Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:19 am

ABED wrote:Not neccessarily. A charcter doesn't have to be a good guy or do good things to be found enjoyable.

I'm sure there are plenty of people whose favorite iteration of Vegeta is when he was a straight up villain. The reason I find Goku so enjoyable in the 23rd TB is in part because he is so driven to win the tournament despite the stakes. He doesn't want outside interference even when all of his limbs have been broken. He's near death and yet he still tells everyone he doesn't want their aid. Then after the battle he lets Piccolo go because he wants someone to keep him on his toes. Both choices are morally questionable at best. Goku's obsessive nature is interesting to me.
We've already established that. But that doesn't apply to everyone, including the people here who mentioned Cell Goku as their least favorite version of the character. The first person to start this line of debate clearly stated why he disliked Goku in the Cell saga and the reasons were understandable. There's not two ways about this. People usually don't like shitty behavior.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:41 am

We haven't been down that road because you don't seem to get that a character doesn't have to be likable to be interesting. You've said contradictory things on this issue. You bring up liking characters that aren't goody two shoes, but then you say things like "And these two are connected....like, inherently so." But it's not true. If it were, no one would like villains. At best, it's a corrolation, not causation. I wouldn't be going out on a limb to say that enjoying characters who aren't goody goods is not a rarity.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:25 am

ABED wrote:We haven't been down that road because you don't seem to get that a character doesn't have to be likable to be interesting. You've said contradictory things on this issue. You bring up liking characters that aren't goody two shoes, but then you say things like "And these two are connected....like, inherently so." But it's not true. If it were, no one would like villains. At best, it's a corrolation, not causation. I wouldn't be going out on a limb to say that enjoying characters who aren't goody goods is not a rarity.
Where have I contradicted myself? I'm genuinely curious. I have never denied that you can find a shitty character interesting, I do it too, just that is more than reasonable and understandable for others to not like said character for said shittyness. It's just basic common sense.
You seem to take your personal criteria of what makes a character interesting and enjoyable as something that everyone should apply.

To make things even clearer - I like Goku in those scenes, yet I completely understand why someone would not.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:39 am

I do so many time, just that is more than reasonable and understandable for others to not like said character for said shittyness. It's just basic common sense.
But the question isn't about whether the character is likable.
You seem to take your personal criteria of what makes a character interesting and enjoyable as something that everyone should apply.
Not at all. Everyone has a different hierarchy, but I don't think anyone truly finds the most ethical character is the most interesting BECAUSE they are ethical. There can be a corrolations, but not causation, because there are too many other criteria used in evaluating them. Judging a character is inherently different than judging a person.
Where have I contradicted myself? I'm genuinely curious.
Reread the third sentence of the post you quoted. That's the contradiction. There is no inherent connection between how interesting/enjoyable a character is and how ethical they are. Yes, some will put greater importance on ethics when judging if they enjoy a character but they aren't inherently connected. I do think context is important. If you go into DB evaluating the characters through a superhero lens, I think it's the wrong way to look at it.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:55 am

ABED wrote:But the question isn't about whether the character is likable.
Jeez, not this again. It is, favorite-' the version you enjoy the most.' It's so obvious most see the topic like this and they gave their two cents regarding their least favorite. What is so complicated about that.
]Not at all. Everyone has a different hierarchy,
Then why do you take issue with others not liking Goku for the reasons you find interesting?
connection between the two. Yes, some will put greater importance on ethics when judging if they enjoy a character but they aren't inherently connecte
And I say they are. This isn't to say that one liking a villain like Freeza means they're a psychopath or something like that, or that the favorite character is a reflection of what the fan is like, if that's the underlying issue you've been getting at.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:07 pm

Jeez, not this again. It is, favorite-' the version you enjoy the most.' It's so obvious most see the topic like this and they gave their two cents regarding their least favorite. What is so complicated about that.
Yes, this again because you don't seem to get the point. If the senzu thing is something you find morally objectionable, Goku has done far worse. If you are correct, Goku giving Cell a senzu results in 16's death. Goku lets Vegeta go in order to get a rematch and Vegeta slaughters a village of innocent Namekians, including children. I see him getting crap for the former A LOT, the latter, not so much. Sometimes I do, but not a lot.
Then why do you take issue with others not liking Goku for the reasons you find interesting?
I don't. What I do find odd is when people either drop context OR hold something against a character at one point, but not another even if it's the same thing. I also find it odd that anyone would place the most importance on how ethical a character is when evaluating a fictional characters. What we look for in fiction is inherently different than what we look for in real life.
And I say they are.
If it were, no one would like villains.
if that's the underlying issue you've been getting at.
No, not at all and I don't see how anything I wrote would imply that.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:20 pm

There are two that stand out to me:

1) Universe Survival arc
Most likely because his behavior in Zen Exhibition Matches and whenever he uses Ultra Instinct in the Tournament.

