Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:29 am

I don't know how this discussion drifted to Islam, but let me just say this: Religious people who are generally good will use the good things in their holy books to justify their actions, and do their best to ignore the bad things. Religious people who are generally bad will use the bad things in their holy books to justify their actions, and do their best to ignore the good things.
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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:27 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:I don't know how this discussion drifted to Islam, but let me just say this: Religious people who are generally good will use the good things in their holy books to justify their actions, and do their best to ignore the bad things. Religious people who are generally bad will use the bad things in their holy books to justify their actions, and do their best to ignore the good things.
Can you read their minds and tell, which parts of their holy books will they use? (now or in the future) I think that this is the biggest problem here. We never know what to expect.

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Blackstripe » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:03 am

Kojiro Sasaki wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:I don't know how this discussion drifted to Islam, but let me just say this: Religious people who are generally good will use the good things in their holy books to justify their actions, and do their best to ignore the bad things. Religious people who are generally bad will use the bad things in their holy books to justify their actions, and do their best to ignore the good things.
Can you read their minds and tell, which parts of their holy books will they use? (now or in the future) I think that this is the biggest problem here. We never know what to expect.
It doesn't really matter, because even if they didn't have a holy book, bad people would just find some other excuse to commit evil.

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:10 am

Blackstripe wrote:It doesn't really matter, because even if they didn't have a holy book, bad people would just find some other excuse to commit evil.
You're right, but as we see, mentioned books are often the main reason of violence.

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Blackstripe » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:38 am

Kojiro Sasaki wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:It doesn't really matter, because even if they didn't have a holy book, bad people would just find some other excuse to commit evil.
You're right, but as we see, mentioned books are often the main reason of violence.
Well, understanding that requires you to understand history...and Islamic history is rather fascinating.

When it was conceived, it was considerably more progressive than Christianity at the time. In fact, it was practically made to be seen as a better alternative for as many people as possible. Islam's much maligned stance on women today was in fact massively progressive for the 7th century AD. The Quran says that a woman has half the say of a man...the rest of the world in the 7th century pretty much said she had no say. The Jizya tax that non-Muslims paid in conquered territories was often lower than what they were paying their local rulers at the time. Factors such as these is why Islam took off the way it did in the Middle East. Many were willing to convert and follow the teachings of Islam because, at the time, they seemed a lot more fair than the available alternatives.

Things started to change in the 13th century. Many think the Crusades were responsible for radicalizing Islam, but no, not really. The forces of Islam pretty much defeated the Crusades handily. No, what really started Islam's decline was the sack of Baghdad at the hands of the Mongols in 1258. Baghdad had been pretty much the scientific and cultural heart of the world before that day, and countless texts were lost when the city fell. Islam never really recovered from this, and while the west went through the renaissance and left behind many of their more barbaric practices with time (though this took many centuries), Islam pretty much remained stuck in the past.

And so now you have it in its current state, where it is often interpreted by many in very Medieval terms.

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:55 am

Blackstripe wrote:Well, understanding that requires you to understand history...and Islamic history is rather fascinating.

When it was conceived, it was considerably more progressive than Christianity at the time. In fact, it was practically made to be seen as a better alternative for as many people as possible. Islam's much maligned stance on women today was in fact massively progressive for the 7th century AD. The Quran says that a woman has half the say of a man...the rest of the world in the 7th century pretty much said she had no say. The Jizya tax that non-Muslims paid in conquered territories was often lower than what they were paying their local rulers at the time. Factors such as these is why Islam took off the way it did in the Middle East. Many were willing to convert and follow the teachings of Islam because, at the time, they seemed a lot more fair than the available alternatives.

Things started to change in the 13th century. Many think the Crusades were responsible for radicalizing Islam, but no, not really. The forces of Islam pretty much defeated the Crusades handily. No, what really started Islam's decline was the sack of Baghdad at the hands of the Mongols in 1258. Baghdad had been pretty much the scientific and cultural heart of the world before that day, and countless texts were lost when the city fell. Islam never really recovered from this, and while the west went through the renaissance and left behind many of their more barbaric practices with time (though this took many centuries), Islam pretty much remained stuck in the past.

And so now you have it in its current state, where it is often interpreted by many in very Medieval terms.
Of course that you need to know the history to understand what's going on, but my short comments refered directly to current situation. They were the description of today's reality. Is it happening? Yes. How to understand it? By studing history and religion. I fully agree.

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by cheddarsword » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:03 am

Blackstripe wrote:
Kojiro Sasaki wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:It doesn't really matter, because even if they didn't have a holy book, bad people would just find some other excuse to commit evil.
You're right, but as we see, mentioned books are often the main reason of violence.
Well, understanding that requires you to understand history...and Islamic history is rather fascinating.

When it was conceived, it was considerably more progressive than Christianity at the time. In fact, it was practically made to be seen as a better alternative for as many people as possible. Islam's much maligned stance on women today was in fact massively progressive for the 7th century AD. The Quran says that a woman has half the say of a man...the rest of the world in the 7th century pretty much said she had no say. The Jizya tax that non-Muslims paid in conquered territories was often lower than what they were paying their local rulers at the time. Factors such as these is why Islam took off the way it did in the Middle East. Many were willing to convert and follow the teachings of Islam because, at the time, they seemed a lot more fair than the available alternatives.

