So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

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So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by precita » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:49 pm

Dragonball has never had a recurring villain until now. When one villain died, they moved onto a new one. The old villains never came back for a major arc beyond scenes in Hell or running gags. Even Freeza's brief return in the early Cell arc was immediately cut short by Future Trunks, and that was pretty much the end of him for a long time outside filler until Super.

Now Freeza not only constantly returns, he's actually a major recurring villain. He's basically become what Joker is to Batman. No matter how many times Batman locks Joker up, or how many times he thinks Joker "died for good" he always returns to wreak havoc time and time again.

It seems to me the Dragonball franchise oddly can't move on from Freeza anymore. He's being cemented as THE villain of the entire franchise, not just the villain of one particular arc like he used to. Even Zamasu in Super met his permanent end and we'll never see him again, but Freeza is around for the long haul. How do you feel about this?

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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:16 pm

When DB was written it was written like other manga with a clear beginning and clear ending, now its become a franchise and like most franchises, it needs its "Villain", Star wars had Darth Vader, Batman has Joker so DB now has Freeza. I think we'll continue to get new villains but from now on Freeza will always or most of the time be there in some way, shape or form.

In RF's Super arc he kind of got his revenge against Goku by beating him and so did Vegeta against him so the purpose of bringing him back was met but I think they shouldn't have killed him off cause it would've made bringing him into the tournament less repetitive (bringing him back twice in less than 100 episodes).

For his 2nd return I think it's been great so far cause they're using him in a way they've never before. Now it's not about beating Goku, it's about taking advantage of the situation he's in regardless of who he needs to work with or against and if these last few episodes are anything to go by then Freeza's return is more than welcomed.

How do I feel about it ? I think both his returns could've been combined into one (the events of RF could've taken place after he was brought back after the tournament) and instead of getting him in RF we should've gotten a new villain but regardless of how we feel about him, he's here to stay and all we can do is hope they can keep things interesting with him.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:49 pm

At this point, I would say yes. Assuming Freeza doesn't turn good by the end of the current arc in Super, he can pretty much be considered Goku's archenemy at this point.

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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:18 am

When you word it like this, yes, I could you could say that Freeza has become the "Joker" of the Dragon Ball franchise in the fact that his popularity within the franchise has lead to him becoming a major character again despite seemingly fading form obscurity.

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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by Basaku » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:34 pm

Yup, ROF/Super have just elevated him to the archvillain position in the series although I don't think he's got quite the same potential to be brought back over and over again under different take/portrayal as the Joker.

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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by LuckyCat » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:04 pm

He's way more like Loki in the Thor movies. Freeza participates in the team's struggle, but always has his own interests at the frontline. I doubt there will be a heel-turn-face the same as Loki though.

As for the idea of cemented villain. Well maybe? Dragon Ball has more shades of gray than Batman, which means that the typical hero and villain role aren't as clear. Freeza seems like he'd be a lot more reliable as an ally for the heroes, for example, than The Joker.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by LightBing » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:54 pm

What was Vegeta if not a recurring villain until mid-Boo arc? Sure, he helped sometimes but he did way more harm than good. He killed innocent people in all the arcs.

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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by omaro34 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:00 pm

Let me preface my comments saying I'm not a big fan of Freeza. I don't hate him, nor do I like him a lot. I'm neutral about him.

Considering episode 94 which had Freeza have a lot of screentime getting a record in ratings surpassing the mighty One Piece is just the most recent shred of evidence which proves Freeza's iconic popularity; hence making him the "Joker" of Dragonball.

People can slice it anyway they want to, Freeza brings Toei/Toriyama ratings which brings revenue. Why stop something that makes more money than other ideas? Freeza isn't going anywhere, and people who have a problem with Freeza's constant returns can't do anything about it.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:22 pm

omaro34 wrote:Let me preface my comments saying I'm not a big fan of Freeza. I don't hate him, nor do I like him a lot. I'm neutral about him.

Considering episode 94 which had Freeza have a lot of screentime getting a record in ratings surpassing the mighty One Piece is just the most recent shred of evidence which proves Freeza's iconic popularity; hence making him the "Joker" of Dragonball.

People can slice it anyway they want to, Freeza brings Toei/Toriyama ratings which brings revenue. Why stop something that makes more money than other ideas? Freeza isn't going anywhere, and people who have a problem with Freeza's constant returns can't do anything about it.
The ratings don't disclose anything, Super remained in the same position and it wasn't even Super's highest rated episode, it was more One Piece did very badly than Super did exceptionally good.

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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:16 pm

LightBing wrote:What was Vegeta if not a recurring villain until mid-Boo arc? Sure, he helped sometimes but he did way more harm than good. He killed innocent people in all the arcs.
Vegeta is more akin to Spike from Buffy. He was a bad guy who gets redeemed. Freeza is becoming like The Joker. He's constantly trotted out no matter how many times he's defeated.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:30 pm

I seriously just read someone saying that Dragon Ball has more shades of grey than Batman.
...
...
Batman.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by LuckyCat » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:43 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:I seriously just read someone saying that Dragon Ball has more shades of grey than Batman.
...
...
Batman.
Context is important. Even in Batman, when it comes to Batman and The Joker, one's clearly a good guy and the other is a bad guy. I definitely wasn't trying to make an overarching critique on the Batman series. In the most recent arc of DBS, on the other hand, Goku is not clearly good and Freeza is showing some redeeming qualities.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:06 pm

LuckyCat wrote: In the most recent arc of DBS, on the other hand, Goku is not clearly good and Freeza is showing some redeeming qualities.
I know I'm going to regret asking this but... just what the hell are you talking about? What "redeeming" qualities? Freeza agreed to fight in a tournament for purely self-serving reasons and was positively crestfallen when he was told he couldn't murder the shit out of everyone there solely to amuse himself.

