In my opinion, after the Namek arc, DBZ was a let down

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In my opinion, after the Namek arc, DBZ was a let down

Post by Lujin_16 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:02 am

The beginning of dbz was great with the saiyans story and of course i love the namek arc because the atmosphere was so different and dark i really cared
about characters like Gohan/Krilin/Namekians..After that it was just a power up and exaggerated bodybuilder show not that Dragonball Z anymore from
the beginning just my opinion :) What do you think?? You agree or not ???

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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:19 am

I agree. I rewatched the Namek/Freeza arc recently as part of my "Personal Assessment" of Dragon Ball Z, and it's not aged well. The 1/3 of the arc is fantastic, the 2/3 feels a lot like padding and the final third has great moments but the ending is botched in some areas.

I'll go into detail about this in another thread very soon.

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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:45 am

I can see what you mean. There was a really deep story for the first two arcs. Some might argue that Trunks's and the Cyborgs' stories were deep, but I wouldn't argue it compared to the Saiyan/Freeza story. And through Cell and Boo, the story does get weaker and weaker. As for the power-ups and whatnot, I see what you mean, but that seemed like a natural progression for the series. It just built upon what happened in the Saiyan and Namek arcs. I kind of looked at Dragon Ball as one progressing story and never really separated them into individual arcs. That's why to me, I was a fan of the concept in general, a fan of following my favorite characters through their lives and whatnot. To me, that was the story just as much as the baddies' motivations.

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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:55 am

Agreed. The Freeza arc felt like an organic place to end the story as the character arcs felt complete by that point. The later arcs have lots of good stuff but aren't as successful. The fights aren't typically as good and the big bads aren't as interesting as what came before.
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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by sintzu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:13 pm

I think it got better with Cell and Trunks being introduced and even better with Vegeta's character arc in the Buu arc (among other things in both). DB ending with Buu was the perfect way to go as everything by then truly got a conclusion.
ABED wrote:Agreed. The Freeza arc felt like an organic place to end the story as the character arcs felt complete by that point. The later arcs have lots of good stuff but aren't as successful. The fights aren't typically as good and the big bads aren't as interesting as what came before.
We hadn't seen what Gohan's hidden power was.

We didn't get a resolution to Piccolo and Kami's differences.

Vegeta was alive on earth capable of doing god knows what.

Goku was missing in space.
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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm

sintzu wrote:I think it got better with Cell and Trunks being introduced and even better with Vegeta's character arc in the Buu arc (among other things in both). DB ending with Buu was the perfect way to go as everything by then truly got a conclusion.
ABED wrote:Agreed. The Freeza arc felt like an organic place to end the story as the character arcs felt complete by that point. The later arcs have lots of good stuff but aren't as successful. The fights aren't typically as good and the big bads aren't as interesting as what came before.
We hadn't seen what Gohan's hidden power was.

We didn't get a resolution to Piccolo and Kami's differences.

Vegeta was alive on earth capable of doing god knows what.

Goku was missing in space.
There would have to be SOME changes. I'm not saying it would end the EXACT same way, but it wouldn't take that much longer to tie up the loose ends. Kami and Piccolo's resolution doesn't have to involve them merging again and it wouldn't have to take that long. And Gohan's hidden power is always being released. It's annoying how often that was used as a plot point. It was successfully resolved in the Saiyan arc when he gains the courage to fight Vegeta. He had power, what he lacked was the bravery.

A big problem for me in the later arcs is just the scale. It's not shown. We know Cell and Buu are stronger because other characters say they are, but it's not demonstrated in some way, and I'm not saying it's a matter of showing one character beat up another. When I say demonstrated, I mean for example when Goku and Kuririn are able to move a bigger and bigger rock. We SEE them grow stronger. It's not stated in exposition.
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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:22 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:Agreed. The Freeza arc felt like an organic place to end the story as the character arcs felt complete by that point. The later arcs have lots of good stuff but aren't as successful. The fights aren't typically as good and the big bads aren't as interesting as what came before.
We hadn't seen what Gohan's hidden power was.

We didn't get a resolution to Piccolo and Kami's differences.

Vegeta was alive on earth capable of doing god knows what.

Goku was missing in space.
Gohan had is potential unlocked by Grand Elder so that is a non-issue. Vegeta should and probably would have stayed dead if it were to end there. That death should have stuck it was a perfect end for Vegeta's character, likely there would have been some resolution to Goku. The ending of the Freeza arc would have been slightly different and easily workable if Toriyama wanted to end it there, it obviously wouldn't have been 1:1.

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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by sintzu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:26 pm

ABED wrote:There would have to be SOME changes.
You could do that with any arc though. If Vegeta dies on earth and Freeza isn't introduced then you can end it there with Namek being a mini arc just to revive everyone.
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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:32 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:There would have to be SOME changes.
You could do that with any arc though. If Vegeta dies on earth and Freeza isn't introduced then you can end it there with Namek being a mini arc just to revive everyone.
True, but with with all their friends dead, I still think you would have to dramatize it beyond a simple montage or a small arc of them gathering the DB's on Namek without issue. Also, Goku doesn't defeat Vegeta. He does a great job, but sees that he's ultimately out of his depth, even before Vegeta turns Great Ape. So there's still more story to tell. Freeza is set up as the biggest bad of them all. Kaio even calls him something akin to "the root of evil". There's a feeling of finality to it given how tied Freeza is to both Vegeta and Goku's past.
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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by Wezenheim » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:34 pm

Although I wouldn't completely disagree with anyone who thought that everything after Freeza was unnecessary, I also couldn't bring myself to get rid of Cell and Boo. There's more than enough great, iconic material post-Freeza to justify its own existence. Did the series decline over time? Maybe. Still, thematically, I like the ending we got in the Boo arc, perhaps even more so than any of the other places fans would've liked the story to stop.