Things started to change in the 13th century. Many think the Crusades were responsible for radicalizing Islam, but no, not really. The forces of Islam pretty much defeated the Crusades handily. No, what really started Islam's decline was the sack of Baghdad at the hands of the Mongols in 1258. Baghdad had been pretty much the scientific and cultural heart of the world before that day, and countless texts were lost when the city fell. Islam never really recovered from this, and while the west went through the renaissance and left behind many of their more barbaric practices with time (though this took many centuries), Islam pretty much remained stuck in the past.

And so now you have it in its current state, where it is often interpreted by many in very Medieval terms.
Side note: The term "christianity" back in that time was mostly in relation to the Roman Catholic church. While that religion is indeed still prominent today, though far less restrictive than it was then, it is no longer the only form of christianity with two of the most prominent beliefs being Pentacostal and Baptist, each with their own offshoots.

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:28 am

cheddarsword wrote: Side note: The term "christianity" back in that time was mostly in relation to the Roman Catholic church. While that religion is indeed still prominent today, though far less restrictive than it was then, it is no longer the only form of christianity with two of the most prominent beliefs being Pentacostal and Baptist, each with their own offshoots.
Several protestant denominations are far more strict than the Catholic church was, and Islam is not a monolithic entity either. Not sure how this point is really relevant.
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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:39 am

Kojiro Sasaki wrote:Don't forget that if “getting something into the 21st century” means treating women like people, it suggest that they weren't treated like people in 20th or 19th century. I think that it's an insult to many of our ancestors. Those are too sharp words.
I know this was pages and pages back, and the poster in question just got banned: but I clouldn't let this one go without highlighting and comment. This quote represents a very, very special breed of ignorance and stupidity.

This person expressed a sincere belief that women were treated perfectly fine in not only the entirety of the 20th century... but also the 19th.

Women. In the 19th century. You know, when women not only didn't have the right to vote, but couldn't own property, couldn't generally pursue careers, were still mostly FORCED into marriage at a ridiculously, absurdly early age, were paid a pittance of the wages that made made for the exact same kinds of work in the cases where they WERE allowed to work, and generally lived like and were treated as downtrodden house servants and baby factories by much of the rest of society. At best maybe arm candy if they caught the eye of a wealthy noble or political figure.

Yes you know, that Shangri-La Utopian Golden Era for society's treatment of women. Before the Civil War and the invention of the fucking lightbulb or telephone and when black people were still legally considered property as well as three fifths of a human being. Back then, we TOTALLY had our collective heads on straight about how women should be treated.

I mean... look, you can call me the dreaded "SJW" tag all you want here; but if you're someone who fails to grasp the cold, hard, simple historical reality that women as a collective whole in just U.S. society alone (nevermind wherever else) were treated basically like complete utter garbage up until maybe, MAYBE 40/50-ish years ago AT BEST (and I'm being EXCEEDINGLY generous there)... you are simply not living in the same reality as everyone else. Particularly the women who had to live through those times (many of whom yes, are still very much alive and among us: that's how "not that long ago" this time in history was).

I don't in any way consider myself the prototypical internet-loathed breed of College Slacktivist SJW - because frankly those kids are complete and utter morons who have no understanding or self-awareness whatsoever of how much damage they're doing to their own pet causes just by being so over the top extremist and ridiculous - but make no mistake there IS a flipside to their brand of idiocy too. In the same way that current day SJW's will shriek and holler that EVERYTHING that ever was is racist and sexist, there are also just as many people out there on the far right who will claim that NOTHING is EVER racist or sexist, under ANY circumstances. That its all over, those are things of the distant, distant past that we've long since "beaten".

Both of those extremes are wrong and stupid (one is Boy Who Cried Wolf, the other is just stone cold head in the sand denial)... but the above quote is very firmly in the latter category of extreme denial (what? there's no sexism! that never happened! even in the 19th century women had it made!), and the reality is that as much as we all like to think that we've come a long way (and in many ways we certainly have) and that all of these ugly social attitudes were a very, very long time ago... they really, REALLY weren't. There are, again, people who LIVED THROUGH those darker times that are still among us. People who marched with MLK in the Civil Rights era, women who fought for domestic civil liberties as late as the 1970s, gay people who were there for the Stonewall riots and the first true beginnings of a proper LGBT rights movement. People from that time are still alive today. And not just the heroes from those periods, but also the villains. And the latter have had children of their own.

Even keeping this strictly to women here: did you know that marital rape was actually FULLY LEGAL in the United States until as pathetically recently as the EARLY GODDAMNED 90s? I've been alive since about a good solid decade before it became officially illegal for a husband to rape his wife in the United States. Pong, Pacman, Space Invaders, Star Wars, Nintendo/Mario, Sega/Sonic, Terminator, Robocop, Street Fighter, the Aliens/Predator series, Michael Jackson, Prince, Madonna, Nirvana, most of John Carpenter's classic oeuvre, Fist of the North Star, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Berserk, and yes even our beloved Dragon Ball, to name but a few, were ALL things that were around when it was still totally cool by law across numerous states in the U.S. for a husband to forcibly and without consent fuck his wife without any regard for her protests. In America. Let. That. Sink. In.

