Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

[DBZAOTA482]

We know that two female Saiyans have been introduced to Super and both are Super Saiyans... something fans have been clamouring about for years but their asses still aren't satisfied. They still go on tirades about Dragon Ball being sexist and shit like what the fuck do they want?

That's when I drew the conclusion that the fans if anything are the sexist ones...

I mean, they complain about the other females choosing to be housewives. Videl I can understand complaining about because she barely has character now but that has nothing to do with gender.... at least she's shown as a loving, understanding wife and mother. They're even complaining about #18 being a housewife even though she's still shown as much stronger than Krillin and one of the main fighters from Universe 7. They also forget Bulma is like the only human that has consistently remained relevance throughout the entire series even during 2/3 of Super. Don't even get me started on the Chi-Chi hating-ass shit.

Wanna complain about sexism in the series? Go after Toei. After all they created Maron, Pan (GT), and Yurin.

[MozillaVulpix]

Because representation isn't as simple as fulfilling a quota of one female character who is relevant in the story, and then everything else is okay.

Mind you, I don't think Dragon Ball has a big problem with women, but it's naive to think the series no longer has any problems or had any problems in the first place just because Caulifla exists.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

This is all leftist craziness. Going with that logic, any single minority could request 50% representation everywhere. They could accuse everything of discrimination. That makes completely no sense. I advocate for freedom. Author is a god. If he wants 9 male characters and 1 female character in his work - so be it. If he wants 1 male character and 9 female characters in his work - so be it. The art and freedom of expression shouldn't be affected by politics.

“Political correctness is an intellectual gulag” - Vladimir Bukovsky

[DBZAOTA482]

Because representation isn't as simple as fulfilling a quota of one female character who is relevant in the story, and then everything else is okay.

Mind you, I don't think Dragon Ball has a big problem with women, but it's naive to think the series no longer has any problems or had any problems in the first place just because Caulifla exists.

This is true, but most of the time I see these complaints they don't actually address problems or are part of the problem.

[MozillaVulpix]

Because representation isn't as simple as fulfilling a quota of one female character who is relevant in the story, and then everything else is okay.

Mind you, I don't think Dragon Ball has a big problem with women, but it's naive to think the series no longer has any problems or had any problems in the first place just because Caulifla exists.

This is true, but most of the time I see these complaints they don't actually address problems or are part of the problem.

Then that's the problem of people who don't do their research before complaining. Not 'feminism' itself.

[ABED]

The best thing artists can do if they want more diversity is to concentrate on writing compelling characters and stories. That will do more for their agenda than any soap box can.

[MaskedRider]

This thread is going places.

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't moments in the overall product (DB, DBZ, DBGT, DBS) that can be off putting toward a female reader (Heck, even Master Roshi wanting to see Bulma's panties for the dragon ball disturbs me) though I don't think the creator should feel forced into adding, removing, changing things for the sake of satisfying a "progressive" wish (I didn't know what other word to use). This is NOT to say that Caulifla and Kale were added in by force to make Dragon Ball more diverse, they are the characters they are with the personality that the creator deemed they should have and I would be upset if I saw people wanting them to be men vice versa.

As for ChiChi, Videl and Android 18, I still don't understand. I mean, I do but I see the change in their character as I see the change in the women in my life. I have grown closely to my mother, aunts and cousins and I hear stories about my mother and aunts that just are not like them (getting into fights for example) until they had children and they began having more of a "house wife" personality. I put that in quotes because I don't know how to describe it without listing a bunch of traits and even then I don't know if I would ground those traits to belonging to that life style. I played fight Dragon Ball Z and Naruto with my cousins (they were a bit older than me) and they started to settle down and I noticed that same change, that's not to say they transformed completely, I still see their up beat and kick ass traits still shine. I like to think that Videl, for example, is being more realistic now that she is married and have children but then again this is based off MY life experience and I know its not the same for everyone else.

Don't get me wrong though, it would be cool to see ChiChi and Videl to be fighting again but who knows what the story will unfold. Never heard Android 18 as being described as a house wife though, that's a new one. Is it because she is married and has a child?

[sintzu]

This is all leftist craziness. Going with that logic, any single minority could request 50% representation everywhere. They could accuse everything of discrimination.

