Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Attitudefan wrote:
However, the magical clothes that come with the design is a huge gripe of mine. So, the clothes they initially transform in for the first time, are now stuck with that apparel forever? Vegeta literally regrows his shirt when he falls back to base form!
And Goku loses and regrows his 1,5m long hair as well as his eyebrows every second he turns SSJ3. It is incredible how many people are unfairly treating SSJ4 because of "clothes". The characters literally have the power to revert back into a humanoid form. It would not be all too crazy to for the writers to bring up something along the line of "reshaping matter so even clothes can be materialized out of energy and all" thing. Yes it is not mentioned and that is silly. But it is even sillier to think SSJ4 is that super silly exception.
And YES, SSJ4 is not a Super Saiyajin form. It is not a part of these transformations and only named that because the name easily sticks to one's mind.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
Attitudefan wrote:
However, the magical clothes that come with the design is a huge gripe of mine. So, the clothes they initially transform in for the first time, are now stuck with that apparel forever? Vegeta literally regrows his shirt when he falls back to base form!
And Goku loses and regrows his 1,5m long hair as well as his eyebrows every second he turns SSJ3. It is incredible how many people are unfairly treating SSJ4 because of "clothes". The characters literally have the power to revert back into a humanoid form. It would not be all too crazy to for the writers to bring up something along the line of "reshaping matter so even clothes can be materialized out of energy and all" thing. Yes it is not mentioned and that is silly. But it is even sillier to think SSJ4 is that super silly exception.
And YES, SSJ4 is not a Super Saiyajin form. It is not a part of these transformations and only named that because the name easily sticks to one's mind.
Nobody cares about magic clothing when the fusion dance happens even though it makes no sense for the dance to give you clothes from an entirely different species. And no, just because its a Metamoran technique doesn't explain anything, does Goku grow Kaio's clothes when he uses the Kaio-Ken or Spirit Bomb? Does Vegeta grow the Turtle School gi when he uses the Kienzan? They're from different species too.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Attitudefan wrote:
However, the magical clothes that come with the design is a huge gripe of mine. So, the clothes they initially transform in for the first time, are now stuck with that apparel forever? Vegeta literally regrows his shirt when he falls back to base form!
And Goku loses and regrows his 1,5m long hair as well as his eyebrows every second he turns SSJ3. It is incredible how many people are unfairly treating SSJ4 because of "clothes". The characters literally have the power to revert back into a humanoid form. It would not be all too crazy to for the writers to bring up something along the line of "reshaping matter so even clothes can be materialized out of energy and all" thing. Yes it is not mentioned and that is silly. But it is even sillier to think SSJ4 is that super silly exception.
And YES, SSJ4 is not a Super Saiyajin form. It is not a part of these transformations and only named that because the name easily sticks to one's mind.
Nobody cares about magic clothing when the fusion dance happens even though it makes no sense for the dance to give you clothes from an entirely different species. And no, just because its a Metamoran technique doesn't explain anything, does Goku grow Kaio's clothes when he uses the Kaio-Ken or Spirit Bomb? Does Vegeta grow the Turtle School gi when he uses the Kienzan? They're from different species too.
But Fusion has its own clothing that comes with the transformation. Vegeta's leather pants are part of that transformation forever! If the form had its own clothes that were different than the clothing they wore the first time they achieved SSJ4, than that is different.
Comparing Fusion's magical clothing to SSJ4's is like comparing apples to oranges.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada
Attitudefan wrote:
However, the magical clothes that come with the design is a huge gripe of mine. So, the clothes they initially transform in for the first time, are now stuck with that apparel forever? Vegeta literally regrows his shirt when he falls back to base form!
And Goku loses and regrows his 1,5m long hair as well as his eyebrows every second he turns SSJ3. It is incredible how many people are unfairly treating SSJ4 because of "clothes". The characters literally have the power to revert back into a humanoid form. It would not be all too crazy to for the writers to bring up something along the line of "reshaping matter so even clothes can be materialized out of energy and all" thing. Yes it is not mentioned and that is silly. But it is even sillier to think SSJ4 is that super silly exception.
And YES, SSJ4 is not a Super Saiyajin form. It is not a part of these transformations and only named that because the name easily sticks to one's mind.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Hair is a part of the body. Clothes, you know, aren't.
Attitudefan wrote:
However, the magical clothes that come with the design is a huge gripe of mine. So, the clothes they initially transform in for the first time, are now stuck with that apparel forever? Vegeta literally regrows his shirt when he falls back to base form!
