LGBT in DragonBall

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:40 pm

Gerky wrote:You know what, you're absolutely right. It doesn't harm anyone if the characters are also all white in media. Things should stay exactly the same they have always been, shouldn't they? Why change anything? Isn't it fun being reductive?
Now you're just equating Dragon Ball to "all media" unnecessarily. Gay characters have no place in a series which doesn't focus on sexuality or romance. Their inclusion would feel unnecessary and forced, just like any kind of romance in this series feels.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Gerky » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:45 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Gerky wrote:You know what, you're absolutely right. It doesn't harm anyone if the characters are also all white in media. Things should stay exactly the same they have always been, shouldn't they? Why change anything? Isn't it fun being reductive?
Now you're just equating Dragon Ball to "all media" unnecessarily. Gay characters have no place in a series which doesn't focus on sexuality or romance. Their inclusion would feel unnecessary and forced, just like any kind of romance in this series feels.
Why do gay characters not deserve to exist as their on characters in Dragon Ball? Why do gay characters need romance to function? That is just bizarre.
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Gerky wrote:How did it any way affect things negatively for Sulu to be gay?
The original actor for Hikaru Sulu, George Takei, was not receptive to the change. In particular with the implication that the character may have been closeted in the original timeline as well, which is something that Takei himself struggled with. It's a fantastic example because the writers for the movie changed the character, who was straight, at an attempt to virtue signal. They didn't actually care about gay people or their opinions because when the original actor, a gay man, raised his concern they went along with it anyway.
A shame Takei wasn't receptive but that has nothing to with how it affected the quality of the movie or harm the character in anyway (if it did, which is clearly didn't).

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:53 pm

Gerky wrote:Why do gay characters need romance to function? That is just bizarre.
Because your sexual orientation specifically relates to your romantic and/or sexual interests. If it isn't going to be relevant, why even go out of your way to note a character swings one way or the other.
Gerky wrote:A shame Takei wasn't receptive but that has nothing to with how it affected the quality of the movie or harm the character in anyway (if it did, which is clearly didn't).
But I thought the whole point about including more representation was to help out gay people with their expereinces. How come Takei's opinion is easily dismissed when the change was supposed to be made in his honor? Why is one gay person's experience less important than others?

And it did affect his character, cause like I said it retroactively makes Sulu seem as if he was in the closet in all his other incarnations. Why is it that in the great progressive utopia of the future a person like him should be afraid of being gay or having a partner of the same sex? Why would it even need to be shown? It just clearly wasn't well thought out.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:54 pm

Gerky wrote:Why do gay characters not deserve to exist as their on characters in Dragon Ball? Why do gay characters need romance to function? That is just bizarre.
Because the main reason you'd know they're gay (or straight) is by establishing a romantic relationship with another character? You wouldn't know that any of our main characters were straight if Toriyama didn't force them into marriage to create new characters. I mean, sure it's possible for some characters to express sexual attraction for a certain gender like Roshi and Yamcha do, but it's a rare occurrence. A gay character who isn't in a relationship is pointless, because highlighting his sexuality would be stupid if it doesn't have a purpose (unless you want them to be a gag character like Blue and Otokosuki). And a gay character in a relationship would feel forced because romance in this series always feels forced.

Omitting gay characters in a series like this feels perfectly natural and justifiable.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:57 pm

Well one could argue that bringing it up but not emphasizing the romantic aspect of the character serves to normalize homosexuality. It's not a big deal for the other characters to be straight, and it's not a big deal if other characters are gay. It's not good or bad, it just is.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by LuckyCat » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:03 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:A fair counter point, but considering the fact how much stuff is horrendously bad at integrating its representation because it almost literally beats you over the head with it (Bioware is my go to example for this kind of stuff), I'll take the super subtle route over Mass Effect Andromeda dropping an entire NPCs back-story about how they're trans-gender because you said HI TO THEM!
Fair enough, and I do see how these decisions can backfire on studios which forces them to make the safest choice. Though, I think fiction can depict anyone, regardless of orientation, positively and in a low-key way. I think Oscar Martinez's character on The Office is a great example. He's an interesting character first, and a gay man simply as part of his bio.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:04 pm