I advocate for freedom, If he wants 9 male characters and 1 female character in his work - so be it. If he wants 1 male character and 9 female characters in his work - so be it. The art and freedom of expression shouldn't be affected by politics.

This is exactyl what's ruining Marvel comics, they've tried so hard to cator to these people that not only did they ruin their brand but they lost their main readers and have nothing to show for it cause the group they were targeting didn't give them any face, they complained then moved on to the next thing.

This is why I'll always prefer Japanese entertainment to American, any time someone on the internet cries "progression", everything is changed to satisfy one nobody while the people who actually support the product are left in the dust. In Japan that's thankfully not the case cause Toriyama, Oda, Togashi, etc. do what they want and people can take it or leave it.

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't moments in the overall product that can be off putting toward a female reader...

DB has and always will be written by a male writer for a male fan base, if females don't like it then they should find something else to read or watch. It's the same thing with Mature games, parents complain about them being too violent for their kids but never bring up the fact that they weren't made for kids in the first place.

[MaskedRider]

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't moments in the overall product that can be off putting toward a female reader...

DB has and always will be written by a male writer for a male fan base, if females don't like it then they should find something else to read or watch. It's the same thing with Mature games, parents complain about them being too violent for their kids but never bring up the fact that they weren't made for kids in the first place.

Oh I agree, I was just saying that I can understand why things can be off putting but just because they are doesn't mean it has to cater to people's wishes that they weren't. Even if I found Roshi's favor to be disturbing I understand that Roshi is perverted and that is his character, outside of that I do like him because he is a bad ass old man.

[Cure Dragon 255]

This is all leftist craziness. Going with that logic, any single minority could request 50% representation everywhere. They could accuse everything of discrimination.

I advocate for freedom, If he wants 9 male characters and 1 female character in his work - so be it. If he wants 1 male character and 9 female characters in his work - so be it. The art and freedom of expression shouldn't be affected by politics.

This is exactyl what's ruining Marvel comics, they've tried so hard to cator to these people that not only did they ruin their brand but they lost their main readers and have nothing to show for it cause the group they were targeting didn't give them any face, they complained then moved on to the next thing.

This is why I'll always prefer Japanese entertainment to American, any time someone on the internet cries "progression", everything is changed to satisfy one nobody while the people who actually support the product are left in the dust. In Japan that's thankfully not the case cause Toriyama, Oda, Togashi, etc. do what they want and people can take it or leave it.

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't moments in the overall product that can be off putting toward a female reader...

DB has and always will be written by a male writer for a male fan base, if females don't like it then they should find something else to read or watch. It's the same thing with Mature games, parents complain about them being too violent for their kids but never bring up the fact that they weren't made for kids in the first place.

Look man, I know I've been like a Tumblrina in the past and I'm trying to change but this is a HORRIBLE way of thinking. Sure I do like that the Shojo and Shonen labels allow for actual female aimed and male aimed audiences to find and read whatever they want but DUDE! I'm not going to use the S-e-x-i-s-m word since its a really tired and whiny argument but its a really horrible thing that you tell an entire gender to go find entertainment somewhere else. Its really awful.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

This is all leftist craziness. Going with that logic, any single minority could request 50% representation everywhere. They could accuse everything of discrimination. That makes completely no sense. I advocate for freedom. Author is a god. If he wants 9 male characters and 1 female character in his work - so be it. If he wants 1 male character and 9 female characters in his work - so be it. The art and freedom of expression shouldn't be affected by politics.

“Political correctness is an intellectual gulag” - Vladimir Bukovsky

Yeah, I mean the intentions are in the right place but the problem is shoving it down your throat, like if they were intigrated in the story naturally it's one thing but trying to shove it in your face is a turn off.

[Ajay]

Look man, I know I've been like a Tumblrina in the past and I'm trying to change but this is a HORRIBLE way of thinking. Sure I do like that the Shojo and Shonen labels allow for actual female aimed and male aimed audiences to find and read whatever they want but DUDE! I'm not going to use the S-e-x-i-s-m word since its a really tired and whiny argument but its a really horrible thing that you tell an entire gender to go find entertainment somewhere else. Its really awful.

There's nothing 'awful' or 'sexist' in what sintzu is saying. Media doesn't have to be inclusive; it doesn't have to appeal to absolutely everyone. Target audiences exist. That's fine. That's normal.

