LGBT in DragonBall

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Doctor.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:32 pm

Acknowledging LGBT prejudice in the Middle East would mean acknowledging that there are other societies out there more fucked up than ours and perhaps the issues we face over here are essentially nonproblems.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:34 pm

Doctor. wrote:Acknowledging LGBT prejudice in the Middle East would mean acknowledging that there are other societies out there more fucked up than ours and perhaps the issues we face over here are essentially nonproblems.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Daimo-Rukiri » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:37 pm

I personally think LGBT is morally wrong, but I have noticed some bits of it in early dragon ball.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ShaneisMC » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:42 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Stereotypes of gay men all being pedophiles and rapists is bullshit propaganda created to further marginalize and spread hatred, which continues to lead to outright murder to this very day.
How original! How virtuous! :roll: Why don't you actually make a case what you're claiming, instead of just saying things that feel right?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this propaganda hasn't been in place for decades, I'd be shocked if it existed in any notable fashion past the 1960's. Even if there is, everyone except the die-hard Evangelical Christians and the Islamists don't do anything other than laugh at it. It's a joke, and you're only giving it more credit (and misplaced credit, at that) than it deserves by bringing it up. You might as well cite the holocaust while you're at it.

The only places left in the world that are systematically discriminating and murdering homosexuals en mass right now are Islamic States. I guarantee they're being influenced more by the anti-gay, anti-west, and anti-jew propaganda that's constantly being pumped into their local news and children's programing than niche Japanese cartoons not even accessible to many of them. If you really have a problem with anti-LGBT discrimination, among other injustices, such as the rampant incest and child rape happening in these parts of the world, such as the practice in the Islamic world of families going out on the streets to gang-rape women, how about instead of having ridiculous conversations like this one, which don't have real implications regarding anything, we address actual problems, instead of getting upset at the fading ghosts of old sins.
I realize of course that this is a privately owned public forum and that those in charge have the authority to do pretty much whatever they please. However I must say if nothing else I commend you on the principle that you feel strongly or bravely enough to state your beliefs and point of view even when it is clearly going in opposition to effectively the head guy in charge of the whole website. Exercising the idea of freedom of speech without too much fear of persecution or potential termination and the like directed at someone in a major position of power here. Regardless of whether or not whomever agrees with whatever. Admirable.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by pacz360 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:47 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Stereotypes of gay men all being pedophiles and rapists is bullshit propaganda created to further marginalize and spread hatred, which continues to lead to outright murder to this very day.
How original! How virtuous! :roll: Why don't you actually make a case what you're claiming, instead of just saying things that feel right?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this propaganda hasn't been in place for decades, I'd be shocked if it existed in any notable fashion past the 1960's. Even if there is, everyone except the die-hard Evangelical Christians and the Islamists don't do anything other than laugh at it. It's a joke, and you're only giving it more credit (and misplaced credit, at that) than it deserves by bringing it up. You might as well cite the holocaust while you're at it.

The only places left in the world that are systematically discriminating and murdering homosexuals en mass right now are Islamic States. I guarantee they're being influenced more by the anti-gay, anti-west, and anti-jew propaganda that's constantly being pumped into their local news and children's programing than niche Japanese cartoons not even accessible to many of them. If you really have a problem with anti-LGBT discrimination, among other injustices, such as the rampant incest and child rape happening in these parts of the world, such as the practice in the Islamic world of families going out on the streets to gang-rape women, how about instead of having ridiculous conversations like this one, which don't have real implications regarding anything, we address actual problems, instead of getting upset at the fading ghosts of old sins.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:04 pm

Freedom of speech is the right (in some countries) to speak out against your government without fear of retaliation.

We are not your government and we don't have to put up with hatred.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:06 pm

This thread doesn't contain any kind of hate speech (disregarding how loose and arbitrary the definition of that word even is, anyway), though.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:11 pm

ShaneisMC wrote:I realize of course that this is a privately owned public forum and that those in charge have the authority to do pretty much whatever they please. However I must say if nothing else I commend you on the principle that you feel strongly or bravely enough to state your beliefs and point of view even when it is clearly going in opposition to effectively the head guy in charge of the whole website. Exercising the idea of freedom of speech without too much fear of persecution or potential termination and the like directed at someone in a major position of power here. Regardless of whether or not whomever agrees with whatever. Admirable.
Please don't turn this into a "standing up to the man" type of situation. That's not what it's about, and that's not how anyone should think of it.
VegettoEX wrote:Freedom of speech is the right (in some countries) to speak out against your government without fear of retaliation.