ABED wrote:Well one could argue that bringing it up but not emphasizing the romantic aspect of the character serves to normalize homosexuality. It's not a big deal for the other characters to be straight, and it's not a big deal if other characters are gay. It's not good or bad, it just is.
What do you mean normalize homosexuality? Homosexuality is normal, there's no need to showcase something that is perfectly commonplace.

Sex is overly abundant nowadays in most media, but in well-written shows it usually has a purpose. Showcasing rape or incest is an attempt at showing that those things, things that are not accepted in our world, are common occurrences that nobody bats an eye at in the world that is being created.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:08 pm

ABED wrote:Well one could argue that bringing it up but not emphasizing the romantic aspect of the character serves to normalize homosexuality. It's not a big deal for the other characters to be straight, and it's not a big deal if other characters are gay. It's not good or bad, it just is.
Cause then you're just making it feel forced and artificial. The reason something like Nichelle Nichols as Lt. Uhura worked was because you didn't have to force anything. Simply by being on screen and doing her job was enough to show a better representation black people in media and to help normalize it for a large number of the population. And it also helped that Star Trek was already built upon the idea of portraying an idealistic future in which all races and creeds were shown working together. This was also seen in characters like Spock, who at the time was criticized as seeming too evil looking, and was continued with the addition of Commander Chekov in midst of the Cold War.

With sexuality, which isn't easily seen or heard like appearance or an accent, you're gonna need to force a scene that basically can be summed up as "Hey, did I mention I was gay?" And it'll especially feel out of place in Dragon Ball where sexuality and romance are the last thing on people's minds.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:11 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ABED wrote:Well one could argue that bringing it up but not emphasizing the romantic aspect of the character serves to normalize homosexuality. It's not a big deal for the other characters to be straight, and it's not a big deal if other characters are gay. It's not good or bad, it just is.
What do you mean normalize homosexuality? Homosexuality is normal, there's no need to showcase something that is perfectly commonplace.

Sex is overly abundant nowadays in most media, but in well-written shows it usually has a purpose. Showcasing rape or incest is an attempt at showing that those things, things that are not accepted in our world, are common occurrences that nobody bats an eye at in the world that is being created.
Yeah it is. Pardon me if that's the way you took my comment.

How do you show that homosexuality is normal? You show gay people as having the same issues as straight people. For instance, in an episode of The Flash, the police captain makes an offhand comment about his fiancé not wanting him to eat fast food. He refers to his fiancé using masculine pronouns, so clearly, he's gay. He simply says it like any straight character would if they made an innocuous throwaway comment about their fiancé.
Cause then you're just making it feel forced and artificial.
I'd say it's quite the opposite.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:16 pm

ABED wrote:I'd say it's quite the opposite.
Well you and most everyone else in this thread have failed to demonstrate that.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by pacz360 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:16 pm

precita wrote:They should just make Caulifa and Kale into lesbian lovers and be done with it. At least there it feels like it was intended from the start and wouldn't be some other established character randomly being gay for no reason.
Why would they need to do that exactly?

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:18 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
ABED wrote:I'd say it's quite the opposite.
Well you and most everyone else in this thread have failed to demonstrate that.
Did you not read my Flash example. It's an offhand comment.