Ultimate point being: NONE OF THIS WAS THAT LONG AGO STILL. Grand scheme of things. This is all, historically, still technically in the VERY recent past. Which should tell you why it is that, suddenly, a LOT of old resentments and prejudices are bubbling back up these days in more recent years. For awhile there, in fits and spurts, yes these things kind of cooled down a little bit (though that also depends on who you ask: any black person that's had to deal with a police officer in this country would have damn good reason to beg to differ there). But this stuff NEVER actually fully went away anywhere, and it DAMN sure was never "beaten". Thinking that it was and that the heyday of bigotry and tribalistic demonization of "the other" was all in some far off distant, half-forgotten past (and yes, there's a LOT of kids today who fully believed that until stupidly recently).... that's a comforting, naive, feel-good fantasy and always has been. Nicest possible way of saying it.

Sorry. That above quote was just the most gobsmackingly stupid, ignorant thing I've seen on here in... maybe ever. Or close to it. And that's damn sure saying something.

I'll take this actually back around to Dragon Ball now.

This topic of DB and feminism is actually directly tied to something that I'd originally meant to post on here years, and years, and years, and years back (in my previous life as a solidly regular poster).

So we're taking Bulma's time machine back, back, baaaaaaack to the much, MUCH earlier years of U.S. DB fandom before FUNimation ever entered the picture, and when I was just a snot nosed little punk myself.

Saved for posterity, this here is probably still one of my favorite ever Usenet posts from back in the old-olden pre-dub days. Comes courtesy of none other than Curtis Hoffman, the guy who back then was responsible for the first complete set of Dragon Ball manga summaries. This was a post he made back in February of 1994, in a thread regarding Chi Chi's likability among us then-western readers/viewers, where he compares and contrasts Chi Chi and Bulma's characterizations and notes numerous real life Japanese cultural parallels between them.

Considering Chi Chi tends to be such a hotbed of discourse on feminism in DB, and I've so very rarely ever seen anyone make the (extremely logical) comparisons between her and Bulma since the CN years really first began, I figured this was a can worth finally re-opening.
Curtis Hoffman wrote:In a previous post, Seawasp identifies Chi Chi, from Dragon Ball Z, as one of his most hated characters, citing her selfishness, mindless doting over Gohan, and lack of concern towards her husband has the major strikes against her. A few other net people sided with him on this.

So...

When Chi Chi first starts out in the series, she's a young girl, the only child of the Great Cow King. She's naive, and carefree -- capable of defending herself against monsters with the weapons in her helmet, but still easily frightened. She's also a romantic fool: when she finds out that she's being given away as a bride in omiai (arranged marriage), she's not outraged. Even though she has no idea who the future groom is, the idea that a boy may spend time with her causes a fit of blushing.

[Cultural note: This is a gag manga. Quick changes in attitudes, and sweeping over-reactions are common jokes.]

Time passes, and Gokuu is attending the Budoukai to face off against Piccolo. A mysterious young lady appears, and she heads immediately for Gokuu. In all these years, Chi Chi has been thinking about Gokuu, and the time they'll spend together. It's quite a shock to her when she discovers that Gokuu doesn't know who she is. In anger and embarrassment, she vows to fight him in the ring, partially in revenge for the loss of face, partially because she's a headstrong lady who's just been rebuffed. Either way, while Gokuu doesn't understand what's just happened, Chi Chi feels that she's been slighted.

[Cultural note: This is a common problem in Japan. Because the people are raised to "all be alike," Japanese are expected to think the same thoughts, and act in similar ways. Couples are not expected to talk to each other about different subjects, long into the night, because they're supposed to be able to tell what the other is thinking without putting it into words. Of course, in reality, neither knows what the other is actually thinking about, and it's a big shock at times.]

However, Chi Chi is still a hopeless romantic, and when she loses to Gokuu, she reveals her identity, and Gokuu agrees to marry her. End of fairytale.
At the same time, we have Buruma: a scheming little girl who has everything she could ask for except a boyfriend. She's intelligent, headstrong, and sure to get whatever she wants. She can take anything Oolong, Gokuu, or Yamcha can dish out. However, when she realizes that Yamcha is handsome, and likes her, she turns to mush. For about a week. Then, she and Yamcha have one of their many arguments and Yamcha leaves.

Buruma is fickle. She's always looking for some big, strong, handsome guy to latch onto. Usually, she's attracted to evil guys who want to kill her. Then, she comes across Vejita. Where Yamcha was wishy-washy, Vejita is VERY strong-willed. This is the type of man she wants.

[Cultural note: Many Japanese women have been raised to believe that their man is going to be in charge all the time, on certain matters. These women will always try to have their way, but will completely lose respect for a man that gives into them too often. This is the case with Buruma. She demands certain things of Yamcha, and he can't stand up to her effectively. Vejita, however, is not the type of man to be pushed around by anyone -- Buruma respects that.]

So, up to this point, we have two strong-willed women, one romantic and blinded by her own expectations; the other a scheming little bitch who doesn't really need anybody. What happens next? They both develop relationships with fighting men, and have one baby each. Chi Chi is the standard Japanese mother; married because of a decision made by her father; entered into the relationship with high expectations and confronted by reality; never allowed to stay at her husband's side.

[Cultural note: Most housewives in Tokyo rarely see their husbands all that much. Either the husband is a salaryman, working long hours at the office, followed by late-night drinking sessions, or the husband is sent to other cities on long business trips and rarely gets to set foot in his own house. For another example of this, see "Tsuyoshi, Behave Yourself" -- Tsuyoshi's father works in Osaka, the family lives in Tokyo.]

Even if she wanted to, Chi Chi couldn't be with Gokuu all the time. She's a normal human -- she can't fly like Gokuu does; in the first 10 seconds of a big fight, she'd be killed; and she can't provide a home for her son if she's constantly outside of it.

