think they'd struggle to top would be Vic Mignogna's Broly, aside from that, the rest of the Funimation villain performances aren't too spectacular in my opinion. If Ocean had the opportunity they probably could've done better in most cases.

Blu Mankuma and Alvin Sanders would have been great fits for Lord Slug IMO. As for Paul Dobson and David Kaye, they would have done great as Bardock and Cooler respectively, possibly even better than Strait and Chandler.

[HybridSaiyan]

Always and forever be a sucker for the Original Funi and maybe Nostalgia does factor my opinion but I don't care. Everything about it is perfect to me, and that's what made me a Dragon Ball fan. If I had probably watched the japanese version as a kid, I probably would've gotten bored or something. I do enjoy Kai, but BF just steals the win for me, as well as the metal rock bands they played In the movies. It really reflects the violence and epicness.

This Is a prime example of one Goku's most heroic badass quotes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz1AzN48RJA&t=67s

[Robo4900]

Actually, that's one thing I will say: Sean Schemmel is probably one of the only voices who I actually really liked pre-Kai. (Kelamis was better, though) A shame he was so poorly directed a lot of the time in original Z.

Someone like Christopher Judge for example (who voiced a few cartoons in Vancouver at the time) would've made an exceptionally good Cooler, or at the very least, Bojack.

Oh man, Teal'c in Dragon Ball?
That would be incredible.