CG animated series

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Michsi
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CG animated series

Post by Michsi » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:52 am

I can't believe I'm even considering this, because I love 2D animation more than anything, but dammit, FighterZ has got me thinking.

3D animation replacing the traditional one has always been a nightmare scenario for me, but it seems we may have found the middle-ground that could bring us the best of both worlds, namely 2.5D .

The only reason I'm bringing this up is because Super has been plagued with animation and visual blunders, and while I'd prefer the 2D animation to be improved upon, if that's not possible, I'd accept the transition to 2.5, as long as it looks as good as what FighterZ is doing. With the exception of a few scenes where they look pretty off-model, the characters look great. I mean, when you get the chance, look at some clips involving Freeza, because WOW

Toei is no stranger to this type of animation and they've been dabbling in CG series for a while now, with Kado: the right answer being their latest attempt. The most glaring issue here being that while it looks great as far as expression and light movement goes, cinematic fight choreography leaves something to be desired, as Kado has also proven. Since DB is all about fighting, that's a huge minus.

Anyway, I'm curious what others think. "Ok" or "blasphemy"?

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Re: CG animated series

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:01 am

Michsi wrote:3D animation replacing the traditional one has always been a nightmare scenario for me, but it seems we may have found the middle-ground that could bring us the best of both worlds, namely 2.5D.
Okay, I'm gonna go on a bit of a tirade here, and I wanna say in advance that this isn't an attack on you, nor is it trying to lay down an opinion on whether or not a CG animated show would work and be good or not as far as doing it to Dragon Ball would go. This is just for clearing misconceptions and laying down the right perspective.

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The thing about 2.5D is that it's a very deceptive term. It is not 2D put in 3D space; that would be the Beerus fight in the city of Battle of Gods, or The Final Chapters opening. 2.5D is actually just 3D with a restrictive camera. In particular, 2.5D is a term that can really only be applied to gameplay, where the camera is viewed from side-on and the characters can only move on the X and Y axis in a 3D space. So the idea that a show can be made in 2.5D is a bit silly, as that would basically mean it'd look like 8-Bit Theatre, or Ctrl+Alt+Del circa 2005.

When it comes to FighterZ, the way that it looks so similar to the show is that Arcs System Works just plain puts a lot more effort into recreating the cel-shaded look of modern anime than Dimps does. It comes down to basically doing everything frame by frame. The animations are done in a dynamic but limited fashion, for starters. For example, when Vegeta points his thumb at himself after winning a match, it stops on a dime. It's completely unrealistic from an animation standpoint, but it's exactly the sort of thing done in 2D anime animation. They are also animated at a much lower frame rate to mimic how anime is typically drawn at 12 frames per second (a bit like what the Lego movies do for that stop-motion look in CG). On top of that, the lighting is adjusted frame-by-frame in the cutscenes. And if that wasn't enough, the models themselves are adjusted frame-by-frame to match how anime looks and help make the lighting work (to give flatter faces, for example, or enlarge the fists when they get close to the camera). It's all a lot of work but is absolutely nessecary to help pull off the 2D look to the degree that FighterZ does. If you don't, it looks like Xenoverse's models, which is a very different result than FighterZ:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Basically, to make it look that way you need to put in a lot of work for the art, but there's just no time or money for that in the anime business today.

If you want to have an idea of what went into making FighterZ look the way it is, check out the link below where Arc's Technical Artist goes over how they achieved this in the first game to feature these techniques, Guilty Gear Xrd, back in 2015. The talk itself is about half an hour but it's so insightful as to how Arc pulled off FighterZ and made it look the way it did.

https://youtu.be/yhGjCzxJV3E?t=203

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Re: CG animated series

Post by Michsi » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:17 am

KBABZ wrote:
Basically, to make it look that way you need to put in a lot of work for the art, but there's just no time or money for that in the anime business today.
Except for the fact that they have already done it, with Kado. Toei is already looking into this animation style, probably more so than any other traditional animation studio.

I'm well aware that it's actually completely CG made to look like 2D, which is absolutely fine by me since what I care about is the final product. I have no doubt in my mind that there's a tone of work behind this animation method, but the same goes for traditional animation as well. There's ups and downs where both are concerned, but my question was more related to how open people would be to the idea of them switching to CG fully.

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Re: CG animated series

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:07 am

Michsi wrote:my question was more related to how open people would be to the idea of them switching to CG fully.
100% hard no for almost anyone who walks in here is my guess.

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Re: CG animated series

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:07 am

Kado is just nicely done cell shaded 3D animation. I'd rather we didn't get another Berserk.

