Do you consider the Boo arc better than Super?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
omaro34
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1785
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:27 pm
Location: Western Canada

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by omaro34 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:06 pm

I love Dragonball Z, but I didn't like the Buu arc. Every other non Saiyan Z fighter became useless combat wise, Fat Buu as a villain didn't really do it for me, and Kid Buu was just a brainless animal with no rational behind his actions and just liked to destroy. Such a boring, unoriginal villain. Vegeta's character development was the best part of the Buu arc, and when he sacrificed himself it amounted to nothing. Gohan didn't learn from the mistake he made against Cell where he dragged on the fight too long and caused things to backfire against him. He did the same thing against Super Buu, which was so disappointing to see. I wish Gohan was more like Future Trunks where you just get shit done and not drag things on, making you more vulnerable the longer you take.

The Black arc is better than the Buu arc. A much better developed villain where the villain's reasoning were clearly explained in great detail, and it shows the progression Zamasu made from a soon to be Supreme Kai to a monster.

However, imo the rest of the arcs in Z are far above anything Super has offered thus far. That includes this current cluster fuck of a tournament which was organized poorly.

All of the other arcs in Z are connected to the past somehow. The Saiyan saga occured as a result of Goku's heritage coming back to haunt him. The Freeza saga occurred because of the deaths that took place in the Saiyan arc, and the Cell arc took place because Goku didn't fully defeat the RRA. The Buu arc is just sort of there and placed. I appreciated the other arcs for this, and it showed a progression in the story that Toriyama was trying to show the audience. Not many appreciate this and just enjoy the action, but I do.
"Kami is the Morgan Freeman of Dragonball Z"

Check out my Piccolo page: https://www.facebook.com/PiccoloTheSuperNamek/?ref=hl

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17024
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:13 pm

MR.Mark wrote:No I'm missing the point you are trying to make.

First it's code of honor, then it's wanting a good fight, then it's Gohan can't defeat Kid Buu so it all makes sense!

Now it's Vegeta and Goku doing team work, which doesn't sound like much of a good fight.

Maybe you're confusing there pride when they INITIALLY went into the fight, however then Vegeta admitted he was no match, Goku was number 1, and then SSJ3 failed. There tunes quickly changed and it was very obviously about saving the universe at that point.

Annnnd this goes back to bringing in Gohan to save the universe would of made way more sense, but nope, Vegeta suddenly cared about the earth taking care of themselves so Goku could get the final blow.
There's no "then". It's simultaneous. It's a code of honor AND a good fight. A code of honor is part of them having a good fight.

"Doesn't sound like much of a good fight..." To whom? You?

You are confusing pride and insecurity. Vegeta let go of his insecurities, but he still has pride and still likes to fight on his own terms.

More sense if their ultimate goal was to save the universe, but it's not. It's primarily about the fight. And sure, he wants Goku to get the final blow instead of someone else.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Jinzoningen MULE
I Live Here
Posts: 4405
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:33 pm
Location: Salt Mines

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:16 pm

From a narrative standpoint, I'd say it's worse than the first 3 arcs in the anime, but better than the FT Arc and ToP recruitment. At the time, it was easily the weakest portion of Toriyama's career up to that point.

As for the other attributes in the manga version: The art always hovered between some of the best panels we've ever seen and panels that look like they're drawn by a child. The pace of the fights are wildly unpredictable (in a bad way).

In the anime: Contrary to everything else, this is where the TV show was at the top of its game! Unfortunately, the Boo Arc has never been given a decent, official restoration, so we can't watch in all its glory, meaning there are significant tinting issues from time to time (or you're watching Funimation's version, in which case, you get consistent, if not always correct colors, and a whole plethora of other problems), but it's so good that's barely even an issue. The additions to the story are almost always fun, and are well within the tone of the arc, whatever it may be in any given moment. The animation... well, it has the cut that everyone knows Tadayoshi Yamamuro from:

It's consistently good. In fact, I struggle to think of any episode during that period that wasn't good looking. The pacing was slow, but never uneventful or forgetful like we see in Super. Overall, it's just really good.