And Goku loses and regrows his 1,5m long hair as well as his eyebrows every second he turns SSJ3. It is incredible how many people are unfairly treating SSJ4 because of "clothes". The characters literally have the power to revert back into a humanoid form. It would not be all too crazy to for the writers to bring up something along the line of "reshaping matter so even clothes can be materialized out of energy and all" thing. Yes it is not mentioned and that is silly. But it is even sillier to think SSJ4 is that super silly exception.
And YES, SSJ4 is not a Super Saiyajin form. It is not a part of these transformations and only named that because the name easily sticks to one's mind.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Hair is a part of the body. Clothes, you know, aren't.
If you want just attribute it to something stupid like the clothes beam. Fusion dance materialize a jacket. Potara earrings brought back classic Vegito look despite Vegeta's gi being torn. Bergamo's clothing got bigger when he transformed into a giant. Ribrianne too. Same with Oozaru transformations and all movie characters that had giant transformations.
It's a kid show where logic and consistency rarely applies. Also censorship rules mean they don't want someone fighting naked (good choice imo).
Nightmare Wheel wrote:[
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Hair is a part of the body. Clothes, you know, aren't.
Yes it is a fair comparison and it was SO obvious that one would come up with that just so something "not from GT" could be defended. It does not matter in the slightest if it is a part of his body. He can instantaneously grow that and instantaneously make it disappear. It is incredibly irrelevant whether it is a part of him. To justify that one would also need to come up with a far-fetched - and at time inofficial - explanation about something like "oh yeah, cellular stimulation, the hair's roots are controlled on such a core level that it is stimulated that much it will rapidly force the body to grow or lose the hair". There is no difference that it is something organic. Yes, you "can explain it with his body". Wow. The amount of silly bending it needs to explain it is not less comparable to the clothes though. Acting like "magic dance = clothes" or something along the line of what I said like "those characters are so strong they at this point could have learned matter conversion" is so "plausible" that saying one is more silly than the other, really thinking that in a show were people can do whatever they want and EVEN MORE, that "regrowing and losing hair" on a level that they also should not just be able to do is any more better than the other thing that needs as much stretching, is hypocritical. And let's not forget this is Dragon Ball. I am not even close to having started. This is just one thing.
However, bein hypocritical is what suits fans the most very often.
And ekrolo I purposely did not mention the Fusion because people will always argue against it.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
Obviously yes, I thought it was a brilliant concept for new transformation, bringing back the neglected/forgotten ape/Oozaru aspect of the saiyans into the spotlight. The name is unfportunate though, it's really an Oozaru morph line so yeah.
And of course we can argue about the individual specific designs. Out of all the official SSJ4 forms, I think it's quite clear that Gogeta's SSJ4 is the best aesthetically (and aged the best too). Very good colors choices for the furr that fit the outfit as well. Vegeta doesn't look bad either, but his clothes are just a mess. Goku's pinkish shade of furr could be done with but it's not ugly either (SSG's magneta shade of pink-violet-red is way way uglier and heavier on the eyes)
Hopefully it gets reintroduced into the 'canon' in the same way Broly's form got in Super
No,but that's probably because I did not like the oozaru concept even before saiyan was at thing.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Cetra wrote:
And Goku loses and regrows his 1,5m long hair as well as his eyebrows every second he turns SSJ3. It is incredible how many people are unfairly treating SSJ4 because of "clothes". The characters literally have the power to revert back into a humanoid form. It would not be all too crazy to for the writers to bring up something along the line of "reshaping matter so even clothes can be materialized out of energy and all" thing. Yes it is not mentioned and that is silly. But it is even sillier to think SSJ4 is that super silly exception.
And YES, SSJ4 is not a Super Saiyajin form. It is not a part of these transformations and only named that because the name easily sticks to one's mind.
Nobody cares about magic clothing when the fusion dance happens even though it makes no sense for the dance to give you clothes from an entirely different species. And no, just because its a Metamoran technique doesn't explain anything, does Goku grow Kaio's clothes when he uses the Kaio-Ken or Spirit Bomb? Does Vegeta grow the Turtle School gi when he uses the Kienzan? They're from different species too.
But Fusion has its own clothing that comes with the transformation. Vegeta's leather pants are part of that transformation forever! If the form had its own clothes that were different than the clothing they wore the first time they achieved SSJ4, than that is different.