Even when straight characters on DB are shown, their sexual orientation isn't mentioned. It's not "look at them being straight." It's "Bulma wants love, Roshi is perverted, Yamcha wants to get over his fear of girls".
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ShaneisMC » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:23 pm

I pretty much would have to agree on what I can only hope and imagine would be the logical consensus that ultimately it shouldn't really matter that much and context really plays a large role in that sort of thing from the get go. It's just a pretty irrelevant thing to bring up in Dragon Ball. If it does get brought up.... ok? No biggie. What I can't stand and what people should if anything get irritated about is just blatant pandering simply to push or shove an agenda on something or whoever just because they feel the need to do so because they feel oppressed or whatever. Actually having opposition to something and people simply "feeling" oppressed when none is there are two different things. The first is its own legitimate issue on the side of the oppressor assuming its wrongfully done. People being legitimately hateful isn't ok of course. The second is a different issue on the side of the "victim" because they're just using it as a shield to push whatever they want down whoever's throats even if those targeted are completely neutral or indifferent to whatever idea. Honestly in my opinion when it comes to stuff like this topic specifically I think it gets way too much pandering personally. I have no problem with gay people or any issue with them having equal rights and etc so forth. I'd say I'm on the more positive side of neutral. I'ts not my fight and i'm not involved but more power to whoever if they think they are being treated unfairly. However with that being said I don't think that all sorts of big changes or events or additions simply for the hell of it are necessary either. It's about people simply being equal, not making a group feel extra special. And in the case of the LGBT community I feel like there isn't necessarily a need to throw in too many gay characters to tv shows or anything because I believe that things should be about equality and represented at large in the way that is an accurate representation of the group or whatever. In the grand scheme of things its honestly a pretty small percentage of the population that is gay. Like only a couple percent at BEST. So they should receive their respectfully due amount of whatever based on that I believe.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:25 pm

ABED wrote:Did you not read my Flash example. It's an offhand comment.
I'm not familiar with the context of your example. But just from reading it it's not much different from my "Did I mention I was gay today" hypothetical. So no, I'm afraid you failed to convince me.
ABED wrote:Even when straight characters on DB are shown, their sexual orientation isn't mentioned. It's not "look at them being straight." It's "Bulma wants love, Roshi is perverted, Yamcha wants to get over his fear of girls".
Bulma wants a boyfriend. Roshi pervs on women exclusively. Yamcha wants to get over his fears because he wants to get a girlfriend.

It would've been better if you had used Goku, since he's a lot more asexual than heterosexual.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:28 pm

ABED wrote:How do you show that homosexuality is normal? You show gay people as having the same issues as straight people. For instance, in an episode of The Flash, the police captain makes an offhand comment about his fiancé not wanting him to eat fast food. He refers to his fiancé using masculine pronouns, so clearly, he's gay. He simply says it like any straight character would if they made an innocuous throwaway comment about their fiancé.
There's no need to showcase something that's already considered normal. This would be a different discussion if this were the 80s/90s and Dragon Ball was still airing, but we're in the late 2010s now. Seeing homosexual relationships is almost as common as seeing heterosexual relationships, so it'd be pointless to have gay characters in the story (just like it's pointless to specify if the characters are straight if it's not gonna lead anywhere, like making children). And again, the only reason we even know some characters are straight is due to gags or forced romance to produce offspring. A gay character can't do the latter and the former (considering the maturity of Toriyama's humor) would be a repeat of General Blue.

I certainly don't oppose adding a gay character "for the hell of it," but consider that it's just as pointless as specifying that Yamcha's dream was to get married only for him to end up single at the end of the series.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by pacz360 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:36 pm

Super_Divine_Genki wrote:I am not gay, and infinitely proud. 8)

And the author of a TV/animated series shouldn't have to go out of their way to establish a character as not gay either.

I'm a little amused that some think because a character like Zarbon hasn't been given an official label in DB, that it automatically puts him in the running for identifying with an "alternative lifestyle". Zarbon is clearly a bishi-type -- those aren't uncommon and more than likely identify with being asexual (in my experience of select media). People are wishing way too hard for and on edge about the prospect of being "represented" in DB... in DB! If you're a person that is hoping to be "represented accurately" in DB, I'm afraid that you're in the driest desert on that one. Don't hold these words against me though.