So it depends. If we're talking anime, I'd say the Boo Arc wins, without contest. If we're talking manga, it's a little tougher to judge. The Boo Arc had many failings, but a lot of the problems are different ones than Super has. I have to say the Boo Arc's still better because it was still using the formula's that made Dragon Ball great to begin with, but depending on my mood, I could easily rate it below anything between BoG and the U6 Tournament.
Last edited by Jinzoningen MULE on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Retired.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17024
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:20 pm

Even a short arc can be slow, but I do like that Super looks to be keeping arcs smaller than DBZ's. The Buu arc was around 90 episodes which doesn't work in its favor.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
omaro34
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1785
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:27 pm
Location: Western Canada

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by omaro34 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:21 pm

Kokonoe wrote:I don't, and I will freely admit that Buu saga has an abundant amount of inconsistencies, plot points that go nowhere, false hype, etc but at the end of the day it still has a villain that is far more entertaining and engaging than anything I've seen in Super. Not only that, but in terms of the anime, I haven't seen any fights that feel or look as good as the major ones in the Buu saga. Hell they some how made a candy fighting Buu the most entertaining thing ever.

Buu saga has a lot of creativity, it's heavily flawed, but it's highs make it enjoyable to watch in those moments.
Entertaining? That's up for debate but I can understand that. Engaging? I don't think so. Goku Black is one of the best developed villains this franchise has ever seen, far, far, far more than Majin Buu. Fat Buu was an immature child, and Kid Buu was an animal with no brain who just liked to destroy. Super Buu when he fused with Piccolo and Gotenks was a bit interesting, but that's only because he absorbed those characters. The real Super Buu with his favorite word: "Produce", was boring too.
"Kami is the Morgan Freeman of Dragonball Z"

Check out my Piccolo page: https://www.facebook.com/PiccoloTheSuperNamek/?ref=hl

User avatar
omaro34
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1785
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:27 pm
Location: Western Canada

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by omaro34 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:22 pm

ABED wrote:Even a short arc can be slow, but I do like that Super looks to be keeping arcs smaller than DBZ's. The Buu arc was around 90 episodes which doesn't work in its favor.
I highly recommend Super bud, if you do watch it skip the first two retellings and watch the 2 movies. Then begin from the Champa arc.

I'm sure you will enjoy the Future Trunks arc with Goku Black.
"Kami is the Morgan Freeman of Dragonball Z"

Check out my Piccolo page: https://www.facebook.com/PiccoloTheSuperNamek/?ref=hl

User avatar
Jinzoningen MULE
I Live Here
Posts: 4405
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:33 pm
Location: Salt Mines

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:28 pm

ABED wrote:Even a short arc can be slow, but I do like that Super looks to be keeping arcs smaller than DBZ's. The Buu arc was around 90 episodes which doesn't work in its favor.
By the way, the first home release of Super is out now, isn't it? Have you started watching yet?
Retired.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17024
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:45 pm

No. I don't plan on buying the home releases for a while. There's so much stuff out there, plus Netflix, that I'm finding it difficult to justify spending $30 for a series 13 episodes at a time. My hunger for DB is pretty satiated at this point. I'm sure I'll get around to seeing it eventually, but I'm not in any rush.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7840
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:31 pm

The worst of Z, Boo and Cell are nowhere near as bad as the worst of Super. The only actual thing I'd give Super over the Boo arc in this discussion is that Black is a way better bad guy.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
MR.Mark
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1709
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:11 am

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by MR.Mark » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:41 pm

ABED wrote: Vegeta let go of his insecurities, but he still has pride and still likes to fight on his own terms.
So letting earthlings help Goku throw a giant ball at a pink monster child is Vegeta fighting on his own terms? I still don't follow you.

The final battle was a series of people helping Goku save the universe, not anyone having a good fight on there own terms.
omaro34 wrote:

I'm sure you will enjoy the Future Trunks arc with Goku Black.
Agreed, alittle bullshit packed into 20 some odd episodes is far more tolerable than tons of bullshit packed into 90 some odd episodes.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17024
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:47 pm

They weren't helping in the sense of throwing down with Buu, they helped by giving their energy.
not anyone having a good fight on there own terms.
Minus the fact that Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse and fought one on one instead of at the same time, and didn't bring anyone to the Kaioshin Realm after the fight began. If their primary goal was to save the universe, their strategy was awful.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by precita » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:49 pm

The Buu arc being 90 episodes is paced well when you realize it's all split into several mini-arcs in the anime:

- Pikkon tournament
- Gohan in school and Saiyanman episodes
- World Tournament eps
- Babidi's ship episodes/Majin Vegeta leading to the hatching of Buu
- Fat Buu's randomness and Mr. Satan's friendship
- Super Buu and Gotenks arc
- Gohan eps
- Vegito eps
- Episodes inside Buu's body
- Final fight on the Supreme Kai world