We are not your government and we don't have to put up with hatred.
It's easy to say that when you get to redefine hatred, isn't it? You've made your irrational bias quite clear.

And no, those aren't the limitations of the principle of freedom of speech, it's the concept that no one should be able to control what is and isn't acceptable thought. Quite a noble principle, one that not many truly believe in.
Last edited by Jinzoningen MULE on Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:12 pm

I don't see how Jinzoningen MULE pointing out a legitimate factor in play for this discussion is in anyway hated unless hatred is not aligning perfectly with the moderator's views.

By that logic, we all hate one another immensely over anything from the topic of "do you piss sitting up or down?" to actually important matters.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:14 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Freedom of speech is the right (in some countries) to speak out against your government without fear of retaliation.

We are not your government and we don't have to put up with hatred.
You seem to be confusing the general concept of freedom of speech with the first amendment of the United States Constitution.

The general idea of freedom of speech is to be able to express any kind of opinion without fear of censorship. The first amendment of the US Constitution is just one of the few legal documents in the world that protects citizens from being censored by their own government.

You have total right to censor whatever you want in your own privately owned forum.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ShaneisMC » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:14 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Freedom of speech is the right (in some countries) to speak out against your government without fear of retaliation.

We are not your government and we don't have to put up with hatred.
I simply meant the general idea of the freedom of speech without fear of retaliation. Personally I'm staying on the sidelines more or less as far as the actual discussion goes. I just meant it definitely takes some courage for anyone to stand up and speak their mind regardless of whatever it may be to someone like you who could so easily if you so wanted to permanently ban anyone you wanted at any time for any reason because ultimately this is your website. And conversely I would also commend you for not abusing the power that you possess even from your stand point if you disagree with whomever that you don't just automatically hit them with some kind of punishment. That of course takes maturity and wise decision making when trying to determine where a line is appropriate to be drawn.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Makaioshin » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:23 pm

Super_Divine_Genki wrote:I am gay, and infinitely proud. 8)
More power to you, brother. The rest of your post kind of goes on for too long and, to be honest, I didn't really read the entire thing. But I'm glad that you felt you could speak out as you did here. That is the wonderful thing about Kanzenshuu....

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Zephyr » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:32 pm

Doctor. wrote:Acknowledging LGBT prejudice in the Middle East would mean acknowledging that there are other societies out there more fucked up than ours and perhaps the issues we face over here are essentially nonproblems.
"As long as we're not dead last when it comes to respecting human dignity, then we're doing good enough!"

Not sure why any bar needs to be that low for anything.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:33 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Acknowledging LGBT prejudice in the Middle East would mean acknowledging that there are other societies out there more fucked up than ours and perhaps the issues we face over here are essentially nonproblems.
"As long as we're not dead last when it comes to respecting human dignity, then we're doing good enough!"

Not sure why any bar needs to be that low for anything.
We're literally first place.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:41 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Acknowledging LGBT prejudice in the Middle East would mean acknowledging that there are other societies out there more fucked up than ours and perhaps the issues we face over here are essentially nonproblems.
"As long as we're not dead last when it comes to respecting human dignity, then we're doing good enough!"

Not sure why any bar needs to be that low for anything.
We're literally first place.
Well when the US president makes statements like this, then wherever being first place or not is irrelevant.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by B » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:43 pm

Doctor. wrote:And again, the only reason we even know some characters are straight is due to gags or forced romance to produce offspring. A gay character can't do the latter and the former (considering the maturity of Toriyama's humor) would be a repeat of General Blue.
I don't understand this. A "this character is gay" gag would not have to be inherently offensive. We know a multitude of characters are straight because they either peep on the opposite sex or show vague interest sexually and make offhand comments. A gay character could do either. Do I trust Toriyama or Toei to handle such a thing with care? Probably not, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

I'm trying to think of a character where it wouldn't matter if they were gay, but everyone who didn't procreate a new character into the narrative either showed no interest in sexuality, couldn't(Piccolo), or was a heterosexual pervert. We unfortunately live in a world where Oolong the Demon kidnapping teenage girls for a harem is just "generically bad," but if he were doing it to young boys, it becomes a commentary on homosexuality that heterosexuality is exempt from, because it's viewed as "default." Characters who perform actions such as these are not put under any sort of microscope, and that sucks. The best argument towards there being no gay representation in DB is that Toriyama's attitude towards sex in general is massively skewed by the time and location he grew up in. He'd be bad at it.

