Roshi's antics

[PelicanDynasty]

And much like Roshi's antics, everyone forgets about it, including the people Vegeta tried to kill and they're both respected for it. Nobody cares Vegeta was a bad guy before, even though he and Nappa got Piccolo, Tien, Chiaotzu and Yamcha killed, and almost killed Goku, Krillin, Gohan and Yajirobe along with the entire planet! And yet, Vegeta's shit doesn't count because he shoots lazurs out of his hands but Roshi's are too realistic so it doesn't count?

It's been acknowledged by fans many times that Vegeta becoming buddy buddy with everyone is dumb. It does count, the same as Roshi's actions. And it was handled just as poorly as Roshi's actions.

[rereboy]

I'm on the side that all of those antics of Roshi's were terrible. The message is not that it should be censored or acknowledged with a disclaimer, but it is really disturbing to read how many people actually find nothing wrong with it.

Because it's not meant to be taken seriously, it's a joke. For example, I watch horror movies where people are turned to shreds and I am entertained watching it because it's not meant to be taken seriously. Does that mean that I wouldn't find appalling, horrible and one of the worst experiences in my life if I actually saw a person being torn torn apart in front of me? Of course not because that would actually be serious. And if I had that to experience that, would I still enjoy enjoy horror movies where people are turned to shreds? Probably not, but if I went out of my way to ask people what was wrong with them just because they still enjoy horror movies when I just can't anymore, I would be way out of line. Who would be in the wrong would be me because I would have lost my ability to not take seriously what is meant to not be taken seriously, not the people that still are perfectly able to not confuse things. And that's the whole issue here.

[Asura]

So what's the difference between Muten Roshi and those kinds of men?

Muten Roshi does not exist, the Dragon Ball universe does not exist, the women in the Dragon Ball universe do not exist, and quite frankly the way that women react to Roshi's antics is not based on any kind of reality either. Getting upset over a completely made up character in a completely made up fantasy world doing things to completely made up women who react in a mostly carefree matter is ridiculous. It is a cartoon, and you should not be treating it as if it were real life because it isn't real life, and does not try to depict real life either.

Does that mean you have to like these things? No. I personally hate episode 89 and find it disgusting, and I find the joke in 105 disgusting too. They're just not funny, and don't really even fall in line with most of his previous antics.

[ekrolo2]

And much like Roshi's antics, everyone forgets about it, including the people Vegeta tried to kill and they're both respected for it. Nobody cares Vegeta was a bad guy before, even though he and Nappa got Piccolo, Tien, Chiaotzu and Yamcha killed, and almost killed Goku, Krillin, Gohan and Yajirobe along with the entire planet! And yet, Vegeta's shit doesn't count because he shoots lazurs out of his hands but Roshi's are too realistic so it doesn't count?

It's been acknowledged by fans many times that Vegeta becoming buddy buddy with everyone is dumb. It does count, the same as Roshi's actions. And it was handled just as poorly as Roshi's actions.

On Kanzenshuu sure, outside it? No. Bring up Vegeta as a comparison for how his shit gets swept under the rug while Roshi's now a creeper since day one, never mind the fact, as Gaffer Tape pointed out, Bulma is hardly virtuous about her sexuality, who's become a lightning rod. Because sex > violence.

[rereboy]

So what's the difference between Muten Roshi and those kinds of men?

Muten Roshi does not exist, the Dragon Ball universe does not exist, the women in the Dragon Ball universe do not exist, and quite frankly the way that women react to Roshi's antics is not based on any kind of reality either. Getting upset over a completely made up character in a completely made up fantasy world doing things to completely made up women who react in a mostly carefree matter is ridiculous. It is a cartoon, and you should not be treating it as if it were real life because it isn't real life, and does not try to depict real life either.

I would argue that it's because it's not meant to be taken seriously, regardless of the fact that they don't even exist. Fiction can be made to be taken seriously, regardless of the fact that it's not real, but this is not the case. The main factor is, despite not being even real, that it's not meant to be serious at all.

[TheZFighter]

I have to say I do find myself conflicted about Roshi nowadays.

As a youngster watching originally I wasn't really "aware" of the serious implications of Roshi's lecherous behaviour and didn't pay much notice. I liked the character a lot and just viewed his gross perversion as a quirk. Now I look through older eyes I find I really dislike that side of the character.

It may explain why we saw so little of him in DBZ compared to DB. It is a shame because he's always done the wise old guy thing so well.