Creators are allowed to target certain audiences, and if people outside of that audience enjoy it too, that's great, but if they don't, then that's also fine, and they are free to find something more to their tastes.

I'm not sure why you're making wild accusations over a perfectly fine statement. If you pick up something that is definitively not aimed at your demographic and don't enjoy it, then any sort of outrage is unfounded.

Note: this is different from representation.

[sintzu]

It's a really horrible thing that you tell an entire gender to go find entertainment somewhere else. Its really awful.

This isn't aimed at any gender, it's aimed at any group that looks for something in something that has nothing to do with what they're looking for.

I used the video games as an example of this, if someone is looking for a kids game then they shouldn't be looking in the mature games' section.

Another example is movies, if someone is looking for action then they shouldn't expect to find it in a romance movie or a comedy.

I'm not saying people other than who's being targeted can't enjoy said thing or shouldn't take part in it, they just shouldn't get upset if it doesn't have what they were looking for in the first place.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Look man, I know I've been like a Tumblrina in the past and I'm trying to change but this is a HORRIBLE way of thinking. Sure I do like that the Shojo and Shonen labels allow for actual female aimed and male aimed audiences to find and read whatever they want but DUDE! I'm not going to use the S-e-x-i-s-m word since its a really tired and whiny argument but its a really horrible thing that you tell an entire gender to go find entertainment somewhere else. Its really awful.

There's nothing 'awful' or 'sexist' in what sintzu is saying. Media doesn't have to be inclusive; it doesn't have to appeal to absolutely everyone. Target audiences exist. That's fine. That's normal.

Creators are allowed to target certain audiences, and if people outside of that audience enjoy it too, that's great, but if they don't, then that's also fine, and they are free to find something more to their tastes.

I'm not sure why you're making wild accusations over a perfectly fine statement. If you pick up something that is definitively not aimed at your demographic and don't enjoy it, then any sort of outrage is unfounded.

Note: this is different from representation.

Ok, you are right. I exaggerated. I agree that media doesnt really have to appeal to everyone. I'm sorry I really overreacted.

[DrakenballP]

No woman is being belittled or anything else, there is no sexism going on and nobody should have a problem with it but this is 2017 and for the last 7+ years since everything has gone so PC and SJWs have hit the mainstream taking over, everything is seen in a negative light.

Master Roshi's finally cleaning his act up which is nice to see.

[Cipher]

We do just "hate on" Toei. Any criticism I've ever seen thrown at Dragon Ball's housewifery, at least on here, has been directed toward the Super-specific presentation of Videl, or moments such as Kuririn encouraging #18 to stay home and get dinner ready in the Resurrection "F" TV adaptation.

Kame-Sennin's gags aside, which are a part of regrettable but understandable cultural carelessness in a similar vein to Mr. Popo or the series' broad racial stereotypes, Toriyama tends to be quite good about treating his female characters like people, whether they're married or not. That extends through Dr. Slump and any of his short series and one shots not named "Lady Red."

[funrush]

All I can say about Dragon Ball and women is that whenever a female character is introduced, the show has a weird tendency of housewifing/benching them ASAP. I hope these U6 Saiyans finally break that, but seeing as they literally belong to another universe and aren't likely to be in the spotlight often, I doubt it.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

My basic idea is that while I feel Toriyama generally is more progressive than most in his mindset, you can kind of tell the guy has anxiety issues & doesn't get out that much. I don't think that's a stretch for me to say?

I think he does sort of sympathize with women's treatment in Japan, & that might be why Chi-Chi is the way she is - the reflection of the Japanese housewife, & the frustration of when that paradigm doesn't work. Bulma is really cool & smart, although Namek arc Bulma..ugh.

I'm gonna have to say, though, I'm gonna go out on a limb & say I think most big artists are liberals, Toriyama included, & they do generally reflect that in their work, even if they aren't far-left. I feel like, for an 80s comedy/action-adventure series for a magazine gendered for boys, it's pretty decent. The rest of what I have to say will be reflected in my response to sintzu I think. Hope it's all coherent & doesn't attack anyone.

This is all leftist craziness. Going with that logic, any single minority could request 50% representation everywhere. They could accuse everything of discrimination. I advocate for freedom, If he wants 9 male characters and 1 female character in his work - so be it. If he wants 1 male character and 9 female characters in his work - so be it. The art and freedom of expression shouldn't be affected by politics.

