Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

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Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:31 am

While he has become iconic, in the original manga, Freeza was simply an arc villain. Arguably the least significant one of the main four, given his relative lack of screen time compared to Vegeta, Cell, and Buu, because he was barely present for the first 2/3 of his arc. He was the only focus of his own arc for the duration of the final battle; beforehand all the focus was on his minions. After Goku defeated him (notably more or less on his own, unlike the other three) he then showed up at the very beginning of the Android Arc, was quickly killed by Trunks, and that was it for the character bar a few brief mentions later as a measuring stick (which happened to every villain, e.g. "Dabra's about as strong as Cell"). He did get to make cameo comebacks in the Otherworld Tournament anime arc, the twelfth DBZ movie, in the Hell filler bits of the Kid Buu fight, and in the Super 17 arc of GT, but even then only as a small part of a large army of villains.

Recently though, Freeza received a big upgrade in prominence. He was referenced constantly in BOG and the JSAT special, he got brought back with a huge power-up to be the main villain of the fifteenth DBZ movie, was the main villain of another whole arc in Super, and had a blatant clone of him (with the same voice actor and Goku/Vegeta outright calling him another universe's version of Freeza) acting as a side villain for the arc after that. Now, he's been brought back yet again to act as a member of the supporting cast during the new arc.

Why has Toriyama suddenly decided to give this character so much significance in the past five years? And why does he have Goku and Freeza acting like they know each other and are arch-enemies when they barely interacted (literally just that one fight, which was what, twenty minutes real time?) in the manga and Goku seemed to immediately forget him after kicking his ass?
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by sintzu » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:18 am

Toriyama isn't the only one working on it so with Freeza as popular as he is it's not surprising to see the other parties involved push him back into the spotlight.
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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by MaskedRider » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:28 am

Didn't Toriyama state he listened to F by Maximum the Hormone and that made him have a newfound love for Frieza?

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by precita » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:38 am

Because Super is heavily based on nostalgia and Freeza is the most memorable and iconic villain.

I made a thread about this before, Freeza has become "The Joker" of the Dragonball franchise. Or the, "Darth Vader," or the, "Shredder."
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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by Gog » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:49 am

Battle of Gods only really referenced Freeza near the beginning, I haven't seen the JSAT special so I can't judge the level of prominence he had in that. Frost isn't the only blatant Freeza clone, Chilled, Coola, and King Cold were all a thing in Dragon Ball long before he showed up, and they all had Ryūsei Nakao voicing them too. Simply put it, I just think that its Toriyama listening to F by Maximum the Hormone, and gaining the idea of Resurrection of Freeza for the main antagonist for the last Dragon Ball Movie which started all of this. Toriyama may have simply just used him in the Universal Survival arc simply because Toei asked if he could write the arc so he could be included in some way, shape or form. And why wouldn't they think that? With the surge of money, and the titanic success of ROF it just seems like the smartest choice putting him in the current arc.

And since the manga and anime versions of Super are both different in drastic ways. Their relationship in the anime could simply be attributed to Toei writing Goku, and Freeza as super arch enemies. It depends really on how different the versions handle the interactions between the two.

Of course, Goku and Freeza do know each other. They both had dramatic effects on each others lives. Freeza hates Goku more than words can describe, for essentially changing the very course of his life, humiliating him in battle, and Goku achieved Super Saiyan because of Freeza. He also regards Freeza as the worst of filth. Goku can still treat Freeza as a serious threat, and what's in the Universal Survival Arc is a special scenario. They're forced to interact, and work together, and that gives us some interesting interactions.

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:26 am

He is the villain that IMO all others have to work towards. Rather than recapture that in a new villain they chose to use someone they knew.

I think Frieza works now because we knew so little of him then. Also hes more twisted and sadistic than other DB villains.

I mean on Namek the way he toys with Goku...holding him under water, throwing him into lava, just all this crazy stuff where he could have ended it with a death beam.

His character has a flair the other villains just dont.
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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:59 pm

There is a justification for Frieza's prominence because of how intrinsically linked to the main characters he is. He's the ruler of a galactic trading corporation, had Vegeta under his boot for decades, destroyed the home world of the title character, had a significant encounter with Goku's father, caused Goku to accept pride in his Saiyan heritage, and killed his best friend that threw him in a fit of rage that initiated Super Saiyan. That's more than enough to put him above the likes of King Piccolo and Buu, and that's not even getting into the fact that most fans considered him to be Goku's greatest opponent and rival for years before this point, having been a significant part of DBZs most famous story arc.

