Cell arc - Does the mystery work well?

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Super_Divine_Genki
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Re: Cell arc - Does the mystery work well?

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:08 am

Are there concrete rules with how time travel is supposed to work in fiction? I've always viewed it as an unknown variable, so whatever liberties an author takes in telling that kind of story shouldn't be much an issue as long is it can stay within the parameters of keeping to the narrative. If it's tying itself in knots all over the place, then it would be too convoluted for the viewer/reader to take in, but that doesn't happen here. It's vague, so any way that someone looks at it, a person would be straying into unnecessary over-thinking to attempt to put it all together (and inevitably create more questions for themselves than answers, a la chasing their own tail). The issues that many may have with time travel here is a nitpick, imo. There's room to play with with unknowns.
lancerman wrote: -Gero who admitted to not watching anything after Namek decided to alter his attack to be 19 and 20 instead of 17 and 18.
-17 and 18 are far less evil than their counterparts
-A disease Goku had occurs later
Anime adaptation -

Gero didn't decide anything different. In both timelines, it was Gero and #19 that first attacked the island city. F.Trunks was simply mistaken (he didn't know that a #19 existed, or that Gero had been converted). The scenarios played out in a similar way in both timelines, #17 & #18 were in "sleep mode" and were last resorts because of their disobedience (both timelines). Gero, and presumably #19, suffered the same fate in both timelines.

#17 and #18 are the same, but they developed different characteristics in their respective timelines because Goku had survived in the main timeline, and Cell had arrived. This led to #17 and #18 (main timeline) with #16 having their priority be to have fun in tracking down and eliminating the alive Goku. Their future counterparts had no Goku to put down (and no Cell as a threat), so after they killed off the remaining warriors, they were probably bored and decided to go recklessly "play" with the rest of the world over several years, giving them evil characteristics.

I don't remember Goku's disease being explained, but to head-canon, it was possibly seeded during the events of Namek with the emotional beating his heart took(?), which possibly made it vulnerable. Beyond that, he had been away from Earth in outer space for over a year (space virus?). The disease taking hold of Goku at different times is a result of F.Trunks warning, which created an alternate path. In the space of those three years of preparation, Goku had trained and strengthened his body/spirit - in base - to higher levels, which possibly enabled him to withstand the effects of the virus for longer than he should have(?).

I don't think that Toriyama was ever trying to send his audience into a head-spin. Space travel is probably something that's easier for us to work out, but I've never seen anyone have issue with how everyone found their way to Namek, and under varying times. We just said, "ok".

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Re: Cell arc - Does the mystery work well?

Post by andrewtuell1991 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:30 pm

In regards to Ekrolo2's question of where the 2nd Future Trunks timeline comes from: According to Dragon Ball time-travel logic, every time a trip to the past occurs, it branches the time-stream. Because Cell time-traveled to a point before Future Trunks' first time-travel, it split the timelines from 2 to 4. Now there are two Future Trunks, a Future Trunks who came back in time when Cell hadn't already time-traveled back year one before him (we'll call him Future Trunks A) and one who came back when Cell had already existed on Earth for a year (we'll call him Future Trunks B aka the Future Trunks we all know).

Future Trunks A is implied to defeated his Androids by deactivating them using a remote control created in the unseen timeline (whether the Androids were deactivated or befriended in the unseen timeline remains unknown) and is killed by the Cell who travels back a year before Future Trunks first time travel.

Future Trunks B kills his Androids with brute strength and overwhelms Cell three years later.

So basically, Cell's time-travel more or less time-cloned Future Trunks' apocalyptic future into two different timelines to make up for the fact that we now had two Future Trunks. That's the best I can explain it.

As for the heart virus timing discrepancy, I always thought Goku picked up the heart virus on Yardrat and something during his fight with Freeza and King Cold triggered it to act faster than in the non-ruined timelines.

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Re: Cell arc - Does the mystery work well?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:09 pm

Kinokima wrote:I am rewatching the Cell arc now and there is absolutely no mystery. The show basically tells you everything so where is the mystery?

That's not a criticism but in structure Cell is much closer to a suspense than a mystery.


