Why is the Jaco manga good but Dragon ball Minus bad?

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UltimateHammerBro
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Re: Why is the Jaco manga good but Dragon ball Minus bad?

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Thu May 11, 2017 5:41 am

I personally think they tried to make Goku's backstory slightly more palatable to a Western audience, or at least turn it into what they think is more palatable. Not that I agree with this, but I find it likely.

They (Toriyama, his editor, or whoever dictated the story) may have thought that the whole "he's the son of a blood-thirsty warrior who didn't care that much about him" could clash a bit, so they turned it into "hey, look, his family isn't that bad", basically turning them into Jor-El and Lara, and retconning parts of a well-loved special, as well as the manga.

IMO, it wouldn't be the first time they do something similar. I used to think the way they treated Hell in both the manga and the anime could be a bit jarring from a Western mindset, and when I saw Freeza's hell in RF, I thought they had tried to Westernise it a bit, even if the fairies and stuffed toys don't make it obvious.
Last edited by UltimateHammerBro on Thu May 11, 2017 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is the Jaco manga good but Dragon ball Minus bad?

Post by TheMikado » Thu May 11, 2017 6:22 am

Toriyama doesn't seem to do well when his stories are in outline or checklist form. His style seems to be that he has general points he likes to hit and then wings it from there to link them through small details. If the story is organically woven together it works well. If it's a bunch of plot points that don't organically link it tends to show.

My personal opinion, Toriyama should never deliver partial outlines. I think his strength is developing a concept to which point he should let others complete the rest or see the concept all the way through himself and not half way do it.

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Re: Why is the Jaco manga good but Dragon ball Minus bad?

Post by TheZFighter » Thu May 11, 2017 2:25 pm

I've been a fan of this series since the late 90s and not once have I questioned Goku's mother. If Toriyama didn't want to do it then it literally shouldn't have been done. No point half-arsing it.
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Re: Why is the Jaco manga good but Dragon ball Minus bad?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu May 11, 2017 4:27 pm

TheMikado wrote:Toriyama doesn't seem to do well when his stories are in outline or checklist form. His style seems to be that he has general points he likes to hit and then wings it from there to link them through small details. If the story is organically woven together it works well. If it's a bunch of plot points that don't organically link it tends to show.

My personal opinion, Toriyama should never deliver partial outlines. I think his strength is developing a concept to which point he should let others complete the rest or see the concept all the way through himself and not half way do it.
This is more or less what I'm thinking too. He seems like a guy who can make even a shitty concept work a fairly good amount of the time but if you have him keep it a barebones checklist or hand that checklist off to other people, odds are a lot of stuffs not gonna come together.

Resurrection F is a fantastic example of the former while both incarnations of Super are an example of the later.
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Re: Why is the Jaco manga good but Dragon ball Minus bad?

Post by TheMikado » Thu May 11, 2017 5:09 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Toriyama doesn't seem to do well when his stories are in outline or checklist form. His style seems to be that he has general points he likes to hit and then wings it from there to link them through small details. If the story is organically woven together it works well. If it's a bunch of plot points that don't organically link it tends to show.

My personal opinion, Toriyama should never deliver partial outlines. I think his strength is developing a concept to which point he should let others complete the rest or see the concept all the way through himself and not half way do it.
This is more or less what I'm thinking too. He seems like a guy who can make even a shitty concept work a fairly good amount of the time but if you have him keep it a barebones checklist or hand that checklist off to other people, odds are a lot of stuffs not gonna come together.

Resurrection F is a fantastic example of the former while both incarnations of Super are an example of the later.
Exactly RoF shouldn't even work at all, and while I hate it on principle of not only bringing Frieza back but given both SSJ and Frieza a palette swap it's still not a bad product it just happened to have some of the things I personally hate the most in it.

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Re: Why is the Jaco manga good but Dragon ball Minus bad?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu May 11, 2017 5:12 pm

TheMikado wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Toriyama doesn't seem to do well when his stories are in outline or checklist form. His style seems to be that he has general points he likes to hit and then wings it from there to link them through small details. If the story is organically woven together it works well. If it's a bunch of plot points that don't organically link it tends to show.

My personal opinion, Toriyama should never deliver partial outlines. I think his strength is developing a concept to which point he should let others complete the rest or see the concept all the way through himself and not half way do it.
This is more or less what I'm thinking too. He seems like a guy who can make even a shitty concept work a fairly good amount of the time but if you have him keep it a barebones checklist or hand that checklist off to other people, odds are a lot of stuffs not gonna come together.

Resurrection F is a fantastic example of the former while both incarnations of Super are an example of the later.
Exactly RoF shouldn't even work at all, and while I hate it on principle of not only bringing Frieza back but given both SSJ and Frieza a palette swap it's still not a bad product it just happened to have some of the things I personally hate the most in it.
F could've been good if Toriyama didn't let his non-script get made into a movie or if he worked with someone else to write it. It says a lot about the movie when a LOT of shit in it was made up way after Toriyama sent in his non-script to Toei.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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