LGBT in DragonBall

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:49 am

Gerky wrote:Plenty of people want that kind of representation. Look at something Orange is the New Black, it has that kind of representation. No one would mind if Kylo Ren was not straight (no indication he is either) and Snoke was originally going to be a woman (apparently the reason will be revealed later and was a consequence of casting serkis), and it was getting praised for it's diversity.

Anyone who is resistant to being able to have a minority be, to stick the example, a drug addict or something is being silly and sometimes fall into the trap of 'all fictional characters are role models' (often well meaning allies or people writing a deeply personal story) as long as it can be delivered on similar terms. Why should it be something they can't overcome if the only difference is skin colour or gender. Every fictional character should be able to be praised to the hills or torn down completely for their actions and their character, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't have a more varied inclusive cast to do it with, you know? I'm a snarky prick who can be a downright arsehole to people. I'm gay, not flawless.
You misunderstood my comment about Star Wars, it's not the about Kylo Ren being gay in this scenario, it's him being gay AND comitting atrocities that would make people throw a fit because Disney isn't portraying a gay guy in the best light. The same way I'm certain Snoke would get received if he was kept a woman and a planet murdering Sith psychopath.

A lot of the time when this topic comes up, I don't see an actual desire for fairness, I see them just want the glorification and not actual people, worts and all. I agree that every character should be able to be whatever a writer wants them to be, but it's not something I think a lot of other people on this subject actually want. They want their group, whatever that may be, to get put on pedestal's while us straight white guys are the evil meanies who are wife beaters, alcoholics or drug addicts.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:50 am

I dislike when things are noticeably put into shows to serve things like certain political inclinations (no matter what kind of political inclinations they are) instead of feeling 100% natural for the story and characters
Politics is part of life. The trick is to make it part of the story instead of stopping the story in its tracks.

I agree with Ekrolo, which is why I think it's a danger to frame the issue in terms of "representation". Just let them be characters who are as mean, kind, petty, heroic, silly, serious, charismatic, and loathsome as any straight, white, male character.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by rereboy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:53 am

ABED wrote:
I dislike when things are noticeably put into shows to serve things like certain political inclinations (no matter what kind of political inclinations they are) instead of feeling 100% natural for the story and characters
Politics is part of life. The trick is to make it part of the story instead of stopping the story in its tracks.

I agree with Ekrolo, which is why I think it's a danger to frame the issue in terms of "representation". Just let them be characters.
I did say "noticeably".
Last edited by rereboy on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:56 am

rereboy wrote:
ABED wrote:
I dislike when things are noticeably put into shows to serve things like certain political inclinations (no matter what kind of political inclinations they are) instead of feeling 100% natural for the story and characters
Politics is part of life. The trick is to make it part of the story instead of stopping the story in its tracks.

I agree with Ekrolo, which is why I think it's a danger to frame the issue in terms of "representation". Just let them be characters.
I did say "noticeably".
It's very noticeable that Buffy is all about female empowerment. In broad strokes, I think we're on the same page.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by rereboy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:57 am

ABED wrote:
rereboy wrote:
ABED wrote:Politics is part of life. The trick is to make it part of the story instead of stopping the story in its tracks.

I agree with Ekrolo, which is why I think it's a danger to frame the issue in terms of "representation". Just let them be characters.
I did say "noticeably".
It's very noticeable that Buffy is all about female empowerment.
As a premise, yes, not as something that isn't natural for the characters and plot. You just misunderstood my point. You literally stated the same thing I had said. If it's effectively "part of the story" as you said, then it's not something that reads/is noticeable as something that was added as part of a political inclination and doesn't feel natural to the story and characters.
Last edited by rereboy on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Kanassa » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:02 am

ekrolo2 wrote: while us straight white guys are the evil meanies who are wife beaters, alcoholics or drug addicts.
You mean you`re not? But I`m usually such a good judge of character :D
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:05 am

Kanassa wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: while us straight white guys are the evil meanies who are wife beaters, alcoholics or drug addicts.
You mean you`re not? But I`m usually such a good judge of character :D
I'll have you know, my wife Stacy loves me drop kicking her down a flight of stairs after I've had a few shots and LSD!
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:08 am

If it's effectively "part of the story" as you said, then it it's not something that reads/is noticeable as something that was added as part of a political inclination and doesn't feel natural to the story and characters.
But it is noticeable even in a well written story. Politics and social issues are just as much a part of people's lives as sexuality. The problem is when the story doesn't integrate those issues into the story. For instance, the end of The Jungle by Upton Sinclair changes writing styles from the rest of the novel. It essentially becomes a pamphlet for socialism.

I wouldn't mind if Whis was in fact stated to be gay. I think he's interesting.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Gerky » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:09 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Gerky wrote:Plenty of people want that kind of representation. Look at something Orange is the New Black, it has that kind of representation. No one would mind if Kylo Ren was not straight (no indication he is either) and Snoke was originally going to be a woman (apparently the reason will be revealed later and was a consequence of casting serkis), and it was getting praised for it's diversity.