2) Pre-Cell Games Goku
I like how he kept his SSJ form activated 24/7 and couldn't be more calm. Everyone wonders what's going on in his head, but he knew everything would turn out alright despite being weaker than Cell.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:27 pm

ABED wrote:
Jeez, not this again. It is, favorite-' the version you enjoy the most.' It's so obvious most see the topic like this and they gave their two cents regarding their least favorite. What is so complicated about that.
Yes, this again because you don't seem to get the point. If the senzu thing is something you find morally objectionable, Goku has done far worse. If you are correct, Goku giving Cell a senzu results in 16's death. Goku lets Vegeta go in order to get a rematch and Vegeta slaughters a village of innocent Namekians, including children. I see him getting crap for the former A LOT, the latter, not so much. Sometimes I do, but not a lot.
.
I don't see you in the Super thread, but Goku's recklessness is being discussed there a lot. With Gohan it's just more personal and upfront, since we see the consequences right away and they happen to a main character. It's just more visceral.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:10 pm

Fair enough about it being more visceral, but the consequences weren't worse. I think another thing to keep in mind is the Saiyan arc is much better recieved than pretty much anything in Super, so I don't think people are as apt to pick things like this apart. Goku has a history of morally questionable behavior but judging him primarily on that criterion is something I find ridiculous. What about how interesting the internal and external conflicts are or how he contributes to the story? Is he more active, or is he relegated to saving the day? Does he learn a lesson? Does he progress or regress?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:11 pm

Doctor. wrote:stuff and things
I have a feeling this is going to be an discussion that will go in circles so I think it would be best to agree to disagree on this matter. If you saw more in Goku's characterization in the Freeza, then more power to you. But from my reading of Dragon Ball, the story with regards to Goku's characterisation in the Freeza arc, and specifically his battle with Freeza, never becomes a deep as some people want to interpret to be. In my perspective, I felt the writing of Goku in Freeza arc felt too arbitrary for my liking. He makes it clear from the get-to that he wants to kill Freeza, then it escalates with him wanting to prevent Freeza from powering up to his maximum strength, then in the next chapter, despite previously charging right at Freeza to prevent him from powering up, he changes his mind, decides he does want to fight Freeza at his strongest and wants to fight Freeza at full power because he's become a warrior of rage (even though that is not what he's supposed to be). Then he quits the battle and leaves Freeza alive (despite stating he wanted to destroy Freeza), only to come back and try to kill Freeza with his own attack in two separate occasions. Then he tries to aid Freeza in preventing him from getting injured from his own attack by telling him to stay down. Goku's indecisive attitude when it comes to how he want Freeza's fate to be decided just come across as haphazard writing to me. If you see more in it than I do, then that's great. To me though, it's unsatisfactory.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:19 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:snip

We've gone over this already and I told you you're simply misinterpreting what Goku is saying and what his motivations are. The whole "destroy" thing is a translation issue. I'm no expert in Japanese, but from what I understand, Goku uses "ぶったおす" (buttaosu) before Super Saiyan, which means "knock down"; Simmons translated "おめえをぶったおす" to "I am going to beat you" in the Z anime, if I'm not mistaken, but if you want confirmation I can get a screenshot if you give me the time. It's after the Super Saiyan transformation that he starts using more aggressive terms like "滅ぼす" (horobosu, meaning "destroy"). Feel free not to take my word for it, because I'm not an expert like I said, so go ahead and ask anyone who knows Japanese (or anyone reading this with knowledge on the language feel free to chime in). I don't want to get hung up on translations and semantics, but I feel like it's important since Goku's wording is the root of your issue.

Furthermore, you claim that "that's not what he's supposed to be [a warrior of rage]" using, as an example, the page where Goku literally says he's a warrior of rage and powers-up in anger. Kaio doesn't say Goku wants to fight Freeza specifically because he's a warrior of rage like you're implying. He says Goku is a warrior of rage as a way to tell the audience Goku's demeanor has changed. And you keep using Goku baiting Freeza into dodging the Kienzan as a way to prove that he's being inconsistently written even though his strategy is baiting Freeza into dodging (which he does). Do you think Toriyama isn't capable of writing a character consistently for 20 pages? Just seems like you're trying to find problems where there are none.
Last edited by Doctor. on Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:24 pm