There's also the fact that he laid claim to the title of The Most Powerful Being in the Universe. In a story about fighting the toughest thing you can see, Frieza was the tippity top of what was known at the time, giving him that extra bit of credence. Him being held back for most of Namek was mainly staving off the inevitable fight with him later, which is what happened with King Piccolo as well; Goku had to go through Tambourine, Cymbal (sort of) and Drum before taking on the big guy.

On Frieza specifically, his defeat at Goku's hand triggered an obsession in him to destroy Goku and give far more attention to him than Goku has for Frieza. I haven't seen Super, but the vibe I got from RoF was that while Frieza would rip Goku apart if he saw him across the street, Goku really couldn't care much less about him outside of the whole "could destroy the planet" thing. Despite his recent exposure in RoF and beyond, we still don't know that much about him. He's insanely powerful, uses politeness to hide his psychopathy, is somewhat lazy and really holds on to grudges. We don't know things like what the relationship with his father was, or how qualified he is to run a galactic corporation, whether he was triggered to be paranoid or if he was always like that, etc. We know a fair bit about his character, but basically nothing about his backstory.

For Toriyama, my guess is that after having been away from Dragon Ball for such a long time, he's kinda coming into it as a fan of his own work similar to us, so it isn't surprising that he focuses on the more famous bits like Super Saiyan power-ups and Frieza.

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by precita » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:56 pm

Probably helps matters that even when Freeza wasn't around the franchise constantly brought him up:

- Cell was said to have cells from Freeza constantly
- Two Cooler movies were made in this era with him being Freeza's brother
- The Buu arc showed or name dropped him several times
- Movie 12
- Frost in the U6 tournament was basically, "not Freeza" and this was before we knew he'd be evil or that Freeza would return

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by TheZFighter » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:40 pm

They've recently bought him back again as a late, surprise member of Team Universe 7, so story-wise, pushing him as the "arch-enemy", as you put it, would build this up and make it more effective, particularly to newer fans who perhaps don't appreciate who/ what Frieza was, compared to long time fans.
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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:22 pm

precita wrote:Probably helps matters that even when Freeza wasn't around the franchise constantly brought him up:

- Cell was said to have cells from Freeza constantly
- Two Cooler movies were made in this era with him being Freeza's brother
- The Buu arc showed or name dropped him several times
- Movie 12
- Frost in the U6 tournament was basically, "not Freeza" and this was before we knew he'd be evil or that Freeza would return
You forgot about GT.
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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:16 pm

KBABZ wrote:There is a justification for Frieza's prominence because of how intrinsically linked to the main characters he is. He's the ruler of a galactic trading corporation, had Vegeta under his boot for decades, destroyed the home world of the title character, had a significant encounter with Goku's father, caused Goku to accept pride in his Saiyan heritage, and killed his best friend that threw him in a fit of rage that initiated Super Saiyan. That's more than enough to put him above the likes of King Piccolo and Buu,
None of these are actual links to the main characters, except for the Vegeta thing. Goku never knew about the Saiyans or his father, and explicitly tells Freeza he doesn't care that he killed them. Freeza doesn't even make the connection between Bardock and Goku. There's no connection there. Also, at least one villain in every DBZ arc killed Krillin.
There's also the fact that he laid claim to the title of The Most Powerful Being in the Universe. In a story about fighting the toughest thing you can see, Frieza was the tippity top of what was known at the time, giving him that extra bit of credence.
This applied to most villains before him. In fact, Freeza himself is basically a retread and retcon of Saiyan arc Vegeta, who was also a powerful arrogant alien warlord running the planet trade who declared himself to be the strongest in the universe.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:30 pm

This applied to most villains before him. In fact, Freeza himself is basically a retread and retcon of Saiyan arc Vegeta, who was also a powerful arrogant alien warlord running the planet trade who declared himself to be the strongest in the universe.
He wasn't a retread of Vegeta. His personality is different from Vegeta in numerous important ways and people take Vegeta's self assessment as the strongest in the universe at face value as if he has never had an inflated view of his own self worth.
caused Goku to accept pride in his Saiyan heritage
Goku didn't struggle with it.