Anyone who is resistant to being able to have a minority be, to stick the example, a drug addict or something is being silly and sometimes fall into the trap of 'all fictional characters are role models' (often well meaning allies or people writing a deeply personal story) as long as it can be delivered on similar terms. Why should it be something they can't overcome if the only difference is skin colour or gender. Every fictional character should be able to be praised to the hills or torn down completely for their actions and their character, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't have a more varied inclusive cast to do it with, you know? I'm a snarky prick who can be a downright arsehole to people. I'm gay, not flawless.
You misunderstood my comment about Star Wars, it's not the about Kylo Ren being gay in this scenario, it's him being gay AND comitting atrocities that would make people throw a fit because Disney isn't portraying a gay guy in the best light. The same way I'm certain Snoke would get received if he was kept a woman and a planet murdering Sith psychopath.

A lot of the time when this topic comes up, I don't see an actual desire for fairness, I see them just want the glorification and not actual people, worts and all. I agree that every character should be able to be whatever a writer wants them to be, but it's not something I think a lot of other people on this subject actually want. They want their group, whatever that may be, to get put on pedestal's while us straight white guys are the evil meanies who are wife beaters, alcoholics or drug addicts.
Kylo may be a bad example here, there's no way this trilogy doesn't end with him redeemed. ;) I was more just pointing that out for myself, as I'd never even considered Kylo's sexuality before. Sorry, probably didn't need to mention it.

I remember about ten years ago, in one month Marvel scheduled three X-books (one or two were delayed I believe) that killed Northstar off in three different dimensions in the same month. One of the deaths was averagely written, with him being a speedster and all, and another made sense with him being a speedster that could fly he was trying to evacuate too many people, and yeah, because prominent gay characters were so few and far between in mainstream comics there was an uproar, and sadly a lot of it was feeling very vulnerable at the sheer (accidental) amount at once. Sometimes people people get so few breadcrumbs that, however well meaning, they become far to protective of the characters that they admire for whatever reason. As diversity becomes more and more common it happens less and less, but some people are still fiercely protective because they have long, long memories.
rereboy wrote:
ABED wrote:
rereboy wrote:
I did say "noticeably".
It's very noticeable that Buffy is all about female empowerment.
As a premise, yes, not as something that isn't natural for the characters and plot. You just misunderstood my point. You literally stated the same thing I had said. If it's effectively "part of the story" as you said, then it's not something that reads/is noticeable as something that was added as part of a political inclination and doesn't feel natural to the story and characters.
Considering it was developed at first solely as female empowerment to flip the script on the helpless blonde who gets slaughtered first in slasher flick, I would argue Buffy is inherently political. Whedon has been very upfront about Buffy's reasons for being all along.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:12 am

ABED wrote:
I wouldn't mind if Whis was in fact stated to be gay. I think he's interesting.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Whis. There was a scene where he saw Beerus naked and blushed, turning his face away. I think that's pretty indicative but I doubt they'll ever outright confirm it.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by rereboy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:21 am

ABED wrote:
If it's effectively "part of the story" as you said, then it it's not something that reads/is noticeable as something that was added as part of a political inclination and doesn't feel natural to the story and characters.
But it is noticeable even in a well written story. Politics and social issues are just as much a part of people's lives as sexuality. The problem is when the story doesn't integrate those issues into the story. For instance, the end of The Jungle by Upton Sinclair changes writing styles from the rest of the novel. It essentially becomes a pamphlet for socialism.

I wouldn't mind if Whis was in fact stated to be gay. I think he's interesting.
You continue to misunderstand my point because you get hung up on the words used instead of focusing on the point. You aren't saying anything different from what I said.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:22 am

For years fans have said Tenshinhan and Chaozu are gay. I'm only against it because when many fans say it, there's a little too much "tee hee hee" when they do.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Akyon » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:23 am

Yamcha asexual?
Krillin closeted?

You guys aren't paying attention at all if you believe either of them have questionable sexualities.
Both their dreams were to marry women. Yamcha got flustered by women in Dragonball because of his attraction. He was with sex mad Bulma for 15 odd years for chrissakes, and is described by Toriyama as a player. He's definitely not asexual.
Krillin was a little pervert as a kid, constantly oogling the likes of Bulma and Launch and complains at Goku for getting Chi Chi since she's so damn cute.

Alternative character interpretation is always weird when you have to go against established canon. Tien? Sure. No evidence he's not asexual. Yamcha? You kidding me?
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:24 am

rereboy wrote:
ABED wrote:
If it's effectively "part of the story" as you said, then it it's not something that reads/is noticeable as something that was added as part of a political inclination and doesn't feel natural to the story and characters.
But it is noticeable even in a well written story. Politics and social issues are just as much a part of people's lives as sexuality. The problem is when the story doesn't integrate those issues into the story. For instance, the end of The Jungle by Upton Sinclair changes writing styles from the rest of the novel. It essentially becomes a pamphlet for socialism.