There's a thousand other series/films/video games out there that are being pumped out and doing the trendy/contemporary thing of packaging the "gay character" and inserting/pushing them into your entertainment. Be thankful for that, and enjoy it while it's around. But, please, don't expect DB to be "caught up with the times". Let DB be DB. Stop pretending that everything created now needs to advertise that the "gay movement" is an ever-present unstoppable force of nature in the bigger picture of human being. It's beyond silly, imo, not to mention that DB tackles much broader and relevant ideas than the day in the life of a sexual being.

I don't stand behind, or agree with the "alternative lifestyle", and the word "homophobic" offends me. I'm simply purist and traditional. However, I do sympathize with the gay person to an extent, but for more complicated reasons that would most likely go way over someone's head (not a Kanzenshuu discussion).

I think that there's been a grand total of TWO characters in the entire franchise that have been confirmed, and have displayed gay characteristics -- for comedic effect. Those aren't very good odds for you all. In Super, there was a cross-dressing couple briefly seen in U2 (who were "sent away" by the Pretty Cannon!! of all things), if you want to add them to the tally. If you have come to DB for "fishing" of that variety, I would suggest that you change your location to another place where you'll get the bites that you're anxiously awaiting. DB has done extremely well, and will continue to do extremely well, being straight and traditional. It's much much bigger about its adventuring than any single demographic to need to resort to contemporary pandering.

Zarbon is not gay (although his Kai English voice may lead someone to think otherwise, imo).

Tenshinhan is not gay. Chaozu is not gay. It's a bodyguard-type relationship that extends into big brother/little brother (and occasionally training dummy :p). Tenshinhan walks an enlightened path, and pities Chaozu having to endure being bullied out there in the world by himself. Folks in the West just don't seem to get that. I can't remember DB Movie 3 very well at the moment.

F.Trunks has never been gay. He endured a hellish world that prevented opportunity for a romantic relationship -- why did it take for Super giving him a female companion for others to go: "Well, there goes that idea. I so wanted him to be gay..."? It's amusing to me that someone would try to read "maybe he's gay!" into that.

Any deity, or non-mortal in the DB universe is not gay (Whis, Vados, Zamasu, GoD's, Kaioshin's,etc.). They display physical characteristics that identify them with gender, but their position/existence in the universe is far beyond being attached to any mortal sexuality. "I'm a life-form known as Whis".

Kale is not gay, or going to become gay - that's just overly wishful thinking. She appears to have experienced emotional trauma(s) to some degree. Frequent reminders about the protege/Sis' relationship that exists there between Caulifla/Kale should have long made this evident. It's another example of some waiting in earnest for those rains to come visit their barren wasteland of "representation".

Why did I need to answer for those... ? It's just a reminder to me that A LOT has changed in just the past 20 years with general mentality of the human being/consciousness.

And that's not mentioning the other bizarre relationship concoctions that I've somehow stumbled across online over the years. The author of a series shouldn't have to go out of their way to establish that a character is straight, it should be a given to treat that character as straight by default unless explicitly stated/shown otherwise.

It's been over five years since I've seen any of it, so I'll just skip over my criticisms of "representation" in that parody series "rewrite". If there is an opening to "explore" a not-sexually-identified character, some of the ego must have been satisfied during that production. :/

Anyway, let DB be DB. It doesn't need to advertise such small, inconsequential things as sexual identity during its silly, potentially-the-end-of-the-world/universe adventures.

... :)
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:39 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
ABED wrote:Did you not read my Flash example. It's an offhand comment.
I'm not familiar with the context of your example. But just from reading it it's not much different from my "Did I mention I was gay today" hypothetical. So no, I'm afraid you failed to convince me.
ABED wrote:Even when straight characters on DB are shown, their sexual orientation isn't mentioned. It's not "look at them being straight." It's "Bulma wants love, Roshi is perverted, Yamcha wants to get over his fear of girls".
Bulma wants a boyfriend. Roshi pervs on women exclusively. Yamcha wants to get over his fears because he wants to get a girlfriend.