I feel rambly and that I'm not expressing myself properly, so I'll tag this with that I do not agree with any sentiment that implies homosexuality is wrong, or that an LGBT character shouldn't exist in Dragon Ball for no other reason than because they are LGBT. That is nonsense to me, and straight characters like Oolong and Kame Sennin pulling wild sexual stunts are problematic enough.
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Super_Divine_Genki wrote:I am gay, and infinitely proud. 8)
More power to you, brother. The rest of your post kind of goes on for too long and, to be honest, I didn't really read the entire thing. But I'm glad that you felt you could speak out as you did here. That is the wonderful thing about Kanzenshuu....
I can't tell if this is a joke or not, but that poster said they weren't gay. The word "not" was bolded and underlined, and is missing from the quote.
Last edited by B on Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Zephyr » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:45 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Acknowledging LGBT prejudice in the Middle East would mean acknowledging that there are other societies out there more fucked up than ours and perhaps the issues we face over here are essentially nonproblems.
"As long as we're not dead last when it comes to respecting human dignity, then we're doing good enough!"

Not sure why any bar needs to be that low for anything.
We're literally first place.
You're missing the point, and speaking as if that means we've already crossed the finish line. Just because we're leading the pack doesn't mean we ourselves don't still have a great deal of ground to cover. We might be the best compared to the competition, but that doesn't mean we're as good as we need to be.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:45 pm

Kid Buu wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Zephyr wrote: "As long as we're not dead last when it comes to respecting human dignity, then we're doing good enough!"

Not sure why any bar needs to be that low for anything.
We're literally first place.
Well when the US president makes statements like this, then wherever being first place or not is irrelevant.
Literally the only rational decision Trump has made ever since he became president, but this is neither here nor there.
B wrote:Probably not, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
I didn't say it can't but I don't trust Dragon Ball to make politically correct gags with those types of characters. Any other series is fine with LGBT characters, but they don't fit Dragon Ball's narrative or Toriyama's writing style. They'd be pointless additions at best and a target for backlash by the sensitive types at worst.
Zephyr wrote:You're missing the point, and speaking as if that means we've already crossed the finish line.
I hesitate to say we have, because some social problems may be slipping my mind at the moment, but it's not like we're too far from it.
Last edited by Doctor. on Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:52 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Acknowledging LGBT prejudice in the Middle East would mean acknowledging that there are other societies out there more fucked up than ours and perhaps the issues we face over here are essentially nonproblems.
"As long as we're not dead last when it comes to respecting human dignity, then we're doing good enough!"

Not sure why any bar needs to be that low for anything.
We're literally first place.
And it's not even close. We literally have mandated equality in the west in every way that matters. You cannot refuse employees from a group you don't like. Hell, there are even quotas in place that have corporations hire diverse peoples whether they're qualified or not, and quite often, they are not. You cannot take it much further unless you want to start mandating which opinions are correct, which needless to say, is exactly where all tyranny begins. It also happens to be the exact purpose for which the label "hate speech" was created for.
Kid Buu wrote:Well when the US president makes statements like this, then wherever being first place or not is irrelevant.
40% of them are suicidal. The military needs people who are reliable and efficient, they don't even let people with clinical depression in. It's not like he's sending them to death camps, he's not even saying they can't be public servants, but the military is a dangerous place to have people who are overwhelmingly statistically unstable.
Zephyr wrote:You're missing the point, and speaking as if that means we've already crossed the finish line. Just because we're leading the pack doesn't mean we ourselves don't still have a great deal of ground to cover. We might be the best compared to the competition, but that doesn't mean we're as good as we need to be.
We have crossed the finish line. Name me an injustice that's within the government's purview to fix, and exists for the purpose of unfair discrimination, not practical safeguards.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:10 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: 40% of them are suicidal. The military needs people who are reliable and efficient, they don't even let people with clinical depression in. It's not like he's sending them to death camps, he's not even saying they can't be public servants, but the military is a dangerous place to have people who are overwhelmingly statistically unstable.
Oh, yeah. Let's just punish an entire group because less than half of them might not be able to pass a psychological exam. That sounds totally rational and logical. I mean, you know, we could actually screen individuals on an individual basis and determine their fitness to serve, but actually making sure soldiers are fit for their jobs seems like too much work. Better be sure by banning them all. Oh, but wait. People outside of the trans community suffer from mental illness too? Shouldn't we just ban everybody to be on the safe side?
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