LGBT in DragonBall

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TheatreStyleKai
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by TheatreStyleKai » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:21 pm

What, is General Blue not gay enough now?

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Akyon » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:26 pm

TheatreStyleKai wrote:What, is General Blue not gay enough now?
I think General Blue is considered an offensive stereotype in this case. Still a great character. In the manga.

Blame the anime for also making him a pedo for this poor reputation.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:30 pm

TheatreStyleKai wrote:What, is General Blue not gay enough now?
Once you open that door nothing is enough so it's best left closed.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by precita » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:31 pm

They should just make Caulifa and Kale into lesbian lovers and be done with it. At least there it feels like it was intended from the start and wouldn't be some other established character randomly being gay for no reason.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:35 pm

Doctor. wrote:There are gay characters in Dragon Ball in the form of General Blue and Otokosuki. Are they positive stereotypes? No
Hang on there. Are they negative stereotypes, or are they just funny? In modern times, a ton of gay people are intentionally, obnoxiously flamboyant. Why is making fun of that a bad thing? Because it hurts some hypothetical person's feelings? If it does, the gays responsible for the stereotype should stop acting like adult children, because the very day that people stop acting that way, it won't be funny anymore. Humor only works because it's based in reality.

TL;DR: General Blue and Otokosuki are funny.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:25 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Doctor. wrote:There are gay characters in Dragon Ball in the form of General Blue and Otokosuki. Are they positive stereotypes? No
Hang on there. Are they negative stereotypes, or are they just funny? In modern times, a ton of gay people are intentionally, obnoxiously flamboyant. Why is making fun of that a bad thing? Because it hurts some hypothetical person's feelings? If it does, the gays responsible for the stereotype should stop acting like adult children, because the very day that people stop acting that way, it won't be funny anymore. Humor only works because it's based in reality.

TL;DR: General Blue and Otokosuki are funny.
Well, I didn't say they were negative stereotypes either, I just said they weren't positive ones, Otokosuki in particular isn't portrayed in a good light. I don't particularly care though, like you said, they're funny.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by jcogginsa » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:39 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: There kind of is I've noticed that irks me. A white guy can get shown as a drug addict, alcoholic, abusive father or husband but I guarantee you, if anyone else was portrayed like this, accusations would be flying all over the place even if the creative people behind it aren't racist or misogynistic or homophobic in the least!
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Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Doctor. wrote:There are gay characters in Dragon Ball in the form of General Blue and Otokosuki. Are they positive stereotypes? No
Hang on there. Are they negative stereotypes, or are they just funny? In modern times, a ton of gay people are intentionally, obnoxiously flamboyant. Why is making fun of that a bad thing? Because it hurts some hypothetical person's feelings? If it does, the gays responsible for the stereotype should stop acting like adult children, because the very day that people stop acting that way, it won't be funny anymore. Humor only works because it's based in reality.

TL;DR: General Blue and Otokosuki are funny.
No, General Blue is a negative Stereotype, 100 percent and with zero ambiguity. Your atitude shows exactly why representation is necesary. NO, not all gay people are hyper flamboyant stereotypes. Most Gay people are not Hyper Flamboyant stereotypes. Same goes double for Gay people being peadophiles. STEREOTYPES DO NOT REFLECT REALITY!

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:42 pm

jcogginsa wrote:No, General Blue is a negative Stereotype, 100 percent and with zero ambiguity. Your atitude shows exactly why representation is necesary. NO, not all gay people are hyper flamboyant stereotypes. Most Gay people are not Hyper Flamboyant stereotypes. Same goes double for Gay people being peadophiles. STEREOTYPES DO NOT REFLECT REALITY!
General Blue isn't a pedophile, what?