This is exactyl what's ruining Marvel comics, they've tried so hard to cator to these people that not only did they ruin their brand but they lost their main readers and have nothing to show for it cause the group they were targeting didn't give them any face, they complained then moved on to the next thing. This is why I'll always prefer Japanese entertainment to American, any time someone on the internet cries "progression", everything is changed to satisfy one nobody while the people who actually support the product are left in the dust. In Japan that's thankfully not the case cause Toriyama, Oda, Togashi, etc. do what they want and people can take it or leave it.

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't moments in the overall product that can be off putting toward a female reader...

DB has and always will be written by a male writer for a male fan base, if females don't like it then they should find something else to read or watch. It's the same thing with Mature games, parents complain about them being too violent for their kids but never bring up the fact that they weren't made for kids in the first place.

I'm not going to pretend there aren't liberal advocates who don't harshly chastise or mock people who aren't "on their level", however at the same time being immune or offended by progressives (the irony, lol) I feel is very silly & it's just appalling how many so-called "rational skeptical liberals" are pretty much right-wing &/or do nothing but criticize the left (ergo, people actually trying to make a change). "Ess Jay Dub Ull Yew!" I hear so often thrown at people just for actually daring to care about a problem with how we as a society treat each other. ("Concern trolling" being the equivalent term on the left; I highly dislike both terms because they sort of burn bridges) All SJW really means, in its widest scope, is someone cares deeply & passionately about something that isn't normalized enough yet.

Theodore Roosevelt: "The reactionary is progressive on everything that is already a dead issue." People who complain about people trying to make social progress are those who also think "everything's fine" - & at the end of the day, when progressives have finally won after complaining for decades, everyone just sort of pretends they agreed with them all along. ContraPoints touches on this in his videos on Baltimore tragedy & racism in general. Progress is hard & it's especially difficult for people to grapple with the fact that something be wrong with the way their society is functioning.

Anyway...using Japan as a role model for these things is...weird. They're generally not as good in workplace equality & women are pretty regularly groped on public transport; they work hard but they're not exactly a golden example of an ideal society or such.

In terms of gender delegation: while humans are sexually dimorphic & we tend to develop certain traits that fit in a duality of roles in reproduction - that's biologically about it. Rebecca Sugar (of Steven Universe, which is kind of appropriative but tries its best & is great) mentioned well that it's kind of preposterous how silly it is that producers think a show for boys need be so different from girls' shows. Now, before you say "Well, that's how their audience is socialized", okay, sure - but entertainment plays a part in how we treat each other, & creating characters whose relationship with gender is thought-provoking & subversive, does both entertain & help change. Entertainment has a big influence on public opinion; just google it. Anyway, far from being subversive, some of the bigger anime is pretty laughable in terms of how prevalent the eye-rolling & disbelief-breaking the fanservice is; it's clearly an example of how "things we dont really get upset about" actually do artistically bring down the work. Fanservice & anime boobery is pretty much seen as creepy by almost every non-anime fan I've spoken to on the subject; it's weird & usually doesn't add a whole lot to the story. It's largely there for obsessive loners (like, well, me, & that's something I've got to improve of myself).

Speaking of which, it's even more hilarious to criticize sci-fi for being progressive when that was the whole point of sci-fi in the first place. Sci-Fi has, largely, always been in favor of progressive ideas, there are historically tons of minority characters & interesting topics on societal issues (which is a great positive example of progressive ideas improving art), & I feel like the criticism of Marvel is basically about the movies, which is really just usual Hollywood business (sales of actual comics are still incredibly low IIRC). Kind of sad that the audience gets attacked for it, although I'm speaking from a very outsider/ casual cartoon/game/movie fan of those stories. I do often wish we had more critique of mediums that were by fans of the medium & hopefully also sympathetic to it & the audience, however. One can't seriously & genuinely call AnimeFeminist "some dumb SJWs hating on our medium & mocking nerds!", they clearly care about anime & critique it pretty thought-provokingly & make for interesting discussion, & it's kind of sad that they're mere Westerners with little-to-no influence on the industry.

[Cure Dragon 255]

That was an amazing post! Good job!

[huzaifa_ahmed]

That was an amazing post! Good job!

Thank you very much, Cure Dragon 255. I appreciate that very much.