Cell vs Buu: which arc was more seemless in shifting gears?

[matt0044]

That is to say, what handled certain changes like the main villains and the main plot line.

With the Cell Saga, I hardly got the sense that the change from the Androids to Cell was a decision forced by the story editors. Say what you will about certain character decisions but Toriyama's "writing by the seat of his pants" method hardly showed itself (at face value at least).

With Buu, well, after merely one outting with Gohan as Great Saiyaman, Videl recognizes him and we shift gears to the newest Tenkaichi Budokai. I'll give the Anime props for managing to take advantage of such potential and create fairly entertaining filler out of it but even then, the shift feels... too transparent. And then comes Supreme Kai and the Majin Buu plot after the Junior Division's tourney, feeling like they came out of nowhere. Hell, Videl got a beatdown and never got the chance to at least get even.

Thoughts? Wonder how the latter could've been smoothed out?

[Desassina]

I agree that the Androids' transition into Cell was seamless, and that the Great Saiyaman's into Majin Boo needed some work, but I'm not qualified to make suggestions.

[precita]

Cell arc easily. If Gero and 19 were just the main villains all saga, that would have been terrible.

If 17, 18 and 16 were the main villains, I guess it would have been fine, but the stakes didn't seem as high. I also liked how Cell transformed from snake like creature to more human.

The Buu saga was fine too, I don't mind Gohan not killing him since the final fight on the Kai's world with Goku and Vegeta working together in canon for the first time (outside the movies) and the Spirit Bomb from Earth ended the series well.

[sintzu]

Say what you will about certain character decisions but Toriyama's "writing by the seat of his pants" method hardly showed itself.

After watching both Z&DB (I saw Z first) I thought he had everything planned out from the start.

In terms of the question, the Cell arc's transition felt a bit more natural and connected but overall I think Toriyama did a great job at having everything feel like one connected story.

[Doctor.]

The Cell arc's transition from #19 and #20 as the villains to #18 and #17 felt forced considering Trunks specifically states #19 and #20 are the names of the androids attacking his future.

I don't see how the transition to the Majin Boo arc appears forced considering Kaioshin is introduced right at the beginning of the main tournament.

[matt0044]

I don't see how the transition to the Majin Boo arc appears forced considering Kaioshin is introduced right at the beginning of the main tournament.

Well, it's more with the Saiyaman stuff being dropped so early that the Anime actually did better with filler stories of Gohan's superheroing.

[matt0044]

The Cell arc's transition from #19 and #20 as the villains to #18 and #17 felt forced considering Trunks specifically states #19 and #20 are the names of the androids attacking his future.

In the Manga. The Anime had the foresight to take out the names so the misunderstanding would be clear. Strange that translations and other releases never fixed this too.

With 17, 18 and Cell, I think it felt more seamless because it all came back to Doctor Gero and his machinations to kill Goku so as to finish what the RR Army began. With the Great Saiyaman changing to Buu, there's a definite moment where you can see the story didn't think Gohan as the high schooler superhero was going to work out.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Cell easily. It and the Saiyan arc felt like asspulls done right. More so with Cell, as it fits perfectly within the lore of the Red Ribbon army and Gero's plan. You would never have guessed that it wasn't intentional. Cell's character especially being a tie into the themes of Goku wanting to fight the best of the best in a tournament style challenge and Cell being the sum of everything Goku fought up to that point was perfect, along with his shared desire for that fight from Goku. Not to mention Cell being Gero's final project of all his research and Gohan being the equivalent in a way (as Goku took note of Gohan's hidden power all throughout the series) I feel like this relationship embodies what DB used to be about, before the posing-justice heroes became the thing now.

Cell's backstory was also handled very well, as it made it seem like 17 & 18 were the sub-bosses, considering their personalities as they were couldn't carry an entire saga, and the same thing above 19 & 20. Same issue, excellent transition. What helped was that all of their movies were different enough to not make it obvious that they were being replaced, but part of a bigger plan.

[matt0044]

I feel like they could've transitioned from the Martial Arts Tournament to Buu a lot better by completing the tournament and having the winner suddenly get his energy drained as that's the power Bobidi would desire.

[KBABZ]

I feel like they could've transitioned from the Martial Arts Tournament to Buu a lot better by completing the tournament and having the winner suddenly get his energy drained as that's the power Bobidi would desire.

That would also feel a lot like the 22nd Tournament, for better or worse. Where basically the winner is decided and then the next arc kicks right into gear almost as soon as that happens.

[Kuwabara]

In a literal sense, the Buu arc shifts gears smoother since Toriyama doubles back twice on the Cell arc's main source of conflict. That said, the Cell arc still managed to feel more like a natural progression. Buu feels like Toriyama going out of his way to top the level of silliness at each and every turn, leading to a lot of narrative bait-and-switch.

[ABED]

The Cell arc's transition from #19 and #20 as the villains to #18 and #17 felt forced considering Trunks specifically states #19 and #20 are the names of the androids attacking his future.

I don't see how the transition to the Majin Boo arc appears forced considering Kaioshin is introduced right at the beginning of the main tournament.

It's the equivalent of a typo. The plot isn't dependent on the numbering. Even if he changed the numbering, how does that mean it feels forced? In the Buu arc, the plot feels forced because he has Goku say he couldn't defeat Buu and fights Vegeta evenly after saying he was going to go full power. We later learned that's BS on both accounts, but Goku not only doesn't lie, he wouldn't fight someone weaker than him for fun. He enjoys a challenge and Vegeta wouldn't be a challenge. Goku's actions feel forced because Toriyama made it up on the fly and had to cover his ass by sacrificing his characters for the sake of the plot.