The problem is looking at it from a real world perspective instead of a fantasyperspective. Just like the Goku is a terrible father thing should not be looked at from a realistic perspective because the dragon world is so different from ours. Sheesh, when people take gags in a cartoon to seriously.

Real world or fantasy world, unfortunately its still an old bloke acting rather inappropriately.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So what's the difference between Muten Roshi and those kinds of men?

Muten Roshi does not exist, the Dragon Ball universe does not exist, the women in the Dragon Ball universe do not exist, and quite frankly the way that women react to Roshi's antics is not based on any kind of reality either. Getting upset over a completely made up character in a completely made up fantasy world doing things to completely made up women who react in a mostly carefree matter is ridiculous. It is a cartoon, and you should not be treating it as if it were real life because it isn't real life, and does not try to depict real life either.

I would argue that it's because it's not meant to be taken seriously, regardless of the fact that they don't even exist. Fiction can be made to be taken seriously, regardless of the fact that it's not real, but this is not the case. The main factor is, despite not being even real, that it's not meant to be serious at all.

And furthermore, it's not as if the series is endorsing his actions in any way.

[AgitoZ]

I think a discussion on Roshi's antics is an interesting topic. With something like comedy everything's so subjective that it would be insightful to gather everyone's thoughts on the effectiveness of his actions. Or even how it relates to his character, like if it doesn't perhaps undermine his more serious moments.

But it doesn't seem like this thread is about that. It seems like people are more interested in discussing the negative effects Roshi's antics have on the real world. I feel this discussion has gone nowhere and will continue to until the people claiming this can actually prove this to be true in the first place. The burden of proof is on them.

[PsionicWarrior]

Him squeezing someone's boob or rubbing someone's ass or shrinking himself to watch a girl go to the bathroom is not a joke.

But that's not even half the joke mate, before that is the part where he acts all retarded and right after is the part where he gets beaten up for it, every single time, be fair man lol

[TheGreatness25]

The series endorses his actions by having him be a protagonist. So based on some of the logic, if Roshi actually went all the way and pulled Bulma by her hair and forced himself on her, it would be okay because it's not meant to be taken seriously? I'm just trying to find the line between "Haha it's just a joke" and "Okay, that's a bit much."

[rereboy]

I have to say I do find myself conflicted about Roshi nowadays.

As a youngster watching originally I wasn't really "aware" of the serious implications of Roshi's lecherous behaviour and didn't pay much notice. I liked the character a lot and just viewed his gross perversion as a quirk. Now I look through older eyes I find I really dislike that side of the character.

It may explain why we saw so little of him in DBZ compared to DB. It is a shame because he's always done the wise old guy thing so well.

The problem is looking at it from a real world perspective instead of a fantasyperspective. Just like the Goku is a terrible father thing should not be looked at from a realistic perspective because the dragon world is so different from ours. Sheesh, when people take gags in a cartoon to seriously.

Real world or fantasy world, unfortunately its still an old bloke acting rather inappropriately.

Which is not to be taken seriously. Almost all humor has people behaving inappropriately, it's never meant to be taken seriously or meant to be taken as support for those actions.

[TheGreatness25]

But something like pedophilia, sexual harassment, and sexual assault hit too close to home for many people. You can call them "overly-sensitive" all you want, but if unfortunately you knew someone who was a victim of that, you might not be laughing. That's why many people don't laugh at it and don't find it funny. If you had some sort of disease and the series kept jabbing at it and making fun of it, you'd be very upset by it too. You wouldn't just laugh it off and say, "Well it's not meant to be taken seriously." But my entire point is you don't need to know someone or suffer from something yourself to have sympathy and empathy for others and acknowledge that something just is not funny and cannot be made into a joke. Brushing it off like that shows a real lack of compassion, understanding, sympathy, empathy, and humanity, in my opinion. Sorry, but I can't budge on that point.

[PsionicWarrior]

if Roshi actually went all the way and pulled Bulma by her hair and forced himself on her, it would be okay because it's not meant to be taken seriously? I'm just trying to find the line between "Haha it's just a joke" and "Okay, that's a bit much."

But that's the thing, Roshi NEVER went all the way and never will, otherwise yes it wouldn't be ok, the series actually drew the line pretty much by NOT letting any actual rape scene happen and only have him getting slapped and ending up with broken teeth or other comical effect, SPECIALLY SO to make it clear that it is not appropriate behavior to have cheers lol

[Asura]

So what's the difference between Muten Roshi and those kinds of men?