Mystery is where you watch the characters trying to solve something. Both the audience and the characters don't know the answer to the mystery until the end of the story.

With suspense the audience may know things the characters do not or in the case of the Cell arc the characters do have the information but are powerless to stop the bad things happening (a lot of people say it was because of bad decisions and there is definitely some of that but there was also a lot of bad luck and bad timing). "Suspense is the waiting for something to happen" - Hitchcock


So no I don't think Cell is a good mystery at all but it works very well as a Suspense as we watch the characters first unable to stop the Androids and then unable to stop Cell powering up. Despite their knowledge there is a growing sense of uncertainty, dread but also excitement.
Okay, I picked the wrong term, but I think Thriller is in essence what I was getting at, as even suspense isn't exact. Everything in fiction is technically suspense.

And no we aren't told everything off the bat. We aren't told at the end, but it takes time for the full "mystery" to be solved. The audience doesn't know anything the characters know. We find out the answers as the characters do.
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Re: Cell arc - Does the mystery work well?

Post by Kinokima » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:30 pm

ABED wrote:
Kinokima wrote:I am rewatching the Cell arc now and there is absolutely no mystery. The show basically tells you everything so where is the mystery?

That's not a criticism but in structure Cell is much closer to a suspense than a mystery.


Mystery is where you watch the characters trying to solve something. Both the audience and the characters don't know the answer to the mystery until the end of the story.

With suspense the audience may know things the characters do not or in the case of the Cell arc the characters do have the information but are powerless to stop the bad things happening (a lot of people say it was because of bad decisions and there is definitely some of that but there was also a lot of bad luck and bad timing). "Suspense is the waiting for something to happen" - Hitchcock


So no I don't think Cell is a good mystery at all but it works very well as a Suspense as we watch the characters first unable to stop the Androids and then unable to stop Cell powering up. Despite their knowledge there is a growing sense of uncertainty, dread but also excitement.
Okay, I picked the wrong term, but I think Thriller is in essence what I was getting at, as even suspense isn't exact. Everything in fiction is technically suspense.

And no we aren't told everything off the bat. We aren't told at the end, but it takes time for the full "mystery" to be solved. The audience doesn't know anything the characters know. We find out the answers as the characters do.

Well I don't really think there is a true mystery to solve the characters tend to find out information pretty quickly as the arc goes on. We as an audience aren't asked to solve anything.

However while I think Cell does have some elements of suspense you are right that thriller may be even a better word to describe it. With Suspense usually the characters don't know what the audience does and that's not really the case here. In a thriller the protagonist would know the danger which definitely describes this arc.

Anyways I didn't mean to come in and say you are wrong it was more a combination of the fact that I am rewatching this arc now and my love for Hitchcock who has talked extensively on the difference between suspense & mystery that made me weigh in.

I don't like everything about the Cell arc but as a thriller I do think it works very well building up the tension in making it impossible for the characters to stop what is happening despite knowing the danger.

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Re: Cell arc - Does the mystery work well?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:22 pm

My own understanding of the changes to the timeline:

19 and 20 attack. Maybe the Z-Fighters investigate, maybe they don't until more of these attacks occur. Either way, between the first attack and whenever everyone encounters 17 and 18, Gero has been continuously tinkering with 17 and 18 to bring them more under his control. This most likely involved reducing their power to make them more manageable. I'm assuming that when the Z-Fighters finally came across beings who they can't sense, running around destroying stuff, they just assumed that they were the only two involved.

Goku's heart virus could just be attributed to differences in his lifestyle between the two timelines. Maybe all the peace allowed it to progress faster. Or all the strenuous training kept it at bay.

And I've always taken Trunks not discribing the Androids as him thinking "How could you not know them when you see them".
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Re: Cell arc - Does the mystery work well?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:16 am

Anyways I didn't mean to come in and say you are wrong it was more a combination of the fact that I am rewatching this arc now and my love for Hitchcock who has talked extensively on the difference between suspense & mystery that made me weigh in.
No, I appreciate your input. Sadly, just writing "no" can come off harsher than I mean it to.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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