In a literal sense, the Buu arc shifts gears smoother since Toriyama doubles back twice on the Cell arc's main source of conflict. That said, the Cell arc still managed to feel more like a natural progression. Buu feels like Toriyama going out of his way to top the level of silliness at each and every turn, leading to a lot of narrative bait-and-switch.

The issue isn't whether the author changed his mind, it's whether the switch is apparent in the final product. Even when I first saw DBZ, I never thought it was leading to either 19 and 20 or 17 and 18. First, for a big bad, they are confronted awfully early and two teens don't feel grand enough.

That would also feel a lot like the 22nd Tournament, for better or worse. Where basically the winner is decided and then the next arc kicks right into gear almost as soon as that happens.

The shock was one of the best moments of the entire series and I don't see how the transition from the tournament to the main conflict was too quick.

the Saiyaman stuff being dropped so early

Considering how little conflict there is in those stories, what more could you get out of it. If anything, the anime spends too much time on it. I guess it just goes to show that pacing is a matter of opinion. What is too fast for some is too slow for others.

[KBABZ]

He enjoys a challenge and Vegeta wouldn't be a challenge. Goku's actions feel forced because Toriyama made it up on the fly and had to cover his ass by sacrificing his characters for the sake of the plot.

On the bit with Vegeta, I personally figured that Goku had enough respect for Vegeta by that point to go along with his wishes despite knowing that it'd be a walkover if he actually did go all-out. And Vegeta rightfully calls him out on it.

That would also feel a lot like the 22nd Tournament, for better or worse. Where basically the winner is decided and then the next arc kicks right into gear almost as soon as that happens.

The shock was one of the best moments of the entire series and I don't see how the transition from the tournament to the main conflict was too quick.

I wasn't criticizing it! I like it as well because of how much it comes out of nowhere and forces the characters into a conflict unlike anything they've been through before. The "for worse" part I mentioned was how it would feel like recycling the same arc transition, although the exact circumstances are different.

[ABED]

But that's not respecting his wishes. Vegeta wanted to fight Goku at his best. What he got was Goku fighting him with both hands tied behinds his back.

The only similarity is that it takes place around a tournament, but in this case, it interrupts the tournament. As you know, Kuririn was killed AFTER the 22nd tournament.

[KBABZ]

But that's not respecting his wishes. Vegeta wanted to fight Goku at his best. What he got was Goku fighting him with both hands tied behinds his back.

Which was Goku's mistake; he thought he was doing the right thing, but he wasn't and screwed up.

The only similarity is that it takes place around a tournament, but in this case, it interrupts the tournament. As you know, Kuririn was killed AFTER the 22nd tournament.

I interpreted the idea that it would be after a winner is decided that the goons would drop in and steal their energy. It would interrupt the tournament as an overall event, but not the actual deciding of a winner.

[Kunzait_83]

The Cell arc's transition from #19 and #20 as the villains to #18 and #17 felt forced considering Trunks specifically states #19 and #20 are the names of the androids attacking his future.

In the Manga. The Anime had the foresight to take out the names so the misunderstanding would be clear. Strange that translations and other releases never fixed this too.

I could've sworn this mistake was fixed for the Kanzenban release, no?

[MajinMan]

I don't really see the issue with the Majin Buu arc transitions. If anything, the introduction of the Kaioshin is one of the most mysterious and interesting parts of the whole series. There's so much mystery and tension during his scenes early on, especially if you're experiencing it for the first time.

[Vijay]

Ps: hope this thread doesnt deviate into 10,000th time "Why Goku didnt finish Majin Vegeta using SSJ3" Got stale man. 20 years & STILL gonna discuss this over 5 pages?

Personally, I'd say it would be a disgrace to Toriyama himself if I lie by saying I never saw gear-shift in & Majin Boo Arc

Face it. DBZ was action-centric ever since Saiyan Arc. Hell, it got dark as f*** in some parts of Namek & Android Arc. Which were rivetting & puts me on the edge of my seat

Boo Arc had drastic TONAL SHIFT from action to slapstick comedy post-Majin Vegeta's sacrifice

All the seriousness thrown outta window & ridiculous jokes were thrown in (which upon repeated viewing I enjoyed).

It wasnt until Ultimate/Chou Gohan vs Super Boo that Majin Boo Arc felt like DBZ again. It was all-out war till end of DBZ

[ABED]

I interpreted the idea that it would be after a winner is decided that the goons would drop in and steal their energy. It would interrupt the tournament as an overall event, but not the actual deciding of a winner.

But the tournament doesn't mean much anymore by this point, so I don't see much value in staying with that before moving on with the plot. Besides, as is, by interrupting the tournament, it plays into Vegeta's growing irritation. He only went to the tournament to fight Goku and this situation interrupts his plans.

[Ripper 30]

to me The transition from Androids to Cell felt more natural since it blended perfectly with the plot and we already had Those androids to fear and it shifting into cell arc and later on us finding out that it was all Cell's planning to come to past and absorb the androids it seemed much more natural to have cell as the big bad guy than Seeing the Tone change in Boo Arc from saiyaman adventure to Tenkaichi Budokai to finally Boo arc.