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:48 pm

jcogginsa wrote:STEREOTYPES DO NOT REFLECT REALITY!
You figure they come out of thin air, then? Stereotypes don't function in absence of truth, otherwise, they cease to be useful or funny or whatever, and they're abandoned. You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to reflect everyone (a claim that you pulled out of thin air, by the way). You can't just say things because they make you feel like you're perpetuating some kind of social justice. Emotions aren't facts, capital letters aren't facts, representations aren't facts, and you're a social communist meme.
Doctor. wrote:General Blue isn't a pedophile, what?
Typical switcheroo from someone who doesn't know how to argue genuinely. He changed the flamboyance to peadophilia, and thought no one would notice.
Last edited by Jinzoningen MULE on Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:00 pm

Straight, white male who also loves the fictional girls speaking:

Art should be made because staff want to make it. I don't think Toriyama particularly cares about representation because the diversity that western fans speak of doesn't exist in his world. It's one thing to actively go after a minority, but I don't quite get that from Toriyama. He's off in his own sandbox.

I hesitate to call Kale gay. She exists mainly to fulfill fetishes. I have an easier time prescribing that description to New Game characters. Maybe we will see actual expansion on that front but likely not.

I also think it is wrong to speak of Japan as if it isn't diverse. There is a form of diversity within the nation, even if it doesn't match the ironically narrow definition of some westerner.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Akyon » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:28 pm

Doctor. wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:No, General Blue is a negative Stereotype, 100 percent and with zero ambiguity. Your atitude shows exactly why representation is necesary. NO, not all gay people are hyper flamboyant stereotypes. Most Gay people are not Hyper Flamboyant stereotypes. Same goes double for Gay people being peadophiles. STEREOTYPES DO NOT REFLECT REALITY!
General Blue isn't a pedophile, what?
The anime. The Japanese version has him fall in love with a young boy from Penguin Village(I cannot remember who as I'm not a reader of Dr. Slump).
The English dub I believe alters this to thinking the boy is a long lost relative of Blue hence the sparkly imagery in that scene.

That's the negative stereotype. The gay=pedo one. Manga Blue however I don't recall having such traits.

Although the flamboyant stereotype definitely exists in real life too so to say that doesn't reflect reality isn't entirely accurate.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by jcogginsa » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:32 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:STEREOTYPES DO NOT REFLECT REALITY!
You figure they come out of thin air, then? Stereotypes don't function in absence of truth, otherwise, they cease to be useful or funny or whatever, and they're abandoned. You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to reflect everyone (a claim that you pulled out of thin air, by the way). You can't just say things because they make you feel like you're perpetuating some kind of social justice. Emotions aren't facts, capital letters aren't facts, representations aren't facts, and you're a social communist meme.
Doctor. wrote:General Blue isn't a pedophile, what?
Typical switcheroo from someone who doesn't know how to argue genuinely. He changed the flamboyance to peadophilia, and thought no one would notice.
1. Stereotypes are not a form of Comedy. Stereotypes are used to con people who don't know any better into believing that all members of a group behave the same way. THEY ABSOLUTELY FUNCTION OUTSIDE OF THE TRUTH. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DESIGNED TO DO
2. Blue is depicted as a Paedophile in the Anime version.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:41 pm

jcogginsa wrote:1. Stereotypes are not a form of Comedy. Stereotypes are used to con people who don't know any better into believing that all members of a group behave the same way. THEY ABSOLUTELY FUNCTION OUTSIDE OF THE TRUTH. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DESIGNED TO DO
I don't believe you know what a stereotype is, comrade. Stereotypes aren't necessarily comedy, but they are foundational to it. You're using a blatantly nefariously narrow definition, and you aren't throwing anyone off your trail with it.
jcogginsa wrote:Blue is depicted as a Paedophile in the Anime version.
So? No one was talking about that, you're the one who not-so subtly substituted that in to shift the conversation in an irrelevant direction. Get that chip off your shoulder and learn how to have a discussion, dude.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ChibiGoku » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:50 pm

Gay man here, thought I'd chime in on this discussion.

While I don't have any particular issue with Blue, I do however have issue with what Toei Animation did to his character later on (the gay = pedophile stereotype is NOT something I want to see, given it gives children the wrong idea what a gay man is and it's incredibly offensive and demeaning). But I also need to remember, Dragon Ball has some problematic material, but I also understand that it's a product of it's time.