Comparing Fusion's magical clothing to SSJ4's is like comparing apples to oranges.
The Potara fusion make senses; it combines the clothing of the people who make up the fused being, the dance just gives you completely different clothing just because too and nobody seems to give a crap about that. I also don't get how your point of fusion having its own clothes isn't the same as 4 doing the same, they're both bullshit magic clothing but for some reason 4 is the horrible monstrosity of the two.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
It's a weird line because it is pseudo-mystical, but it's also pseudo-genetic. I have a much easier time buying a transformation that changes someone's hair than causes them to magically grow clothes.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
For Fusion, I can understand why they grow clothes... I mean, do two people fuse and they come out naked once together?
But an ascension transformation like SSJ is never shown to have magical clothes when transformed. Plus, the clothing generated is the things they were wearing in the first place. Fusion dance has its own established fact that whomever fuses always gets that costume along with it, which is something that has remained constant and I can get behind that. Potara may suffer the same problem as SSJ4 honestly...
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada
As I follow the "less is more" line of thought, no, I don't like Super Saiyan 4. But since we're talking about a transformation that, despite the (convenient) name, is not related to the Super Saiyan transformations, and so I must not see it as a legit Super Saiyan form, I'm particularly indifferent to the form. I somewhat like it on Gogeta, GT Gohan and Bardock but on the other users it is just "meh".
• We help! ... Hmm. Always get Autobots out of messes they get into. •
Attitudefan wrote:For Fusion, I can understand why they grow clothes... I mean, do two people fuse and they come out naked once together?
But an ascension transformation like SSJ is never shown to have magical clothes when transformed. Plus, the clothing generated is the things they were wearing in the first place. Fusion dance has its own established fact that whomever fuses always gets that costume along with it, which is something that has remained constant and I can get behind that. Potara may suffer the same problem as SSJ4 honestly...
Erm, no? The potara fusion makes sense, the fusion character gets the clothing of his counterparts mish mashed together, the dance just creates a completely new set of clothing because reasons. Just like how 4 does it but 4s the problematic one.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Super Saiyan 4 was always one of my favorite forms and honestly, it might be my favorite. I love how it really calls back to the fact that Saiyans are an apes/monkey-type race. The fact that they bring the tail back pleases me to no end; I always preferred the Saiyans and Half-Saiyans with tails. I remember hearing that Toriyama got "tired of" drawing them though I'm unsure how true that it but it's a shame they were phased out. One of my favorite images of Goku is his adult form in the final GT ending with the power pole and tail, waving to the camera.
I think the differences of the transformation are actually a strength. It gave it a finality feeling, being so different from the previous transformations. It also felt like a transformation that only Saiyans or select Half-Saiyans (those born with tails) could reach which gave it limits that the other transformations lost over the years; I doubt it would be achievable beyond a 1/2 Saiyan because the bloodline would be too thin. Goku's first transformation into it was epic and I do love how the mindlessness of the Ape is still an issue that they have to overcome.
As for the colors of the fur? Honestly, I always contributed that to simple genetics--one Saiyan would look one way, one another and yet they would still look similar enough to tell it's the same transformation. So, for example, if Gohan were to eventually achieve the transformation, he would likely look similar to Goku's shade whereas if any of Vegeta's children could achieve it (which I doubt, given their lack of tail but I digress) they would resemble Vegeta more. I call it random pick, like hair color and eye color. Does it make sense? Not really but frankly, sometimes genetics don't seem to make sense.
The clothing appearing is a bit odd but I can overlook it. If Fusion can create its own unique clothes then I'm okay with Super Saiyan 4 doing the same thing. Do I feel they could have designed the clothes a little better? Yeah, probably but I don't hate them.
We truly begin to live when we find something we're willing to die for
I just don't like that it's called Super Saiyan 4, when its like entirely different from the other super saiyan forms, and isn't an advancement of Super Saiyan 3.
I think I would have preferred if SSJ4 kept the hair style, lost the fur and tail, and made the hair gold... like a refined and controlled version of the long and wild version of SSJ3.
Jackalope89 wrote:I like SSJ4. Always been my favorite transformation, and I had hoped it would be the God Form in Super when I first heard about it. To this day, I hope to see it implemented in say, the Xenoverse games as a viable transformation. Its unique, and would have been a cool, U7 only transformation. If any of the U7 Saiyans still had tails, that is.
Seeing that screen grab kinda makes me thankful that they didn't use the form in Super - they look awful there.