Muten Roshi does not exist, the Dragon Ball universe does not exist, the women in the Dragon Ball universe do not exist, and quite frankly the way that women react to Roshi's antics is not based on any kind of reality either. Getting upset over a completely made up character in a completely made up fantasy world doing things to completely made up women who react in a mostly carefree matter is ridiculous. It is a cartoon, and you should not be treating it as if it were real life because it isn't real life, and does not try to depict real life either.

I would argue that it's because it's not meant to be taken seriously, regardless of the fact that they don't even exist. Fiction can be made to be taken seriously, regardless of the fact that it's not real, but this is not the case. The main factor is, despite not being even real, that it's not meant to be serious at all.

Yes, I would agree with this. It's mainly the fact that none of this is at taken serious at all by any party involved, even the "victims" of Roshi's antics. I feel like episode 89 crosses this line though and is what makes it the most disturbing of the Roshi pervert jokes because it feels downright uncomfortable to watch. It's not played as some sort of comedic scene, it's a girl screaming for her life while an old man chases her around after dressing her up. Contrast this to something like Roshi trying to lift up Launch's skirt with his chop sticks under the table, which is very lighthearted and not taken seriously by anyone, or even all his antics with Bulma who usually gives him a slap and that's the end of the scene.

[TheGreatness25]

if Roshi actually went all the way and pulled Bulma by her hair and forced himself on her, it would be okay because it's not meant to be taken seriously? I'm just trying to find the line between "Haha it's just a joke" and "Okay, that's a bit much."

But that's the thing, Roshi NEVER went all the way and never will, otherwise yes it wouldn't be ok, the manga actually drew the line pretty much by NOT letting any actual rape scene happen and only have him getting slapped and ending up with broken teeth or other comical effect, SPECIALLY SO to make it clear that it is not appropriate behavior cheers lol

Oh okay, so I should be happy that Roshi isn't an acutal rapist, but he's just a pedophile that commits sexual assault and sexual harrassment. But hey! He gets slapped in the end. Hardy-har-har.

Some things cannot be made into a joke and this is just one of them. To me, those who can't understand that, are either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life.

[rereboy]

The series endorses his actions by having him be a protagonist. So based on some of the logic, if Roshi actually went all the way and pulled Bulma by her hair and forced himself on her, it would be okay because it's not meant to be taken seriously? I'm just trying to find the line between "Haha it's just a joke" and "Okay, that's a bit much."

The line is the context.

Someone getting drunk and running over 5 gardens can be meant to be taken seriously if we are watching a drama and the movie portrays and executes it seriously, or it can be meant to not be taken seriously at all if we are watching a comedy and the movie doesn't portrays and executes it seriously at all.

DB doesn't portray or execute Roshi's antics seriously at all.

[Asura]

But something like pedophilia, sexual harassment, and sexual assault hit too close to home for many people. You can call them "overly-sensitive" all you want, but if unfortunately you knew someone who was a victim of that, you might not be laughing. That's why many people don't laugh at it and don't find it funny. If you had some sort of disease and the series kept jabbing at it and making fun of it, you'd be very upset by it too. You wouldn't just laugh it off and say, "Well it's not meant to be taken seriously." But my entire point is you don't need to know someone or suffer from something yourself to have sympathy and empathy for others and acknowledge that something just is not funny and cannot be made into a joke. Brushing it off like that shows a real lack of compassion, understanding, sympathy, empathy, and humanity, in my opinion. Sorry, but I can't budge on that point.

There are a lot of topics that hit too close to home for a lot of people. Am I a horrible human being because I don't sympathize with every single person on the receiving end of a joke which may or may not offend them?

if Roshi actually went all the way and pulled Bulma by her hair and forced himself on her, it would be okay because it's not meant to be taken seriously? I'm just trying to find the line between "Haha it's just a joke" and "Okay, that's a bit much."

But that's the thing, Roshi NEVER went all the way and never will, otherwise yes it wouldn't be ok, the manga actually drew the line pretty much by NOT letting any actual rape scene happen and only have him getting slapped and ending up with broken teeth or other comical effect, SPECIALLY SO to make it clear that it is not appropriate behavior cheers lol

Oh okay, so I should be happy that Roshi isn't an acutal rapist, but he's just a pedophile that commits sexual assault and sexual harrassment. But hey! He gets slapped in the end. Hardy-har-har.

Some things cannot be made into a joke and this is just one of them. To me, those who can't understand that, are either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life.

Why can some things not be made into a joke? Either everything can be made into a joke, or nothing can be made into a joke. To pick and choose is to be hypocritical. People are victims of lots of things. Like I just said, am I some kind of monster because I don't sympathize with people who can relate their experiences to jokes?