However, having said that, I do think there's opportunities for both jokey, stereotypical characters, as well as proper representation of said characters. Sometimes writers and directors can come up with a good balance between the two, and I honestly enjoy them (Leeron from Gurren Lagann is a personal favorite of mine, even though he's eccentric, he's also able to pull his weight, cares about his team members, and can be super serious when he needs to be).

Now, the question, does Dragon Ball actually need LGBT representation? I think because of the fact the show is targeted towards kids, I feel it would be of great help. However, at the same time, I can't force or ask the writers to insert something that they may not be sure how to handle correctly. I don't want them to put it in there for the sake of "representing diversity", but because they want to. Another thing that annoys me a bit, is when the creators have absolute best intentions, they get thrown under a bus because they messed up representation of a minority (be it sexual, gender identity, or person of color/religion). Criticism is good, but not to the point that you make the person not want to work in the industry again.

Regardless, more representation is a good thing. But it needs to come to the writers naturally and not be forced. I do feel for something like Dragon Ball, which is a children's program, it would be the best to introduce said characters to show it's normal, but I don't want it to be in your face, and clearly only meant to appease the crowd (and even then, doesn't always work). However, saying that, there is the whole thing going on with Kale and Caulifa and I'm curious where that'll go.

A similar relationship, which was Fang and Vanille in Final Fantasy XIII. Originally Fang was a guy, but they changed the character to female, and kept the relationship intact. Their relationship reminds me a little bit with Caulifa and Kale a bit, so I kinda feel there is something there. But we'll see.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Gerky » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:14 pm

Akyon wrote:Yamcha asexual?
Krillin closeted??
Yamcha would be asexual, heteroromantic. Asexuality is a biological disinterest in sex, you can absolutely fall in love someone, appreciate how they look, enjoy cuddling, romance. I'm in a relationship with an asexual man (10 years this year). He can still want women, but a disinterest in more than romance or enjoying each others companies would explain what happened between him and Bulma, since not for a second do I think he would have cheated. Rather her inability to understand why he wouldn't want to be physical with her, or his inability to talk about it with her or understand himself, and overreacted (as Bulma is wont to do).

Kuririn talked a big game, had one bimbo after he died and then married. He had one daughter, and the relationship seems like a brilliant friendship, because of Toriyama's self-admitted romance writing flaws. It's a classic case of someone unable to come out because of pressures from their upbringing or society. ;) (Geez, I don't think he's actually closeted, I was just giving an example of how it could easily happen).
sintzu wrote:
Li'l Lemmy wrote:Are there other ways in which you think the series lacks diversity which you would change Or is a shonen series not meant to address these concerns in any sort of visible, meaningful way ?
I don't know about every Shonen but the ones I watch including DB never bothered with it so there's no reason to start this late in the game.
It has it's problems, but I think Bleach is fairly diverse for Shonen from the early/mid 00's. I've, um, fallen really behind on the most popular shonen. Fairy Tale?
ChibiGoku wrote:Gay man here, thought I'd chime in on this discussion.

While I don't have any particular issue with Blue, I do however have issue with what Toei Animation did to his character later on (the gay = pedophile stereotype is NOT something I want to see, given it gives children the wrong idea what a gay man is and it's incredibly offensive and demeaning). But I also need to remember, Dragon Ball has some problematic material, but I also understand that it's a product of it's time.

However, having said that, I do think there's opportunities for both jokey, stereotypical characters, as well as proper representation of said characters. Sometimes writers and directors can come up with a good balance between the two, and I honestly enjoy them (Leeron from Gurren Lagann is a personal favorite of mine, even though he's eccentric, he's also able to pull his weight, cares about his team members, and can be super serious when he needs to be).
Pretty much. I'm of the opinion that if you want to include jokes and stereotypes as characters (unless literally everyone and everything is a joke and a stereotype), go for it, but be prepared to have proper representation to balance that out and if you really only feature minorities to be jokes, don't be surprised if there's a backlash.
Now, the question, does Dragon Ball actually need LGBT representation? I think because of the fact the show is targeted towards kids, I feel it would be of great help. However, at the same time, I can't force or ask the writers to insert something that they may not be sure how to handle correctly. I don't want them to put it in there for the sake of "representing diversity", but because they want to. Another thing that annoys me a bit, is when the creators have absolute best intentions, they get thrown under a bus because they messed up representation of a minority (be it sexual, gender identity, or person of color/religion). Criticism is good, but not to the point that you make the person not want to work in the industry again.