So, Chi Chi and Gokuu are always apart. What else can she do but heap her attention on Gohan? She and her son live by themselves in the countryside. She and Gokuu are both fighters living in an age of peace, so of course Chi Chi wants Gohan to grow up to be a normal person.

[Cultural note: This manga was created during the big development push in Japan, within 40 years of WW II.  See a connection here?]

Then we have Buruma. She lives in a big city, surrounded by friends and family. And a confusing timeline. In the first future, Gohan and Trunks are both fighters trying to survive against #17 and #18. Chi Chi, Gokuu, and Vejita all die. Of course, Buruma wants Trunks to be a fighter.

After the past has been changed, and the new timeline branch was created, Trunks grows up. Buruma is still the self-involved inventor that she always was. She likes to keep Trunks around because he is "her family," but she doesn't have to bother with him much. In fact, most of the time, Trunks is either being cared for by one of her creations, or is being trained by Vejita. Buruma has lots of other interests, Chi Chi only has Gohan.

One of Seawasp's big complaints is that Chi Chi is more concerned about Gohan's health, than the fact that Gokuu may be killed. Well, of course she is. She's married to the strongest man in the universe, in a universe where one can always get the Dragon Balls, or Senzu Seeds to make things all better. If Gokuu gets beaten up, fine. That's one of his favorite pastimes, and with one senzu, he's all healed. If he gets killed, the Dragon Balls can always bring him back. Besides, all the fighting happens far away, where Chi Chi can't see it. If something happens to Gohan, she'll notice it immediately. Her main concern is that Gohan doesn't become a delinquent (ie -- a fighter like her father.) She wants her boy to fit into normal society, something that she and Gokuu never could do.

But, when Gokuu dies for the last time and can't be brought back via the Dragon Balls, Chi Chi's world collapses, and she's completely devastated. Chi Chi always "knew," without having to put it in words, that Gokuu would be there for her when she needed him.

[Cultural note: This is normal behavior in all cultures. It's called "faith in the future."]

Buruma doesn't need Vejita, any more than she needs Yamcha or any of her other friends. If she loses one of them, it'll be a huge hole in her life, but it wouldn't be the END of her life. (With Gokuu gone, what do you think would happen to Chi Chi if Gohan died permanently?)

In review, Chi Chi is a standard Japanese housewife, separated from her husband for long stretches of time, and who dotes on her children. She's isolated from the rest of society, living in the country, occasionally visited by her father and Urunai Baba. Has enough money to get by, but no real surplus. Has no real skills to make a living if she needed to get a job. Dependent on her father and Gokuu.

Buruma is the more modern, in fact "more western" independent woman. She has a family, but she doesn't let that get in the way of what she wants to do. She lives in the city, comes from the richest family on the planet, is the heir to Capsule Corp., and is always surrounded by friends and devices. Is one of the greatest inventors on the planet, which is part of the source of CC's great wealth. Not dependent on anyone.

Which means, Chi Chi is a character easily recognized by most Japanese as the "average Japanese housewife." Buruma, on the other hand, is a fantasy character resembling more the western image of a footloose, irresponsible American woman. Both have their flaws. But, to hate Chi Chi blindly is to show a great lack of awareness of the Japanese culture. As punishment, I'd mete out a sentence of "one year of Tsuyoshi episodes without a break."
For those curious, "Tsuyoshi" at the end there is short for Tsuyoshi Shikkari Shinasai, a early to mid 90s anime sitcom that for awhile had grabbed the interest of the kinds of anime fans at the time that tended to be more predisposed toward cultural curiosities like Crayon Shin-Chan or Cat Ninden Teyandee, and the like. It was generally considered fairly insipid, hence the little dig at it there at the end. :)
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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by floofychan333 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:56 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
I know this was pages and pages back, and the poster in question just got banned: but I clouldn't let this one go without highlighting and comment. This quote represents a very, very special breed of ignorance and stupidity.

This person expressed a sincere belief that women were treated perfectly fine in not only the entirety of the 20th century... but also the 19th.

Women. In the 19th century. You know, when women not only didn't have the right to vote, but couldn't own property, couldn't generally pursue careers, were still mostly FORCED into marriage at a ridiculously, absurdly early age, were paid a pittance of the wages that made made for the exact same kinds of work in the cases where they WERE allowed to work, and generally lived like and were treated as downtrodden house servants and baby factories by much of the rest of society. At best maybe arm candy if they caught the eye of a wealthy noble or political figure.

Yes you know, that Shangri-La Utopian Golden Era for society's treatment of women. Before the Civil War and the invention of the fucking lightbulb or telephone and when black people were still legally considered property as well as three fifths of a human being. Back then, we TOTALLY had our collective heads on straight about how women should be treated.

I mean... look, you can call me the dreaded "SJW" tag all you want here; but if you're someone who fails to grasp the cold, hard, simple historical reality that women as a collective whole in just U.S. society alone (nevermind wherever else) were treated basically like complete utter garbage up until maybe, MAYBE 40/50-ish years ago AT BEST (and I'm being EXCEEDINGLY generous there)... you are simply not living in the same reality as everyone else. Particularly the women who had to live through those times (many of whom yes, are still very much alive and among us: that's how "not that long ago" this time in history was).

