What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:44 am

This is the arc where characters are forced to act in a certain way in order for the story to progress. Goku's decision to let the androids be built because he simply wants to fight him I think is a poor excuse, I would like to think Goku has more self restraint than this but I just really think Toriyama could have went towards a different explanation.

Or maybe it's because the Dragon balls exist?
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:14 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:This is the arc where characters are forced to act in a certain way in order for the story to progress. Goku's decision to let the androids be built because he simply wants to fight him I think is a poor excuse, I would like to think Goku has more self restraint than this but I just really think Toriyama could have went towards a different explanation.

Or maybe it's because the Dragon balls exist?
It's not out of character at all. Goku let Vegeta AND Piccolo go because he wanted a better fight. Yeah, he tried to let Freeza go out of mercy, but he partially wanted to call it quits because he was bored. Freeza was no longer a challenge for him.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:46 pm

ABED wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:This is the arc where characters are forced to act in a certain way in order for the story to progress. Goku's decision to let the androids be built because he simply wants to fight him I think is a poor excuse, I would like to think Goku has more self restraint than this but I just really think Toriyama could have went towards a different explanation.

Or maybe it's because the Dragon balls exist?
It's not out of character at all. Goku let Vegeta AND Piccolo go because he wanted a better fight. Yeah, he tried to let Freeza go out of mercy, but he partially wanted to call it quits because he was bored. Freeza was no longer a challenge for him.
The thing about the androids, if Goku said to Bulma to hunt down the laboratory then there would be no arc which is what kind of bugs me where as, if Goku didn't spare Vegeta and Piccolo then we could still continue.

However, I do feel these character traits were written to exist in Z because it is something new of Goku but I guess you could also argue we didn't see enough examples of those traits being explored for Goku in the original Dragon ball.

Vegeta and Piccolo are kind of a more drive for Goku to become strong than some random androids. So I think that is also that needs to be pointed out.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by SmugStick » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:47 pm

With dragonball, fairly high. I will defend Goku not taking the heart medicine and giving Goten and Trunks the mission to defeat Boo till the day I die.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:46 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:
ABED wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:This is the arc where characters are forced to act in a certain way in order for the story to progress. Goku's decision to let the androids be built because he simply wants to fight him I think is a poor excuse, I would like to think Goku has more self restraint than this but I just really think Toriyama could have went towards a different explanation.

Or maybe it's because the Dragon balls exist?
It's not out of character at all. Goku let Vegeta AND Piccolo go because he wanted a better fight. Yeah, he tried to let Freeza go out of mercy, but he partially wanted to call it quits because he was bored. Freeza was no longer a challenge for him.
The thing about the androids, if Goku said to Bulma to hunt down the laboratory then there would be no arc which is what kind of bugs me where as, if Goku didn't spare Vegeta and Piccolo then we could still continue.

However, I do feel these character traits were written to exist in Z because it is something new of Goku but I guess you could also argue we didn't see enough examples of those traits being explored for Goku in the original Dragon ball.

Vegeta and Piccolo are kind of a more drive for Goku to become strong than some random androids. So I think that is also that needs to be pointed out.
Then you miss the point of who the characters are. Goku isn't out to stop the cyborgs from destroying the world. He wants to fight them. These traits always existed. We see more than enough examples in the series, like the ones I mentioned. The cyborgs are just as much a driving force for Goku to get stronger as Piccolo was. Letting Vegeta go was the same thing.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:49 pm

ABED wrote:Then you miss the point of who the characters are. Goku isn't out to stop the cyborgs from destroying the world. He wants to fight them. These traits always existed. We see more than enough examples in the series, like the ones I mentioned. The cyborgs are just as much a driving force for Goku to get stronger as Piccolo was. Letting Vegeta go was the same thing.
I understand that, it's just for certain moments like the androids, the execution would be better. Maybe it's just me being wishful that Goku would kind of fight off against his desires at certain moments.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:55 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:
ABED wrote:Then you miss the point of who the characters are. Goku isn't out to stop the cyborgs from destroying the world. He wants to fight them. These traits always existed. We see more than enough examples in the series, like the ones I mentioned. The cyborgs are just as much a driving force for Goku to get stronger as Piccolo was. Letting Vegeta go was the same thing.
I understand that, it's just for certain moments like the androids, the execution would be better. Maybe it's just me being wishful that Goku would kind of fight off against his desires at certain moments.
What's wrong with the execution?
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:03 pm