Regardless, more representation is a good thing. But it needs to come to the writers naturally and not be forced. I do feel for something like Dragon Ball, which is a children's program, it would be the best to introduce said characters to show it's normal, but I don't want it to be in your face, and clearly only meant to appease the crowd (and even then, doesn't always work). However, saying that, there is the whole thing going on with Kale and Caulifa and I'm curious where that'll go.

A similar relationship, which was Fang and Vanille in Final Fantasy XIII. Originally Fang was a guy, but they changed the character to female, and kept the relationship intact. Their relationship reminds me a little bit with Caulifa and Kale a bit, so I kinda feel there is something there. But we'll see.
That's something people are missing here. Representation can be great for educating children and helping children with feeling okay with themselves. You make an excellent point about people with the best intentions, but something people with the best intentions do have to keep in mind is if one of the minorities you tried to represent brings to you an issue with the portrayal (respectfully! Not aggressively or insultingly!) then listen to what they have to say. Do not give the old, defensive, " I'm sorry you feel that way" deflection. Listen, learn, it's a good thing.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:19 pm

Children don't care about sexuality because that's not something they'll experience until they hit puberty.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ChibiGoku » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:21 pm

Gerky wrote: That's something people are missing here. Representation can be great for educating children and helping children with feeling okay with themselves. You make an excellent point about people with the best intentions, but something people with the best intentions do have to keep in mind is if one of the minorities you tried to represent brings to you an issue with the portrayal (respectfully! Not aggressively or insultingly!) then listen to what they have to say. Do not give the old, defensive, " I'm sorry you feel that way" deflection. Listen, learn, it's a good thing.
Absolutely! I agree with this.

EDIT:
Doctor. wrote:Children don't care about sexuality because that's not something they'll experience until they hit puberty.
This isn't entirely 100% true. Sexual Identity, while it's strongly tied to sexual attraction, there's also more the emotional side of things. Kids, around 8, may start questioning this sort of thing, especially if they have emotional attachments towards their male friends that goes a bit further than just simply being a friend. This is something I experienced, but I was always told it was wrong for guys to be that way, and later on in my life, especially going through puberty, I struggled accepting being gay. So I feel at an early age, especially around 8 or so, it's important to show that this is normal and there's nothing wrong with it.

And even if the kids develop into a straight relationship, it can also help form their thoughts on LGBT community, potentially in a more positive manner. So it's still a good thing o represent.
Last edited by ChibiGoku on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:24 pm

Doctor. wrote:Children don't care about sexuality because that's not something they'll experience until they hit puberty.
As a general rule, this is true. The only time children tend to experience sexual identity pre-puberty is as a result of abuse, even in cases where the child doesn't remember said abuse.

However, keep in mind the Dragon Ball isn't just aimed at young kids, but teenage boys as well. Granted, healthy teenage boys don't actually care about any of this cancer, so your general point stands.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:30 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Get that chip off your shoulder and learn how to have a discussion, dude.
This is not the way to have a discussion.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:31 pm

ChibiGoku wrote:This isn't entirely 100% true. Sexual Identity, while it's strongly tied to sexual attraction, there's also more the emotional side of things. Kids, around 8, may start questioning this sort of thing, especially if they have emotional attachments towards their male friends that goes a bit further than just simply being a friend. This is something I experienced, but I was always told it was wrong for guys to be that way, and later on in my life, especially going through puberty, I struggled accepting being gay. So I feel at an early age, especially around 8 or so, it's important to show that this is normal and there's nothing wrong with it.

And even if the kids develop into a straight relationship, it can also help form their thoughts on LGBT community, potentially in a more positive manner. So it's still a good thing o represent.
Sexual education is a prominent thing in most schools nowadays. Kids shouldn't be getting any kind of moral message from a cartoon that encourages the use of violence to deal with your problems.

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