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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by sintzu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 pm

Wezenheim wrote:I couldn't bring myself to get rid of Cell and Boo. There's more than enough great, iconic material post-Freeza to justify its own existence.
Exactly. The androids, Cell, Trunks, Gohan's ssj2 & Mystic forms, Piccolo, Majin and super Vegeta, the multiple buus, fusions, Goku's final genkidama, etc. There's so much greatness in each of those arcs I could write an entire topic about each one.
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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:45 pm

Honestly, I kinda have to agree that the franchise takes a bit of a down turn around the early parts of Z. By that point, the show had been running for nearly 5 years, and the manga had been serialised for a little longer than that. While Dragon Ball generally went through a ton of different moods and styles across everything up to the Saiyan arc, everything from the Saiyan arc until the Boo arc got started could be described pretty easily as a kinda dark sci-fi action show.
It's a bit samey, and honestly I think the plots are fairly basic. The stuff going on with the characters is pretty engaging, but ultimately, I think the right choice was made in ending the manga at the Boo arc. Toei did an admirable job at fighting off seasonal rot by taking such a different approach with GT(Granted, it took them like 10 episodes to realise they should start taking it in a new direction, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯), but as we see with Super, Toriyama isn't really interested in taking Dragon Ball in any new directions.

I do like Z, but compared to how creative and varied in style, plot, and overall feel Dragon Ball had been up to the Namek arc, the Z stuff from about the midpoint of the Namek arc does feel a bit samey in comparison to what came before. The Boo arc shakes things up nicely, and I could probably write entire paragraphs about how brilliant Boo himself is as an antagonist, but the arc overall pretty much completely falls off the rails once Super Boo absorbs Gohan.
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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by precita » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:15 pm

While the series had a natural ending with Namek, the Cell and Buu arcs have too much good stuff for me to wish they didn't exist.

Oddly enough Super takes DBZ's problems and dials them up to 11. If people thought power levels or new Saiyan transformations in Buu were out of control, wait till they see Super.

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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:25 pm

precita wrote:While the series had a natural ending with Namek, the Cell and Buu arcs have too much good stuff for me to wish they didn't exist.

Oddly enough Super takes DBZ's problems and dials them up to 11. If people thought power levels or new Saiyan transformations in Buu were out of control, wait till they see Super.
I don't see how ending it at Namek would have been natural. Goku just gets blown up on Namek?

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Re: In my opinion, after the Namek arc, DBZ was a let down

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:30 pm

I didn't say end it literally on Namek. Porunga tells everyone that Goku is alive at the end of the arc.
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Re: In my opinion after the namek arc dbz was a let down

Post by sintzu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:32 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
precita wrote:While the series had a natural ending with Namek, the Cell and Buu arcs have too much good stuff for me to wish they didn't exist.

Oddly enough Super takes DBZ's problems and dials them up to 11. If people thought power levels or new Saiyan transformations in Buu were out of control, wait till they see Super.
I don't see how ending it at Namek would have been natural. Goku just gets blown up on Namek?
Who say it should've ended on Namek also say things would've needed to be changed for it to work which means it isn't a natural ending point or otherwise you wouldn't need to change anything. If you change any part of an arc to work as an ending then it'll work as an ending. If Krillin never died at the end of the 22nd Tenkaichi and instead things ended with Roshi and Tien's masters making up and passing on their training and everything to the next gen who were Goku, Tien, Krillin, etc. then that would've been a better ending than what we got.

Would DB be better off without the 2 piccolo arcs and Z's arcs ? Hell no.
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Re: In my opinion, after the Namek arc, DBZ was a let down

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:17 pm

To be honest, I think as far as a consistent story goes, Dragon Ball peaked in the Saiyan arc. As I said before, the Namek/Freeza starts off great but loses its unique narrative as the story goes on.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Namek arc, DBZ was a let down

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:36 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:To be honest, I think as far as a consistent story goes, Dragon Ball peaked in the Saiyan arc. As I said before, the Namek/Freeza starts off great but loses its unique narrative as the story goes on.
Care to go deeper on that point? How does it lose its uniqueness?
If you change any part of an arc to work as an ending then it'll work as an ending. If Krillin never died at the end of the 22nd Tenkaichi and instead things ended with Roshi and Tien's masters making up and passing on their training and everything to the next gen who were Goku, Tien, Krillin, etc. then that would've been a better ending than what we got.
No, but there's a big difference from a few tweaks vs. big narrative and structural changes.

At the end of the Freeza arc, Piccolo is a full on good guy, Gohan's potential has been brought out several times and his character arc is complete, the whole Z Team is brought back, and Goku is still alive. The most you would need is a slightly longer coda. The same can't be said of the Vegeta arc or the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.
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Re: In my opinion, after the Namek arc, DBZ was a let down

Post by GamerSkull » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:55 pm

I agree that Namek should have been the last story arc... with some tweaks done at the end to make it more of a conclusion.

I don't hate the Cell and Buu arcs but they are my least favorite and there are a lot of things that happen in those that leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I think Namek should have ended pretty much exactly the same... except maybe Vegeta shouldn't have come back since I thought his death was a great conclusion to his character. If Vegeta did come back to life, than perhaps he just leaves for good and knows that it might be too risky to come back because Earth will always have a protector to stop him.

Other than that, most everything could be pretty much the same with a final montage or chapter of Goku returning and rejoicing with his friends.
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Re: In my opinion, after the Namek arc, DBZ was a let down

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:31 pm

Freeza is probably where DB gets uninteresting to me. Like I love DB + Saiyan, I can still read/watch them and love them, but jeez, after that DB just becomes a drag. Boo is ok, but not really a huge fan.
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