There are certain big connections to Goku's past, but Freeza is still just one big bad out of several. He's arguably the most popular, but there's no reason to keep him coming back unless it leads to some change. Even then, there's good argument to be made for get out while the gettin's good.
given his relative lack of screen time compared to Vegeta, Cell, and Buu, because he was barely present for the first 2/3 of his arc.
Um, what?
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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:46 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:None of these are actual links to the main characters, except for the Vegeta thing. Goku never knew about the Saiyans or his father, and explicitly tells Freeza he doesn't care that he killed them. Freeza doesn't even make the connection between Bardock and Goku. There's no connection there.
Sure, but we as an audience know that and it brings a level of pertinence to when Goku finally faces off against him on Namek, taking it beyond "Goku takes on a strong guy". Which kinda ties back to the original question: Frieza's been pushed into the limelight a lot because the audience cares so much about him. Otherwise, things like the Cooler movies and RoF wouldn't have been as interesting.
This applied to most villains before him. In fact, Freeza himself is basically a retread and retcon of Saiyan arc Vegeta, who was also a powerful arrogant alien warlord running the planet trade who declared himself to be the strongest in the universe.
Vegeta was a warlord? I also wasn't aware that he claimed to run the planet trade thing either.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Also, at least one villain in every DBZ arc killed Krillin.
Factually not true. Raditz didn't, Vegeta didn't, Cell didn't. Only Tambourine and Frieza can lay claim to that, with possible inclusions being the Androids in Future Trunk's timeline (who by proxy killed almost every other fighter as well) and Buu by way of absorption (which doesn't actually kill him). Chiaotzu has as many deaths as Krillin does!
ABED wrote:
caused Goku to accept pride in his Saiyan heritage
Goku didn't struggle with it.
For me it's mainly that he was horrified to hear about them from Raditz, then aside from a line to Kaio he doesn't refer to it again until Vegeta gets killed and says he'll take down Frieza in the name of the Saiyans, a stark contrast to the Raditz reaction.
ABED wrote:
This applied to most villains before him. In fact, Freeza himself is basically a retread and retcon of Saiyan arc Vegeta, who was also a powerful arrogant alien warlord running the planet trade who declared himself to be the strongest in the universe.
He wasn't a retread of Vegeta. His personality is different from Vegeta in numerous important ways and people take Vegeta's self assessment as the strongest in the universe at face value as if he has never had an inflated view of his own self worth.
Agreed; I always felt that Vegeta talking big about himself was a sort of "Well so long as the boss isn't here" sort of thing, combined with the whole "I should be the strongest in the universe" aspect.

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by Zephyr » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:34 am

KBABZ wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Also, at least one villain in every DBZ arc killed Krillin.
Factually not true. Raditz didn't, Vegeta didn't, Cell didn't. Only Tambourine and Frieza can lay claim to that, with possible inclusions being the Androids in Future Trunk's timeline (who by proxy killed almost every other fighter as well) and Buu by way of absorption (which doesn't actually kill him).
Buu killed him, for sure. He ate him as chocolate. Unlike Fat Buu, he wasn't a special case, and as such wasn't placed in a pod with other absorptions, being digested instead. He is brought back with everyone else when the wish to restore everyone back to life is made. The anime even depicts him in the afterlife between his being eaten by Buu and his revival by the Namekian Dragon Balls, for what it's worth.

Funnily enough, Buu also kills Chaozu, so they're still equal in that regard. If you include GT and Super, then they've each both died an additional time as well (Krillin in the Super 17 arc, Chaozu in RoF).

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:38 am

Zephyr wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Also, at least one villain in every DBZ arc killed Krillin.
Factually not true. Raditz didn't, Vegeta didn't, Cell didn't. Only Tambourine and Frieza can lay claim to that, with possible inclusions being the Androids in Future Trunk's timeline (who by proxy killed almost every other fighter as well) and Buu by way of absorption (which doesn't actually kill him).
Buu killed him, for sure. He ate him as chocolate. Unlike Fat Buu, he wasn't a special case, and as such wasn't placed in a pod with other absorptions, being digested instead. He is brought back with everyone else when the wish to restore everyone back to life is made. The anime even depicts him in the afterlife between his being eaten by Buu and his revival by the Namekian Dragon Balls, for what it's worth.