ABED wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:
ABED wrote:Then you miss the point of who the characters are. Goku isn't out to stop the cyborgs from destroying the world. He wants to fight them. These traits always existed. We see more than enough examples in the series, like the ones I mentioned. The cyborgs are just as much a driving force for Goku to get stronger as Piccolo was. Letting Vegeta go was the same thing.
I understand that, it's just for certain moments like the androids, the execution would be better. Maybe it's just me being wishful that Goku would kind of fight off against his desires at certain moments.
What's wrong with the execution?
It's pretty much what I mentioned before. The difference in story from Vegeta and Piccolo and the Androids is different. I am not saying how Toriyama handled it is "bad" (maybe lazy?) but not up to how I think it should have been (though that is subjective).

Like Goku's decision to let the androids completely be without any restrain is kind of forced (imo) because for the arc to continue, it solely relies on this decision without any back and forth.

Where as, the placement of Vegeta and Piccolo I find is more fitting because it doesn't try to tightly squeeze in to push for it to be. Where as here, we would have no arc despite the setup.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:07 pm

How is it different. I fail to see how letting Vegeta go so he can fight him again is any different than letting the Cyborgs be created.
Where as, the placement of Vegeta and Piccolo I find is more fitting because it doesn't try to tightly squeeze in to push for it to be.
I have no idea what this means.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:14 pm

ABED wrote:How is it different. I fail to see how letting Vegeta go so he can fight him again is any different than letting the Cyborgs be created.
Where as, the placement of Vegeta and Piccolo I find is more fitting because it doesn't try to tightly squeeze in to push for it to be.
I have no idea what this means.
I mean in terms of a narrative perspective, I find it forced.

And what I mean is, when Goku spares Vegeta and Piccolo, it's more so done towards the end and the overall plot doesn't revolve around this specific character trait which I find more natural for the story.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:24 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:
ABED wrote:How is it different. I fail to see how letting Vegeta go so he can fight him again is any different than letting the Cyborgs be created.
Where as, the placement of Vegeta and Piccolo I find is more fitting because it doesn't try to tightly squeeze in to push for it to be.
I have no idea what this means.
I mean in terms of a narrative perspective, I find it forced.

And what I mean is, when Goku spares Vegeta and Piccolo, it's more so done towards the end and the overall plot doesn't revolve around this specific character trait which I find more natural for the story.
But why is it bad that this arc is instigated by that trait? I get that it's different, but it's not out of character. And what's wrong with that trait storywise? This isn't a morality tale about heroes out to save the world. All that matters is if it's interesting.

As best I can tell, the reason you don't like it is because it makes them look immoral.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:35 pm

ABED wrote: As best I can tell, the reason you don't like it is because it makes them look immoral.
Probably I just find it forced here in this instance. I get Goku is not Superman but I find (in relating to this thread topic) stretching the line a bit. I kind of would like to think there would be a bit more depth to why or how the story created rather than people dying because of someone's very irresponsible decision.

Toriyama could have kept that aspect but at the same time, though if it wasn't the sole reason to why this situation came about.

Me personally, I would have found it more interesting if Goku wanted to fight the androids but there was this small internal conflict.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:37 pm

I think you are looking at it through a western lens instead of a Wuxia genre lens.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:43 pm

ABED wrote:I think you are looking at it through a western lens instead of a Wuxia genre lens.
I did a quick google search of the Wuxia genre.

You might be right on that I still do believe it could have been handled better while fitting that genre.
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Re: What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:11 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:
ABED wrote:I think you are looking at it through a western lens instead of a Wuxia genre lens.
I did a quick google search of the Wuxia genre.

You might be right on that I still do believe it could have been handled better while fitting that genre.
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