I don't in any way consider myself the prototypical internet-loathed breed of College Slacktivist SJW - because frankly those kids are complete and utter morons who have no understanding or self-awareness whatsoever of how much damage they're doing to their own pet causes just by being so over the top extremist and ridiculous - but make no mistake there IS a flipside to their brand of idiocy too. In the same way that current day SJW's will shriek and holler that EVERYTHING that ever was is racist and sexist, there are also just as many people out there on the far right who will claim that NOTHING is EVER racist or sexist, under ANY circumstances. That its all over, those are things of the distant, distant past that we've long since "beaten".

Both of those extremes are wrong and stupid (one is Boy Who Cried Wolf, the other is just stone cold head in the sand denial)... but the above quote is very firmly in the latter category of extreme denial (what? there's no sexism! that never happened! even in the 19th century women had it made!), and the reality is that as much as we all like to think that we've come a long way (and in many ways we certainly have) and that all of these ugly social attitudes were a very, very long time ago... they really, REALLY weren't. There are, again, people who LIVED THROUGH those darker times that are still among us. People who marched with MLK in the Civil Rights era, women who fought for domestic civil liberties as late as the 1970s, gay people who were there for the Stonewall riots and the first true beginnings of a proper LGBT rights movement. People from that time are still alive today. And not just the heroes from those periods, but also the villains. And the latter have had children of their own.

Even keeping this strictly to women here: did you know that marital rape was actually FULLY LEGAL in the United States until as pathetically recently as the EARLY GODDAMNED 90s? I've been alive since about a good solid decade before it became officially illegal for a husband to rape his wife in the United States. Pong, Pacman, Space Invaders, Star Wars, Nintendo/Mario, Sega/Sonic, Terminator, Robocop, Street Fighter, the Aliens/Predator series, Michael Jackson, Prince, Madonna, Nirvana, most of John Carpenter's classic oeuvre, Fist of the North Star, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Berserk, and yes even our beloved Dragon Ball, to name but a few, were ALL things that were around when it was still totally cool by law across numerous states in the U.S. for a husband to forcibly and without consent fuck his wife without any regard for her protests. In America. Let. That. Sink. In.

Ultimate point being: NONE OF THIS WAS THAT LONG AGO STILL. Grand scheme of things. This is all, historically, still technically in the VERY recent past. Which should tell you why it is that, suddenly, a LOT of old resentments and prejudices are bubbling back up these days in more recent years. For awhile there, in fits and spurts, yes these things kind of cooled down a little bit (though that also depends on who you ask: any black person that's had to deal with a police officer in this country would have damn good reason to beg to differ there). But this stuff NEVER actually fully went away anywhere, and it DAMN sure was never "beaten". Thinking that it was and that the heyday of bigotry and tribalistic demonization of "the other" was all in some far off distant, half-forgotten past (and yes, there's a LOT of kids today who fully believed that until stupidly recently).... that's a comforting, naive, feel-good fantasy and always has been. Nicest possible way of saying it.

Sorry. That above quote was just the most gobsmackingly stupid, ignorant thing I've seen on here in... maybe ever. Or close to it. And that's damn sure saying something.

I'll take this actually back around to Dragon Ball now.

This topic of DB and feminism is actually directly tied to something that I'd originally meant to post on here years, and years, and years, and years back (in my previous life as a solidly regular poster).

So we're taking Bulma's time machine back, back, baaaaaaack to the much, MUCH earlier years of U.S. DB fandom before FUNimation ever entered the picture, and when I was just a snot nosed little punk myself.

Saved for posterity, this here is probably still one of my favorite ever Usenet posts from back in the old-olden pre-dub days. Comes courtesy of none other than Curtis Hoffman, the guy who back then was responsible for the first complete set of Dragon Ball manga summaries. This was a post he made back in February of 1994, in a thread regarding Chi Chi's likability among us then-western readers/viewers, where he compares and contrasts Chi Chi and Bulma's characterizations and notes numerous real life Japanese cultural parallels between them.

Considering Chi Chi tends to be such a hotbed of discourse on feminism in DB, and I've so very rarely ever seen anyone make the (extremely logical) comparisons between her and Bulma since the CN years really first began, I figured this was a can worth finally re-opening.
Curtis Hoffman wrote:In a previous post, Seawasp identifies Chi Chi, from Dragon Ball Z, as one of his most hated characters, citing her selfishness, mindless doting over Gohan, and lack of concern towards her husband has the major strikes against her. A few other net people sided with him on this.

So...

When Chi Chi first starts out in the series, she's a young girl, the only child of the Great Cow King. She's naive, and carefree -- capable of defending herself against monsters with the weapons in her helmet, but still easily frightened. She's also a romantic fool: when she finds out that she's being given away as a bride in omiai (arranged marriage), she's not outraged. Even though she has no idea who the future groom is, the idea that a boy may spend time with her causes a fit of blushing.

[Cultural note: This is a gag manga. Quick changes in attitudes, and sweeping over-reactions are common jokes.]

Time passes, and Gokuu is attending the Budoukai to face off against Piccolo. A mysterious young lady appears, and she heads immediately for Gokuu. In all these years, Chi Chi has been thinking about Gokuu, and the time they'll spend together. It's quite a shock to her when she discovers that Gokuu doesn't know who she is. In anger and embarrassment, she vows to fight him in the ring, partially in revenge for the loss of face, partially because she's a headstrong lady who's just been rebuffed. Either way, while Gokuu doesn't understand what's just happened, Chi Chi feels that she's been slighted.