I wouldn't mind if Whis was in fact stated to be gay. I think he's interesting.
You continue to misunderstand my point because you get hung up on the words used instead of focusing on the point. You aren't saying anything different from what I said.
You make the point with words. And I've already stated previously that I think we're on the same page.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by rereboy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:27 am

Gerky wrote:
Considering it was developed at first solely as female empowerment to flip the script on the helpless blonde who gets slaughtered first in slasher flick, I would argue Buffy is inherently political. Whedon has been very upfront about Buffy's reasons for being all along.
As I've said, it's on its premise, not exactly on his characters or story.

For example, if a movie is mostly about discrimination and gay relationships as its premise, then it only feels natural for its characters and plot/story to follow that.

The issue is only when it doesn't feel natural for its characters and story/plot. And I've said, I'm just skeptical about these issues and its inclusions, especially in works like Dragon Ball, where relationships or sex were never important.
ABED wrote:
rereboy wrote:
ABED wrote:But it is noticeable even in a well written story. Politics and social issues are just as much a part of people's lives as sexuality. The problem is when the story doesn't integrate those issues into the story. For instance, the end of The Jungle by Upton Sinclair changes writing styles from the rest of the novel. It essentially becomes a pamphlet for socialism.

I wouldn't mind if Whis was in fact stated to be gay. I think he's interesting.
You continue to misunderstand my point because you get hung up on the words used instead of focusing on the point. You aren't saying anything different from what I said.
You make the point with words. And I've already stated previously that I think we're on the same page.
We don't have the power to make everyone understand exactly our point, no matter what words we choose to use. There will always people misunderstanding slightly or vastly what we mean due to disagreeing with the terms we used or some other reason. And I don't see the point of your replies if you are saying the same as me and agree that you are saying the same as me.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:34 am

We don't have the power to make everyone understand exactly our point, no matter what words we choose to use. There will always people misunderstanding slightly or vastly what we mean due to agreeing with the terms we used or some reason. And I don't see the point of your replies if you are saying the same as me and agree that you are saying the same as me.
I was focused on the point. I wasn't splitting hairs by getting hung up on semantics. There was a misunderstanding, plain and simple. This comment makes it seem like I'm arguing for the sake of it. I'm not. I thought you and I weren't in agreement because you keep disagreeing with me even though I've written several times that I think we are in agreement.

Back to the actual topic, I can understand why a gay kid or black kid, etc. would like to see someone like themselves on screen. For instance, I definitely understand the value of a young gay kid would like to see a lesbian relationship on screen or a black kid would want to see a doctor played by a black person. It sends a positive message of "If I can do this, so can you." But telling a story comes first. If writers are going to create those characters, they need to do it well. While I enjoy Supergirl, the Maggie/Alex relationship isn't working for me. The writing is clichéd and Maggie Sawyer feels very flat as a character. Christ, the writers pulled the whole "Valentine's Day is a corporate holiday, but I don't actually believe that. I just had a bad experience on a previous Valentine's Day." Patting yourself on the back for being inclusive is obnoxious, especially when the story suffers.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by rereboy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:45 am

ABED wrote:
We don't have the power to make everyone understand exactly our point, no matter what words we choose to use. There will always people misunderstanding slightly or vastly what we mean due to agreeing with the terms we used or some reason. And I don't see the point of your replies if you are saying the same as me and agree that you are saying the same as me.
I was focused on the point. I wasn't splitting hairs by getting hung up on semantics. There was a misunderstanding, plain and simple. This comment makes it seem like I'm arguing for the sake of it. I'm not. I thought you and I weren't in agreement because you keep disagreeing with me even though I've written several times that I think we are in agreement.
Were you...? Your first response where you stated "politics is part of life" already looked like you weren't exactly agreeing with my point about things being put into series to serve noticeable political inclinations instead of feeling natural for the characters and story, and when I simply stressed in response that I said "noticeable", you used Buffy to exemplify how a work can be obviously political. To me, this doesn't sound like I'm the one disagreeing with you, but rather the opposite, especially since my responses were simply about stressing what I had said. But, whatever, it's clear that this discussion is pointless and off-topic.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:03 am

I'm ok with Toriyama's stereotypical point of view. His best humor comes from stereotypes.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Spencer_23 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:14 am

I think Kale is and I pretend Trunks & Goten will be lol so there's that

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:20 am

Li'l Lemmy wrote:Are there other ways in which you think the series lacks diversity which you would change Or is a shonen series not meant to address these concerns in any sort of visible, meaningful way ?
I don't know about every Shonen but the ones I watch including DB never bothered with it so there's no reason to start this late in the game.

Keep in mind that diversity isn't just about catering to one group, once you start with one then everyone will expect to be represented and the authors will eventually lose sight of what they were originally doing.

Another thing is that not everything has to represent everyone or do the same thing, there are a lot of anime out there that do that so someone like Toriyama shouldn't have to stop what he's doing to do something completely different just to say he did it. Authors should stick to what they do best and if what people want isn't part of it then they should simply find it elsewhere.
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