[TheGreatness25]

The series endorses his actions by having him be a protagonist. So based on some of the logic, if Roshi actually went all the way and pulled Bulma by her hair and forced himself on her, it would be okay because it's not meant to be taken seriously? I'm just trying to find the line between "Haha it's just a joke" and "Okay, that's a bit much."

The line is the context.

Someone getting drunk and running over 5 gardens can be meant to be taken seriously if we are watching a drama and the movie portrays and executes it seriously, or it can be meant to not be taken seriously at all if we are watching a comedy and the movie doesn't portrays and executes it seriously at all.

DB doesn't portray or execute Roshi's antics seriously at all.

The subject is one that is much more deep, personal, and damaging than the example you mentioned. Just because Dragon Ball doesn't take it seriously, doesn't mean that the subject itself is not serious. That's kind of the point.

[rereboy]

Oh okay, so I should be happy that Roshi isn't an acutal rapist, but he's just a pedophile that commits sexual assault and sexual harrassment. But hey! He gets slapped in the end. Hardy-har-har.

Some things cannot be made into a joke and this is just one of them. To me, those who can't understand that, are either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life.

Following that reasoning, everyone that has witnessed a murder should run off and tell people that enjoy movies where people die that they are "either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life".

The subject is one that is much more deep, personal, and damaging than the example you mentioned. Just because Dragon Ball doesn't take it seriously, doesn't mean that the subject itself is not serious. That's kind of the point.

Same as above. That would mean that we should say all that to everyone who enjoys action movies, dramas, thrillers, horror, or anything that other people might not enjoy due to some traumatic experience in their lives.

[Doctor.]

How is it a joke? How is it funny?

You not finding it funny doesn't mean that it wasn't mean to be a joke.

Yes, the subject plays a giant role in this. Many people are not uncomfortable with over-powered people bashing each others' faces in, but sexual and racial issues are very controversial because they hit too close to home. No, I don't know anyone that was blasted away by some alien, but you can know someone who was stared at uncomfortably, touched, or spoken to with a sexual motivation. It's something that exists and is disgusting in real life. Should we turn a blind eye to it because Toriyama wrote about it and we like the general series? The big warriors come out to throw criticism on people with, "People are so over-sensitive about sex stuff!" Yes, because it's real and it's uncomfortable. Because many people face that -- especially young women. There are little girls who are targeted by that kind of disgusting behavior. I've known girls -- little girls -- who have been looked at, touched, and spoken to by middle-aged men.

You might as well never write anything if you're afraid of offending someone. Sex? Off-limits, it's uncomfortable. Violence? People were bullied in their childhood, you know. War? PSTD, man.

Might as well just air reruns of Sesame Street on TV for the rest of existence. Oh, wait, some people may have some childhood trauma regarding puppets.

So what's the difference between Muten Roshi and those kinds of men? [...] Having it be dismissed as, "Oh that Roshi, he's so silly," is ridiculous. If you knew this guy in real life and gave him a pass for what he does, then you are supporting a horrendous human being. [...] Asking teenage girls for their underwear is not a joke. Touching women is not a joke. Him trying to hit on a woman to get shut down can be a joke. Roshi being caught with a ton of embarrassing porn can be a joke. Roshi watching his little exercise videos can be a joke. Him squeezing someone's boob or rubbing someone's ass or shrinking himself to watch a girl go to the bathroom is not a joke. Never was, never will be. You wouldn't give a pass to the guy who lives on the corner house doing it, why does Roshi get a pass?

Roshi is not real. I'm not giving a horrendous human being a pass, he's a fictional character who doesn't represent anyone and whose actions affect nobody.

The fact that these are aliens that shoot fireballs out of their hands gets thrown around as an excuse to the violence and the murder, but then you turn around and pretend Roshi is a real character?

In this age, we understand what Muten Roshi does. We can't turn a blind eye to it and laugh it up. Let's put a different spin on it, let's say that Roshi isn't a perv, let's say that he's a racist. And let's say there are characters who portray a different race than Roshi and he continuously calls them derogatory names, spits at them, and tries to have them killed, would you say, "Well that's just the humor!" I certainly hope not. This is just as bad, but targeted toward women rather than people of a different race. It's all behavior that should never be glorified, encouraged, nor supported.

That's exactly the kind of humor Unckle Ruckus from The Boondocks thrives on and he's one of the most beloved characters of the show.