[Cultural note: This is a common problem in Japan. Because the people are raised to "all be alike," Japanese are expected to think the same thoughts, and act in similar ways. Couples are not expected to talk to each other about different subjects, long into the night, because they're supposed to be able to tell what the other is thinking without putting it into words. Of course, in reality, neither knows what the other is actually thinking about, and it's a big shock at times.]

However, Chi Chi is still a hopeless romantic, and when she loses to Gokuu, she reveals her identity, and Gokuu agrees to marry her. End of fairytale.
At the same time, we have Buruma: a scheming little girl who has everything she could ask for except a boyfriend. She's intelligent, headstrong, and sure to get whatever she wants. She can take anything Oolong, Gokuu, or Yamcha can dish out. However, when she realizes that Yamcha is handsome, and likes her, she turns to mush. For about a week. Then, she and Yamcha have one of their many arguments and Yamcha leaves.

Buruma is fickle. She's always looking for some big, strong, handsome guy to latch onto. Usually, she's attracted to evil guys who want to kill her. Then, she comes across Vejita. Where Yamcha was wishy-washy, Vejita is VERY strong-willed. This is the type of man she wants.

[Cultural note: Many Japanese women have been raised to believe that their man is going to be in charge all the time, on certain matters. These women will always try to have their way, but will completely lose respect for a man that gives into them too often. This is the case with Buruma. She demands certain things of Yamcha, and he can't stand up to her effectively. Vejita, however, is not the type of man to be pushed around by anyone -- Buruma respects that.]

So, up to this point, we have two strong-willed women, one romantic and blinded by her own expectations; the other a scheming little bitch who doesn't really need anybody. What happens next? They both develop relationships with fighting men, and have one baby each. Chi Chi is the standard Japanese mother; married because of a decision made by her father; entered into the relationship with high expectations and confronted by reality; never allowed to stay at her husband's side.

[Cultural note: Most housewives in Tokyo rarely see their husbands all that much. Either the husband is a salaryman, working long hours at the office, followed by late-night drinking sessions, or the husband is sent to other cities on long business trips and rarely gets to set foot in his own house. For another example of this, see "Tsuyoshi, Behave Yourself" -- Tsuyoshi's father works in Osaka, the family lives in Tokyo.]

Even if she wanted to, Chi Chi couldn't be with Gokuu all the time. She's a normal human -- she can't fly like Gokuu does; in the first 10 seconds of a big fight, she'd be killed; and she can't provide a home for her son if she's constantly outside of it.

So, Chi Chi and Gokuu are always apart. What else can she do but heap her attention on Gohan? She and her son live by themselves in the countryside. She and Gokuu are both fighters living in an age of peace, so of course Chi Chi wants Gohan to grow up to be a normal person.

[Cultural note: This manga was created during the big development push in Japan, within 40 years of WW II.  See a connection here?]

Then we have Buruma. She lives in a big city, surrounded by friends and family. And a confusing timeline. In the first future, Gohan and Trunks are both fighters trying to survive against #17 and #18. Chi Chi, Gokuu, and Vejita all die. Of course, Buruma wants Trunks to be a fighter.

After the past has been changed, and the new timeline branch was created, Trunks grows up. Buruma is still the self-involved inventor that she always was. She likes to keep Trunks around because he is "her family," but she doesn't have to bother with him much. In fact, most of the time, Trunks is either being cared for by one of her creations, or is being trained by Vejita. Buruma has lots of other interests, Chi Chi only has Gohan.

One of Seawasp's big complaints is that Chi Chi is more concerned about Gohan's health, than the fact that Gokuu may be killed. Well, of course she is. She's married to the strongest man in the universe, in a universe where one can always get the Dragon Balls, or Senzu Seeds to make things all better. If Gokuu gets beaten up, fine. That's one of his favorite pastimes, and with one senzu, he's all healed. If he gets killed, the Dragon Balls can always bring him back. Besides, all the fighting happens far away, where Chi Chi can't see it. If something happens to Gohan, she'll notice it immediately. Her main concern is that Gohan doesn't become a delinquent (ie -- a fighter like her father.) She wants her boy to fit into normal society, something that she and Gokuu never could do.

But, when Gokuu dies for the last time and can't be brought back via the Dragon Balls, Chi Chi's world collapses, and she's completely devastated. Chi Chi always "knew," without having to put it in words, that Gokuu would be there for her when she needed him.

[Cultural note: This is normal behavior in all cultures. It's called "faith in the future."]

Buruma doesn't need Vejita, any more than she needs Yamcha or any of her other friends. If she loses one of them, it'll be a huge hole in her life, but it wouldn't be the END of her life. (With Gokuu gone, what do you think would happen to Chi Chi if Gohan died permanently?)

In review, Chi Chi is a standard Japanese housewife, separated from her husband for long stretches of time, and who dotes on her children. She's isolated from the rest of society, living in the country, occasionally visited by her father and Urunai Baba. Has enough money to get by, but no real surplus. Has no real skills to make a living if she needed to get a job. Dependent on her father and Gokuu.

Buruma is the more modern, in fact "more western" independent woman. She has a family, but she doesn't let that get in the way of what she wants to do. She lives in the city, comes from the richest family on the planet, is the heir to Capsule Corp., and is always surrounded by friends and devices. Is one of the greatest inventors on the planet, which is part of the source of CC's great wealth. Not dependent on anyone.