It would've been better if you had used Goku, since he's a lot more asexual than heterosexual.
Yes, but her sexuality is seen as normal. It's not "look at the straight woman looking for a boyfriend".

Maybe I didn't explain it well, but no, it's NOT anything like "did i mention". I don't know if there is any way for you to not take it that way because for all I know, just by virtue of him being gay, you would think any comment about his love life is drawing attention to his homosexuality. He simply dropped an offhand comment that his boyfriend (and later fiancé) wants him to eat healthier. It's done in such a way that any police captain could've made that comment, this one just happens to be gay.
There's no need to showcase something that's already considered normal. This would be a different discussion if this were the 80s/90s and Dragon Ball was still airing, but we're in the late 2010s now. Seeing homosexual relationships is almost as common as seeing heterosexual relationships, so it'd be pointless to have gay characters in the story (just like it's pointless to specify if the characters are straight if it's not gonna lead anywhere, like making children). And again, the only reason we even know some characters are straight is due to gags or forced romance to produce offspring. A gay character can't do the latter and the former (considering the maturity of Toriyama's humor) would be a repeat of General Blue.

I certainly don't oppose adding a gay character "for the hell of it," but consider that it's just as pointless as specifying that Yamcha's dream was to get married only for him to end up single at the end of the series.
Sadly, I think we still have a ways to go for it to be considered normal. I understand your point, though the Yamcha example isn't great because that was never a huge deal for him. He wasn't driven like Kuririn to get married. Early on he wanted to get over his fear of girls, so him ending up alone didn't feel like a bait and switch or pointless. It just was how the hand he was dealt.

Those gags can just as easily be between gay people. It doesn't have to be a gag ABOUT their homosexuality. And while Gay people can't produce offspring like that, they can do surrogacy or adopt.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:41 pm

ABED wrote:Those gags can just as easily be between gay people. It doesn't have to be a gag ABOUT their homosexuality.
Gags about their homosexuality seem perfectly in-line with Toriyama's humor though, even if it's not supposed to be malicious.
ABED wrote:And while Gay people can't produce offspring like that, they can do surrogacy or adopt.
I'd normally say this isn't something that Dragon Ball would do, but the fact that #17 has two adopted children in Super proves me wrong, so I guess it is an option.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:05 pm

Doctor. wrote:I'd normally say this isn't something that Dragon Ball would do, but the fact that #17 has two adopted children in Super proves me wrong, so I guess it is an option.
He just doesn't care enough about them to save them from being wiped out ;)
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:15 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Stereotypes of gay men all being pedophiles and rapists is bullshit propaganda created to further marginalize and spread hatred, which continues to lead to outright murder to this very day.
How original! How virtuous! :roll: Why don't you actually make a case what you're claiming, instead of just saying things that feel right?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this propaganda hasn't been in place for decades, I'd be shocked if it existed in any notable fashion past the 1960's. Even if there is, everyone except the die-hard Evangelical Christians and the Islamists don't do anything other than laugh at it. It's a joke, and you're only giving it more credit (and misplaced credit, at that) than it deserves by bringing it up. You might as well cite the holocaust while you're at it.

The only places left in the world that are systematically discriminating and murdering homosexuals en mass right now are Islamic States. I guarantee they're being influenced more by the anti-gay, anti-west, and anti-jew propaganda that's constantly being pumped into their local news and children's programing than niche Japanese cartoons not even accessible to many of them. If you really have a problem with anti-LGBT discrimination, among other injustices, such as the rampant incest and child rape happening in these parts of the world, such as the practice in the Islamic world of families going out on the streets to gang-rape women, how about instead of having ridiculous conversations like this one, which don't have real implications regarding anything, we address actual problems, instead of getting upset at the fading ghosts of old sins.
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