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Re: CG animated series

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:23 am

The recent 4d short films could be what it would like. Any opinions on that?

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Re: CG animated series

Post by Michsi » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:37 am

KBABZ wrote:
Michsi wrote:my question was more related to how open people would be to the idea of them switching to CG fully.
100% hard no for almost anyone who walks in here is my guess.
I was also part of the 'hard no' club until recently. Now I'm more with 'mmmmyeahh, maybe?' crowd
mute_proxy wrote:Kado is just nicely done cell shaded 3D animation. I'd rather we didn't get another Berserk.
*shudders* That should go without saying.
dbgtFO wrote:The recent 4d short films could be what it would like. Any opinions on that?
If it's what I think you mean, then no, that didn't look good at all IMO. Rather stick with the 2D animated clip of that.

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Re: CG animated series

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:26 pm

Count me on the "FK Yeah! Bring the CG" crowd.

I'd totally want that, even better if they can use a similar style like DBFighterZ.
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Re: CG animated series

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:39 pm

Xenoverse 2 had gorgeous CG animated scenes, so with the right direction, a CG animated Dragon Ball series or movie could look absolutely stunning.

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Re: CG animated series

Post by sintzu » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:23 pm

A movie might be done correctly but a show would most likely be a complete mess so hopefully they stick to 2D.
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Re: CG animated series

Post by Super Sayian Prime » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:45 pm

Toei is working on a CG Saint Seiya series for Netflix. Use that as your barometer for how well Dragon Ball would look.

Mazinger Z: Infinity is one of the better blended CG/hand-drawn titles, but that's a theatrical film.
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Re: CG animated series

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:51 pm

Imagine if this upcoming film was full CG? We literally know nothing about it, BoG had a bit of CG, RF a bit more it's only the next logical step...

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Re: CG animated series

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:53 pm

I personally abhor the aesthetics of CG animation, outside of video games. I don't know why, I don't know what it is. Maybe it just feels a little uncanny valley to me, I'm not sure.

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Re: CG animated series

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:01 pm

I am a big fan of hand-drawn animation and would rather see DB done in that format forever. But I suppose in the future, Dragon Ball will get a new saga or maybe a retelling in CGI. That's progress.

I can see its appeal, it allows for scenes with great movement/lighting.

I think that CGI is slowly evolving to the point where it can reasonably render Toriyama's artwork, as DB video games have shown.
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Re: CG animated series

Post by Michsi » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:05 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Xenoverse 2 had gorgeous CG animated scenes, so with the right direction, a CG animated Dragon Ball series or movie could look absolutely stunning.

It looks good, but somehow it doesn't quite make me at ease should it replace traditional animation like FighterZ does. But it is impressive as far as action goes, which was one of my worries when it comes to CG
Super Saiyan Prime wrote:Toei is working on a CG Saint Seiya series for Netflix. Use that as your barometer for how well Dragon Ball would look.
.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Let's see how they'll do.

For the record, I prefer a well-done 2D animation over anything, but if we can't have that, I'd take 2.D looking CG as an alternative.

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Re: CG animated series

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:06 pm

Zephyr wrote:I personally abhor the aesthetics of CG animation, outside of video games. I don't know why, I don't know what it is. Maybe it just feels a little uncanny valley to me, I'm not sure.
On TV it's almost always because there isn't enough time or money to make it look as good as in films. Anime in particular can never seem to be done right, at least until FighterZ (which I know isn't a show but HOT DAMN does it nail the look!).

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Re: CG animated series

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:10 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I personally abhor the aesthetics of CG animation, outside of video games. I don't know why, I don't know what it is. Maybe it just feels a little uncanny valley to me, I'm not sure.
On TV it's almost always because there isn't enough time or money to make it look as good as in films
I honestly don't care for it in films, either.

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Re: CG animated series

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:14 pm

Zephyr wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I personally abhor the aesthetics of CG animation, outside of video games. I don't know why, I don't know what it is. Maybe it just feels a little uncanny valley to me, I'm not sure.
On TV it's almost always because there isn't enough time or money to make it look as good as in films
I honestly don't care for it in films, either.
As someone who works at a VFX studio, this makes me very sad. : (

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Re: CG animated series

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:31 pm

KBABZ wrote:As someone who works at a VFX studio, this makes me very sad. : (
Hey, it's nothing personal! I just can't get into it.

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Re: CG animated series

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:51 pm

Zephyr wrote:
KBABZ wrote:As someone who works at a VFX studio, this makes me very sad. : (
Hey, it's nothing personal! I just can't get into it.
Heh, no worries dude. It is very easy to screw up that sort of thing.

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