Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
Yes, I believe that Goku's change was unintentional and unconscious as well. But there is definitely a change.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
Fleeing isn't the same as asking for mercy, and I didn't disregard your other examples.Michsi wrote:Because that is one of the clearest, most point blank pieces evidence of what I'm saying, and I thought the anime might have changed that a bit. Goku has no interest in fighting Black, he just wanted to get the Dragon Balls for Upa's father. Never said that Goku was a sociopath that killed whoever angered him, but he spared their lives 0 thought when it came to finishing them off. I repeat, he pursues someone that didn't want to fight anymore and causes their death. He is then happy he managed it.ABED wrote:
And why does it matter if I used the anime? For the record, I looked up the scene in the manga and it's as I wrote.
And then there is the Tambourine/Nappa comparison too. Disregard all of it if you want, but I think I have enough support from the story to keep believing that there is a change in Goku, whether that was the author's intention or not.
When he kills Freeza, he just killed the greatest opponent he's ever faced. Goku doesn't like killing strong opponents.
Your evidence is that he's changed except that HE hasn't changed, circumstances changed. No one has ever asked him for mercy to that point and actually meant it. You inferred the change. He doesn't celebrate Tao Pai Pai's death, either. He's happy that he is one step closer to bringing Bora back to life.
So, you think it's bad writing? That change, if there is one, wasn't dramatized.But there is definitely a change.
In the manga, that's flat out untrue. He's happy to have defeated Tao Pai Pai, but he was happy because he can now go after the DB's. Your argument that he's changed comes down to Freeza, but he's not sad or remorseful about killing Buu. Goku is inconsistent in his reactions, but there is no grand change in his personality.When he explodes, like with Tao Pai Pai, Goku looks on with glee.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
I don't see why the change has to necessarily be bad writing. It's a by-product of Toriyama writing weekly for years, his perception of his characters is going to change with time.ABED wrote:So, you think it's bad writing? That change, if there is one, wasn't dramatized.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
It's bad because you need to dramatize something like that, either the change or the impetus for the change. It's not the change itself that's bad, it's the lack of dramatization.Doctor. wrote:I don't see why the change has to necessarily be bad writing. It's a by-product of Toriyama writing weekly for years, his perception of his characters is going to change with time.ABED wrote:So, you think it's bad writing? That change, if there is one, wasn't dramatized.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
Goku matured with age. You didn't need to dramatize the fact that he learned how to distinguish boys from girls without patting them, did you?ABED wrote:It's bad because you need to dramatize something like that, either the change or the impetus for the change. It's not the change itself that's bad, it's the lack of dramatization.Doctor. wrote:I don't see why the change has to necessarily be bad writing. It's a by-product of Toriyama writing weekly for years, his perception of his characters is going to change with time.ABED wrote:So, you think it's bad writing? That change, if there is one, wasn't dramatized.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
No, we saw the impetus for it, and we see him interact with more and more people.Goku matured with age. You didn't need to dramatize the fact that he learned how to distinguish boys from girls without patting them, did you?
And how is showing Freeza mercy an example of him maturing?
Last edited by ABED on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
My point of view.ABED wrote: Your evidence-
Your point of view.except that HE hasn't changed, circumstances changed.
Pretty sure I haven't so much as implied that.So, you think it's bad writing? That change
I'm not saying he was dancing on his grave or that his demise brought him sadistic satisfaction, for Pete's sake. Of course he was happy he defeated him, that doesn't change what I've said.In the manga, that's flat out untrue. He's happy to have defeated Tao Pai Pai,
And I'm done here.
Last edited by Michsi on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
But it IS bad writing. It wasn't shown or at least shown why he would change. I probably should have written "DO you think that's bad writing?"Pretty sure I haven't so much as implied that.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
Valuing life more is clearly an example of him maturing. Why do kids kill bugs for fun?ABED wrote:No, we saw the impetus for it, and we see him interact with more and more people.Goku matured with age. You didn't need to dramatize the fact that he learned how to distinguish boys from girls without patting them, did you?
And how is showing Freeza mercy an example of him maturing?
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
But he doesn't value life more. He lets Vegeta go because he wants to fight him. He lets the cyborgs get created because he wants to fight them. You are dropping context.Doctor. wrote:Valuing life more is clearly an example of him maturing. Why do kids kill bugs for fun?ABED wrote:No, we saw the impetus for it, and we see him interact with more and more people.Goku matured with age. You didn't need to dramatize the fact that he learned how to distinguish boys from girls without patting them, did you?
And how is showing Freeza mercy an example of him maturing?