Which means, Chi Chi is a character easily recognized by most Japanese as the "average Japanese housewife." Buruma, on the other hand, is a fantasy character resembling more the western image of a footloose, irresponsible American woman. Both have their flaws. But, to hate Chi Chi blindly is to show a great lack of awareness of the Japanese culture. As punishment, I'd mete out a sentence of "one year of Tsuyoshi episodes without a break."
For those curious, "Tsuyoshi" at the end there is short for Tsuyoshi Shikkari Shinasai, a early to mid 90s anime sitcom that for awhile had grabbed the interest of the kinds of anime fans at the time that tended to be more predisposed toward cultural curiosities like Crayon Shin-Chan or Cat Ninden Teyandee, and the like. It was generally considered fairly insipid, hence the little dig at it there at the end. :)
Wow. A reasonable (and extremely necessary) response with a massive amount of evidence backing it up as well as a significant contribution to the topic at hand (which by the way, has been totally lost by now). :clap: Bravo.
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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:58 am

I'm quite proud of myself, for I just finished my very first post of Kunzait, I always liked his posts but were too long. But this one was so awesome it just flew by!
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
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Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Puaru » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:23 pm

Dragon Ball is, from a modern day western point of view, very very far from being even remotely feminist. In fact its downright sexist, in all kinds of ways; The way the female characters are often sexually abused (and its played of as something not very serious), the way the number of significant male characters is vastly larger than the number of significant female characters, the may several female characters with fighting ability becomes stay at home moms as soon as they get married and then never fight again, ect.

From a modern feminist point of view, regardless of which branch of feminism one approaches from, Dragon Ball is basically a nightmare.

Personally though I dont care, I just wanna see cool characters fight cool fights.

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Clayton » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:04 pm

So, it seems that not only some users are above the law, but also mentally ill / weaker / less educated people are discriminated here. Extreme hate is accepted, peaceful responses aren't. This forum is a private property, so the owners can do what they want.

When Kojiro told me about his entire story, I decided to help him out. I myself consider some of his points awkward or even stupid to some extent (I have completely different views), but what I saw here was nefarious. There was one guy with mustache who allowed/advocated for treating people like shit, because he considered them subhumans. Is this the case here? It seems that somebody supports Aktion T4.
Kunzait_83 wrote:I'll happily make an exception and have no problems whatsoever with insulting you personally and directly (...)
...in the internet and later refuse to read your response. Author's bravery is truly impressing. To happily bash somebody with the most vulgar hate-filled and primitive language I've ever seen in my life for having wrong opinion. Just beautiful. There was another guy with bigger mustache who killed people for having improper views. Maybe he is the reference point here?
Kunzait_83 wrote:No, what it is that you're being here is at best a laughably ridiculous imbecile, and at worst a vile and disgusting piece of shit.
True defender of human dignity and oppressed minorities. Love-speech in its essential form.
Kunzait_83 wrote:I know this was pages and pages back, and the poster in question just got banned: but I clouldn't let this one go without highlighting and comment. This quote represents a very, very special breed of ignorance and stupidity.
[...but I will do what I like the most, which is bashing, humiliating and shitting on people I consider inferior just to not take any consequences, even in the form of reading the response.]
Kunzait_83 wrote:This person expressed a sincere belief that women were treated perfectly fine (...)
not like subhuman does not equate with perfectly fine
Kunzait_83 wrote:I'm quite proud of myself, for I just finished my very first post of Kunzait, I always liked his posts but were too long. But this one was so awesome it just flew by!
Another defender of human dignity. When Hitler said what he said and did what he did, many people cheered.

Kojiro was completely wrong here, but he admitted it himself. Criticizm was 100% fine and needed, but the tone/language used here wasn't necessary.
(I personally think that the author was motivated by hate and he intentionally looked for stupid posts written by Kojiro just for the sake of humiliating him)
Kunzait_83 wrote:Go away. Don't ever message me again, don't send posts directed at me on the forums again. Leave now and never, EVER talk to me again. Ever. I want NOTHING whatsoever to do with you.
Talking to somebody suggests the opposite. If somebody does not want to talk to somebody, they shouldn't comment/refer to their posts.
Kunzait_83 wrote:Message me again, and I'm reporting you directly to the mods where they'll hopefully ban THIS account as well. Because I don't believe for a second that I'm talking to a "friend" of Kojiro. I'm at least reasonably sure that this is indeed you that I'm talking to. Which only makes these messages all the more creepier and disturbing. By all means, continue to seek help. You're in dire need of it.
If somebody cares for forum rules so much, they should watch out what they write themselves. Kojiro had friends on this forum - he does not need to create fake accounts and lie.
People who read that should judge the attitude towards mentally ill / weaker / less educated people, and humans in general themselves. Some people do need help, but many of them are much more dangerous than Kojiro.

As Viktor Suvorov once said: The fact that Hitler was a cannibal does not mean that Stalin was vegetarian
Kojiro definitely acted like an asshole a couple of times, but it does not make other users saint.