Buu himself doesn't even appear till more than 30+ episodes into the saga. It's not like they were fighting Buu non-stop for 90 something episodes in a row.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17024
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:51 pm

60 episodes is still a lot. And the issue isn't that it's a long fight. Those arcs aren't mini arcs. For the most part, they don't have a beginning, middle, and end. It's a story that slowly unfolds and I'm not against a slow burn, but I didn't find most of the arc that interesting. The Great Saiyaman episodes wear out their welcome pretty quickly.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MR.Mark
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1709
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:11 am

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by MR.Mark » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:58 pm

ABED wrote:They weren't helping in the sense of throwing down with Buu, they helped by giving their energy.
not anyone having a good fight on there own terms.
Minus the fact that Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse and fought one on one instead of at the same time, and didn't bring anyone to the Kaioshin Realm after the fight began. If their primary goal was to save the universe, their strategy was awful.
At the end Goku and Vegeta weren't throwing down either once the Genkidama came in, so you're basically backing up my argument. Yes the strategy was awful, but of course it worked because Toriyama wanted Goku to win, simple as that.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:The animation... well, it has the cut that everyone knows Tadayoshi Yamamuro from:

Oh wow, I don't mean to keep plugging my fan edit but. That's still great art and choreography, but now it just looks slow and stiff to me.

https://vid.me/5pVw4

Check out how it flows here, just my opinion though. I've become a little spoiled on Super's smooth money shots.
Last edited by MR.Mark on Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17024
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:01 pm

MR.Mark wrote:
ABED wrote:They weren't helping in the sense of throwing down with Buu, they helped by giving their energy.
not anyone having a good fight on there own terms.
Minus the fact that Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse and fought one on one instead of at the same time, and didn't bring anyone to the Kaioshin Realm after the fight began. If their primary goal was to save the universe, their strategy was awful.
At the end Goku and Vegeta weren't throwing down either once the Genkidama came in, so you're basically backing up my argument. Yes the strategy was awful, but of course it worked because Toriyama wanted Goku to win, simple as that.
No I'm not because a ki attack is just as good as a punch.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MR.Mark
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1709
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:11 am

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by MR.Mark » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:03 pm

THEY wanted to defeat Buu...by relying on the earth's help. I guess the earth fought Buu too then if ki itself is comparable to pyhsicaly striking an opponent.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17024
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:17 pm

MR.Mark wrote:THEY wanted to defeat Buu...by relying on the earth's help. I guess the earth fought Buu too then if ki itself is comparable to pyhsicaly striking an opponent.
They aren't fighting, they are giving their energy. The attack is being formed by Goku. Ki itself isn't the same as striking. Every living thing in DB has ki. Using it as an attack is one aspect of ki.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MR.Mark
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1709
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:11 am

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by MR.Mark » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:26 pm

Exactly, The Ki isn't even Goku's, it's formed from other people then Goku launches it at the opponent. The Genkidama is an attack, not a fighting technique, probably the only attack in the entire series where it's not the users own ki.

If this was a kamehameha struggle like Gohan against Cell I might of agreed with you, but Goku didn't beat Buu physically or with his own ki. He simply got the win since he launched the attack, he also needed outside help of the Dragon Balls to give him the strength to even succeed. Anything but a good fight on anyone's own terms.

User avatar
Jinzoningen MULE
I Live Here
Posts: 4405
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:33 pm
Location: Salt Mines

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:38 pm

MR.Mark wrote:Oh wow, I don't mean to keep plugging my fan edit but. That's still great art and choreography, but now it just looks slow and stiff to me.

https://vid.me/5pVw4

Check out how it flows here, just my opinion though. I've become a little spoiled on Super's smooth money shots.
It's supposed to be very slow and literal, that's what gives the choreography such heavy weight.
Retired.

User avatar
MR.Mark
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1709
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:11 am

Re: Do you consider the Boo saga better than Super in general terms?

Post by MR.Mark » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:41 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
MR.Mark wrote:Oh wow, I don't mean to keep plugging my fan edit but. That's still great art and choreography, but now it just looks slow and stiff to me.

https://vid.me/5pVw4

Check out how it flows here, just my opinion though. I've become a little spoiled on Super's smooth money shots.
It's supposed to be very slow and literal, it gives the choreography a very heavy feel to it.
Eh I think it mainly comes down to the usual budget and padding, very little of the filler and animation choices in Z was due to an artistic vision.

Post Reply