In the heat of the moment, Goku has wanted to kill a number of people, but as he calms down, even during the battle, he changes his mind. So his characterization isn't being inconsistent. And he doesn't want to fight Freeza at his full power because he's a warrior of rage, he wants to fight him at his best because he wants a challenge. That's always been true of Goku. One thing I think is consistent about Goku is he doesn't want to kill people. Even someone who wants to kill him. He'll do it in the heat of the moment or if someone poses an immediate threat, but by the time the Freeza fight is winding down, Goku is in far better shape than Freeza is. Goku hasn't lost much strength whereas Freeza is losing it by the second. There's no point in it anymore. The same thing happened against Tao Pai Pai. First he wanted revenge for Bora's death, but after the tide turned in Goku's favor, he tries to let him leave.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:39 pm

ABED wrote:In the heat of the moment, Goku has wanted to kill a number of people, but as he calms down, even during the battle, he changes his mind. So his characterization isn't being inconsistent. And he doesn't want to fight Freeza at his full power because he's a warrior of rage, he wants to fight him at his best because he wants a challenge. That's always been true of Goku. One thing I think is consistent about Goku is he doesn't want to kill people. Even someone who wants to kill him. He'll do it in the heat of the moment or if someone poses an immediate threat, but by the time the Freeza fight is winding down, Goku is in far better shape than Freeza is. Goku hasn't lost much strength whereas Freeza is losing it by the second. There's no point in it anymore. The same thing happened against Tao Pai Pai. First he wanted revenge for Bora's death, but after the tide turned in Goku's favor, he tries to let him leave.
I feel like he didn't actually have much of a care of whether someone lives or dies when he was a kid. At least, he doesn't actively care for his opponent's life in the same way he does as an adult. I also like to think he learned his lesson after Freeza, considering he repeatedly tells Gohan to kill Cell even though Cell was more-or-less in the same situation as Freeza was when he tried to spare his life. But, yes, I agree that he doesn't really like killing.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by KBABZ » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:49 pm

Sooooo can we get back to favourite iterations of Goku now?

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Forte224 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:04 am

KBABZ wrote:Sooooo can we get back to favourite iterations of Goku now?
No, a certain person and/or certain people is/are too busy being really nit picky and arguing until most likely the end of time.

But anyway, my favorite iteration has to be Red Ribbon arc Goku. So much fun, so naive yet so awesome.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by KBABZ » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:42 am

Forte224 wrote:my favorite iteration has to be Red Ribbon arc Goku. So much fun, so naive yet so awesome.
I agree, I put 22nd TB Goku for this and yet having mature battle tactics where he's realistic about who'll win (unlike Krillin). I think the RRA Arc Goku has a big advantage here because the vast majority of the arc is about him and his adventures simply because the rest of the Dragon Ball Gang doesn't appear until much later in the Baba Yaga Saga (as I like to call it). The Narrator's speech in the Son Goku song section after leaving Jingle Village (FUNi dub, obviously) sums up why I love Goku and this arc so much:
Having been reunited with his old friend the Flying Nimbus, Goku once again embarks on his journey into the unknown. And over every mountain he passes, over every ocean he crosses, Goku finds continual delight in the simple wonders of a world still very new to him.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by GamerSkull » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:17 am

I think I can agree with some of the people that have posted here that both the Red Ribbon Army Goku and the 22nd TB Goku are probably my favorite when it comes to Goku's representation in the DB arcs.

Man, I have the sudden urge to go back and watch the original Dragon Ball now.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Starscreacher » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:18 am

Dragon Ball Super Goku

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:31 am

It's curious to see RRA arc Goku among the favorite iteration. I love Goku as a kid, but I always felt he was just a bit too callous. While I haven't seen RRA arc in a long time, I seem to remember Goku having no problem offing his opponents. He develops a conscience later on, tough ironically, he's also far more careless as an adult than he was as a child.

I was always curious how GT's version of kid Goku compares the DB's kid Goku.

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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by KBABZ » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:12 am

Michsi wrote:It's curious to see RRA arc Goku among the favorite iteration. I love Goku as a kid, but I always felt he was just a bit too callous. While I haven't seen RRA arc in a long time, I seem to remember Goku having no problem offing his opponents. He develops a conscience later on, tough ironically, he's also far more careless as an adult than he was as a child.
Could you name any specific examples? The only one I can think of are the Muscle Tower opponents in Major Mettalitron and Buyon, one of which is a robot and the other is a vicious and un-negotiable robot, and the octopus in the Pirate Cave. There are a lot of RRA soldiers, but I don't recall any of them being outright killed; even Goku left Colonel Silver in a stunned state before leaving. I guess the main one would be Tao Pai-Pai, but IMO that was Tao's fault because Goku had no choice but to kick the grenade away; in a sense it's similar to Frieza where the villain gets himself killed by putting Goku in a corner with a cheap attack.

Kid Goku's mook kills later on would be Tambourine and Drum, both of which are like Buyon in that they are heartless monsters. I have no familiarity on the filler stuff.

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