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by AnimeMaakuo » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:16 pm

I've been following this thread for quite some time, and while I'm unsure whether or not Kunzait_83 is a moderator in disguise, something is seriously wrong with this picture. I'm beginning to not only question the integrity of this website, but more formally the moderators who run it. In a previous thread, VegettoEX reminded us that our conversation had "disrupted the good spirit of the Kanzenshuu community", yet Kunzait_83 is able to simply "not give a fuck", and say whatever the hell he wants without consequence. It's also evident that a moderator is deleting my messages when I quote VegettoEX about "re-reading the forum rules".. :wtf:

Should we be encouraging others to belittle other members of our community, or stepping up and doing what's right? The level of professionalism displayed here is downright poor. Shame on you.
Kunzait_83 wrote:Have I got all that right? Because I've heard this nonsensical garbage before, and at NO point has it EVER sounded like anything other than the demented, absurd ramblings of an utter moron. Which make no mistake, is exactly what you are here. Especially even more so seeing as how (according to your location there) you're from Poland. A Polish kid pulling out Nazi analogies over a fucking children's cartoon show. That's x2 idiot points for you.

And I couldn't give a fuck less that I'm breaking the site's "Keep it Shonen" rule here: in cases like yours, I'll happily make an exception and have no problems whatsoever with insulting you personally and directly for being dumb enough to buy into and help propagate backward-assed, knuckle-dragging nonsense like this. If one of the mods wants to give me a "strike" or whatever for it, then fine I'll take it, doesn't even phase me here.

I've no idea how old you are, but even if you're 12 or something, that's STILL no excuse for spewing this toxic sludge, and your parents should be slapped (at minimum) for not doing their jobs properly with you. You're not a "free thinker" (especially since much of this shit your saying is just ripped word for word out of any given post on 8chan), and you're damn sure not being "cool and rebellious": that badge of honor is strictly reserved for people who take a stand against societal norms for a cause that's actually worth something and beneficial to others who are being unjustly oppressed against and shit on by the majority.

What you're doing here is actually the direct OPPOSITE of cool and rebellious: you're twisting basic logic (and relatively recent history, not to mention common sense) around to fit a forced victimization narrative where its women and minority groups who have had all the power, and its the poor, poor white man who is now shamed and victimized: shame and victimization that comes in the form of *GASP* characters in popular media now having to share space with more women, brown skinned, and gay/trans people than before.

Oh boo hoo! Its just like the Nazis all over again! Just like Jews who had to get forcibly thrown at gunpoint into a gas chamber and be poisoned/asphyxiated to death, I have to look at... ick, girls (GIRLS!! I mean they have cooties you know!) with SSJ hair on Dragon Ball once a week! I'm such a victim!

No, what it is that you're being here is at best a laughably ridiculous imbecile, and at worst a vile and disgusting piece of shit.
I'm taking a screenshot of this response in case a moderator decides to "sweep it under the rug". While this post is not directed toward me, it does not change anything. There should be an explanation and a resolution. Unless I missed something and there's a double standard somewhere, I'll yield from any further questioning. This post is not intended to be sarcastic, snarky, rude, etc.
Last edited by AnimeMaakuo on Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by mute_proxy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:25 pm

What Kunzait_83 did was not to belittle but to call the bastard out. You don't let bad shit slide just because the rules are "to be nice"

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by AnimeMaakuo » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:38 pm

mute_proxy wrote:What Kunzait_83 did was not to belittle but to call the bastard out. You don't let bad shit slide just because the rules are "to be nice"
Insulting other members simply because you disagree is highly unprofessional. There have been moments where members have lost their temper, but this kind of language is completely unwarranted, and should never be tolerated here under any circumstance.
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Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by mute_proxy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:40 pm

AnimeMaakuo wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:What Kunzait_83 did was not to belittle but to call the bastard out. You don't let bad shit slide just because the rules are "to be nice"
Insulting other members simply because you disagree is highly unprofessional. There have been moments where members have lost their temper, but this kind of language is completely unwarranted, and should never be tolerated here under any circumstance.
Have you read the conversation or just the part you bolded out?

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by AnimeMaakuo » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:43 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:What Kunzait_83 did was not to belittle but to call the bastard out. You don't let bad shit slide just because the rules are "to be nice"
Insulting other members simply because you disagree is highly unprofessional. There have been moments where members have lost their temper, but this kind of language is completely unwarranted, and should never be tolerated here under any circumstance.
Have you read the conversation or just the part you bolded out?
Have you read the forum rules?
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Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:50 pm

Neither of you are mods, so perhaps you should just report whatever it is that bothers you and move on.
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Re: Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

Post by Clayton » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:51 pm

This is part of the message which was deleted:
Kojiro Sasaki wrote:The problem here is that I am uneducated, rather than I have bad intentions. The main mistake I made was posting my opinion about stuff I have no idea about. I didn't know about 85% of what you wrote. My knowledge was minimal and I got it mostly from studying the history of my region. According to my limited knowledge, the situation wasn't that bad, but with what you said, it's even worse than what the original author of the post I commented wrote.
My degree/main hobby is electronics, second hobby is collecting vinyl record, third hobby is history (WWII and Soviet bloc), with politics and social issues at the very end. I would love to develop myself in all of those domains, but I never had finances, proper environment nor health to do it. I suffer from bipolar disorder (ICD-10: F31.9: ultra-ultra-rapid cycling), which causes extreme mood swings during the day. Sometimes you are happy, sometimes heavily depressed, sometimes barely alive, sometimes angry as shit. Emotions are just going completely crazy, you cannot focus, you cannot study, you cannot sleep or you sleep all the time etc. I've spend most of my adult life in depression and sometimes I was barely living. You guys should be happy that you have good genes and that you were born in good environment, what allowed you to develop your skills as much as possible. Not everybody is as lucky as you.
Yes, I know that mentally ill and less educated people aren't welcome here and I accept it. Kojiro also accepts it - he will never visit the forum again.
Last edited by Clayton on Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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