Goku meanwhile is basically Goku, for all that that entails. He's not behaving like Superman or what have you, because he NEVER has before, EVER. He's trying to stop his universe from being blinked out of existence. Fairly understandable, sympathetic goal.

I think some of you are trying WAY too hard to read into things that just aren't there. For reasons I couldn't even begin to guess at.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by LuckyCat » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:15 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:I know I'm going to regret asking this but... just what the hell are you talking about? What "redeeming" qualities? Freeza agreed to fight in a tournament for purely self-serving reasons and was positively crestfallen when he was told he couldn't murder the shit out of everyone there solely to amuse himself
No need to talk down to me. If you want to ask, just ask. To answer your question, the episode itself suggests (through Whis) that Freeza might be gathering information to help win the tournament for U7 (and thus help him win his selfish goal of resurrection). I think it's purposefully left ambiguous as to whether he really intended to betray U7 or not. But, even if you disagree with Freeza behaving more than usual, I think my point stands that Goku is being less good than usual in this arc.

[spoiler]Goku's already responsible for the deaths of people from U9 because he released Freeza. That's not even getting into him putting every universe in jeopardy of destruction.[/spoiler]
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:24 pm

LuckyCat wrote:No need to talk down to me. If you want to ask, just ask. To answer your question, the episode itself suggests (through Whis) that Freeza might be gathering information to help win the tournament for U7 (and thus help him win his selfish goal of resurrection). I think it's purposefully left ambiguous as to whether he really intended to betray U7 or not. But, even if you disagree with Freeza behaving more than usual, I think my point stands that Goku is being less good than usual in this arc.
I'm not trying to "talk down to you"... I just found the assertion in itself flabbergasting.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by LuckyCat » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:32 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:I'm not trying to "talk down to you"... I just found the assertion in itself flabbergasting.
Okay, there's just something implied in being afraid to ask; like you don't really think my answer is good before even reading it. Sorry if this wasn't your intention, and if it helps I generally enjoy reading your posts. Back to Goku, though, I agree he's never the typical heroic figure, but this time it's a matter of degree. Goku's gone beyond Majin Buu era levels of reckless fighting mania.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:45 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:I'm not trying to "talk down to you"... I just found the assertion in itself flabbergasting.
Okay, there's just something implied in being afraid to ask; like you don't really think my answer is good before even reading it. Sorry if this wasn't your intention, and if it helps I generally enjoy reading your posts. Back to Goku, though, I agree he's never the typical heroic figure, but this time it's a matter of degree. Goku's gone beyond Majin Buu era levels of reckless fighting mania.
No he hasn't...how so? He hasn't caused any of these issues knowingly. He's simply going with the flow.
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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:51 pm

LuckyCat wrote:Okay, there's just something implied in being afraid to ask; like you don't really think my answer is good before even reading it. Sorry if this wasn't your intention, and if it helps I generally enjoy reading your posts. Back to Goku, though, I agree he's never the typical heroic figure, but this time it's a matter of degree. Goku's gone beyond Majin Buu era levels of reckless fighting mania.
I honestly didn't notice that till now, and you're right, and I'm sorry about that plain and simple. Wasn't intentional.

Anyway, obviously one of the pitfalls of continuing the story beyond the Boo arc is to further track along with Goku's character progression. Cipher always refers to what Goku experiences throughout the bulk of the latter half of the series as ennui, and I think that that's as good a word choice describing it as any. When you surpass in strength and ability of some of the highest gods in your sphere of reality by the time you hit your 30s, where else is there to go?

I find it interesting though that you describe Goku as "not the typical heroic figure" when he's VERY MUCH a typical kind of heroic figure in many ways... just not in Western genres. And that's what fans need to stop doing at some point: constantly compare Goku to Western heroic archetypes that he has never had anything remotely to do with.

In either case, I don't think that DB's dipping into "gray" territory any more so now than it has in the past. Apart from the notion of Freeza having to fight alongside the main group (which is one of the more genuinely interesting touches Super has thrown at us thus far) this has been otherwise pretty standard, boilerplate Dragon Ball doing its usual thing.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by precita » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:08 pm

LightBing wrote:What was Vegeta if not a recurring villain until mid-Boo arc? Sure, he helped sometimes but he did way more harm than good. He killed innocent people in all the arcs.
Vegeta didn't kill anyone in the Cell arc.

He also didn't kill anyone himself in the Saiyan arc, even when he was a real villain. Likewise in the Buu saga he said he knew those people would get revived that he killed at the tournament.

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Re: So has Freeza become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise

Post by LightBing » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:53 pm

precita wrote:
LightBing wrote:What was Vegeta if not a recurring villain until mid-Boo arc? Sure, he helped sometimes but he did way more harm than good. He killed innocent people in all the arcs.
Vegeta didn't kill anyone in the Cell arc.

He also didn't kill anyone himself in the Saiyan arc, even when he was a real villain. Likewise in the Buu saga he said he knew those people would get revived that he killed at the tournament.
He killed the trucker in the Cell Arc.

In the Saiyan Arc he probably killed some of the aliens him and Nappa were consuming. We didn't see him kill anyone on screen, so I'm just filling in the gaps. I retract my statement.

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