Funnily enough, Buu also kills Chaozu, so they're still equal in that regard. If you include GT and Super, then they've each both died an additional time as well (Krillin in the Super 17 arc, Chaozu in RoF).
Ah, I forgot about that! It's been a while since I've seen Buu, I'm waiting until I can get a full Season Blu-Ray of the Kai version so I can concisely catch up on it. Of course Krillin beat Chiaotzu in their 22nd Tournament match so he's got the leg up there.

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by Zephyr » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:40 am

KBABZ wrote:Ah, I forgot about that! It's been a while since I've seen Buu, I'm waiting until I can get a full Season Blu-Ray of the Kai version so I can concisely catch up on it.
No biggie! Had to take a quick glance at the manga to make sure I was remembering correctly. :P

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:42 am

Zephyr wrote:
KBABZ wrote:Ah, I forgot about that! It's been a while since I've seen Buu, I'm waiting until I can get a full Season Blu-Ray of the Kai version so I can concisely catch up on it.
No biggie! Had to take a quick glance at the manga to make sure I was remembering correctly. :P
I'm quite new here so I feel like I have to justify everything so I don't come off like a poser, heh.

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:13 am

I'm guessing it's because he was the villain when Goku first went SSj, which is a defining moment for some people.
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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:41 am

KBABZ wrote:Vegeta was a warlord? I also wasn't aware that he claimed to run the planet trade thing either.
In the Saiyan arc, it was stated that the saiyans were running the planet trade, and Vegeta was their leader. There was no mention of Freeza or any greater organization and his existence contradicts several things in that arc.
Factually not true. Raditz didn't, Vegeta didn't, Cell didn't. Only Tambourine and Frieza can lay claim to that, with possible inclusions being the Androids in Future Trunk's timeline (who by proxy killed almost every other fighter as well) and Buu by way of absorption (which doesn't actually kill him). Chiaotzu has as many deaths as Krillin does!
Every main villain. Buu turned him into chocolate and ate him. He's dead. The future androids also killed him. Freeza isn't special here.
For me it's mainly that he was horrified to hear about them from Raditz, then aside from a line to Kaio he doesn't refer to it again until Vegeta gets killed and says he'll take down Frieza in the name of the Saiyans, a stark contrast to the Raditz reaction.
Later in that fight he explicitly says Freeza wasn't really wrong for killing them (while alluding to some universal karmic balance or something).
Agreed; I always felt that Vegeta talking big about himself was a sort of "Well so long as the boss isn't here" sort of thing, combined with the whole "I should be the strongest in the universe" aspect.
Then you'd be incorrect, because he didn't talk big about himself. The "strongest in the universe" line came when he was thinking to himself. Freeza just didn't exist at this point.
ABED wrote:He wasn't a retread of Vegeta. His personality is different from Vegeta in numerous important ways
Saying that over and over again doesn't make it true.
and people take Vegeta's self assessment as the strongest in the universe at face value as if he has never had an inflated view of his own self worth.
Factually incorrect. Vegeta has never stated himself to be the strongest when he knew otherwise. He said he was the strongest in that arc, because he was the strongest. Freeza didn't exist in Toriyama's mind at this point.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Why the recent attempt to push Freeza as Goku's arch-enemy?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:00 am

You're gonna have to show the source of Vegeta claiming to run the planet trade, because I do not recall that being mentioned in either Kai or the Viz manga.

Krillin being killed by the Androids in Future Trunks' timeline is significantly lessened by the fact that Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Tien, Chiaotzu and Yamcha are also among the casualties; he's a part of a group that is killed off as part of a shocking and dark future for impact value, rather than singled out like with Frieza and Tambourine. Buu is similar, as Krillin is killed alongside almost every other sideline character at that point in the story, rather than being singled out.

On Vegeta, it doesn't seem that out of character to me that Vegeta would claim to be the strongest warrior in the universe when he's alone and fighting someone he has no respect for, so for me that works alongside Frieza.

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