It makes complete sense to me that Goku would take no pleasure in killing Freeza. Similar to why he let Vegeta go and asked for Buu to be reincarnated. He wants a good fight and he doesn't like seeing such strength wasted.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
Yes, and he lets Nappa, the Ginyus and Freeza go because he doesn't want to kill them, not because he wants to fight them again. He can have multiple motivations for his actions. He didn't let Piccolo go just because he wanted to save Kami or just because he wanted to fight Piccolo, it was both.ABED wrote:But he doesn't value life more. He lets Vegeta go because he wants to fight him. He lets the cyborgs get created because he wants to fight them. You are dropping context.Doctor. wrote:Valuing life more is clearly an example of him maturing. Why do kids kill bugs for fun?ABED wrote:No, we saw the impetus for it, and we see him interact with more and more people.
And how is showing Freeza mercy an example of him maturing?
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
And how does that show change from when he was a kid. He doesn't immediately kill Silver, either. He tries to walk away from that fight.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
Because when he was a kid, he killed without remorse. We've been over this.ABED wrote:And how does that show change from when he was a kid. He doesn't immediately kill Silver, either. He tries to walk away from that fight.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
Probably his DB portrayal.
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
When he thought he killed Sgt. Metallic, he said he did a bad thing and even did a little prayer. He didn't kill without remorse. He doesn't like killing, but he will do it if he has to. He has no problem destroying Buu.Doctor. wrote:Because when he was a kid, he killed without remorse. We've been over this.ABED wrote:And how does that show change from when he was a kid. He doesn't immediately kill Silver, either. He tries to walk away from that fight.
Another reason my favorite iteration of Goku is during the 23rd TB is because of his design. He's not grotesquely muscular. He looks strong, but very limber.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
Are we really doing this again?
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
It's a forum, it's meant for debate.KBABZ wrote:Are we really doing this again?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
I don't recall that. Mind posting the page or the chapter number?ABED wrote:When he thought he killed Sgt. Metallic, he said he did a bad thing and even did a little prayer. He didn't kill without remorse. He doesn't like killing, but he will do it if he has to. He has no problem destroying Buu.
He did kill without remorse. Or at least, he was less remorseful. You need only compare Tambourine, whom he chases down and kills for revenge, and Freeza, whom he gave two chances to walk away and really only 'killed' him once he was forced to. It seems he learned his lesson from Freeza, so I really wouldn't use anything past the Namek arc as an example. He has no qualms in killing Cell, Yakon and Dabura.
I don't understand what your problem is.KBABZ wrote:Are we really doing this again?
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Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
Metallic is that Arnold looking robot that is protecting one of the floors of Muscle Tower.Doctor. wrote:I don't recall that. Mind posting the page or the chapter number?ABED wrote:When he thought he killed Sgt. Metallic, he said he did a bad thing and even did a little prayer. He didn't kill without remorse. He doesn't like killing, but he will do it if he has to. He has no problem destroying Buu.
He did kill without remorse. Or at least, he was less remorseful. You need only compare Tambourine, whom he chases down and kills for revenge, and Freeza, whom he gave two chances to walk away and really only 'killed' him once he was forced to. It seems he learned his lesson from Freeza, so I really wouldn't use anything past the Namek arc as an example. He has no qualms in killing Cell, Yakon and Dabura.
I don't understand what your problem is.KBABZ wrote:Are we really doing this again?
Wait, so he shows no mercy before, matures, learns from Freeza, and goes back to not showing mercy?
Freeza is a huge outlier and I think it's less about him showing remorse and him feeling like it was a waste of the strongest opponent he had ever faced. Remember when he told Kuririn why he wanted him to let Vegeta go? He said that he thought "what a waste".
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku
I know who Metallic is, I was asking for the page. I went to check it out and you're right, but it's a different situation. He didn't really have a personal problem with him. We know what happens when kid Goku has a problem with someone, see the Piccolo Daimao arc.ABED wrote:Metallic is that Arnold looking robot that is protecting one of the floors of Muscle Tower.
Wait, so he shows no mercy before, matures, learns from Freeza, and goes back to not showing mercy?
Freeza is a huge outlier and I think it's less about him showing remorse and him feeling like it was a waste of the strongest opponent he had ever faced. Remember when he told Kuririn why he wanted him to let Vegeta go? He said that he thought "what a waste".
Sure. Don't really see what's wrong with that interpretation. It's not necessarily character regression, if that's what you're implying.
Freeza isn't the only outlier. He shows mercy to Raditz, Nappa and the Ginyus whilst expressing that he never wants to see them again. You would have a point if it only happened with Freeza, but Freeza's just the more dramatized occasion because showing mercy to him is appropriate to his character arc after going Super Saiyan.