How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

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Gligarman
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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by Gligarman » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:00 pm

I'd like to think that people probably wouldn't have been as hard on them but the fact of the matter is that those movies do exists which makes both of those arcs a waste of time. I like the first two sitcom episodes of the Beerus arc but those could have just been stand-alone specials to build up to the release of Battle of Gods. To me the show doesn't truly begin until the Champa arc.

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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:13 am

Gligarman wrote:I'd like to think that people probably wouldn't have been as hard on them but the fact of the matter is that those movies do exists which makes both of those arcs a waste of time. I like the first two sitcom episodes of the Beerus arc but those could have just been stand-alone specials to build up to the release of Battle of Gods. To me the show doesn't truly begin until the Champa arc.
When I think of my dislike for super, those don't even apply to my retrospect. The BoG arc changes nothing but its aesthetic choices for the setting, granted the Sinister Beerus did add more room for his present character development, and the BoG arc felt like they were trying to adjust the movie, but ended up failing so by just dragging it out with poor animation trying to keep it too scene for scene. The ROF arc was the waste of time, because like the TOP is set up a lot, only for things put in to do nothing. Like Tagoma's change in beliefs, and Ginyu's return. If this was Z those would have been much longer sub-plots or at least filler character arcs. Without the two movie recaps Super would be no better quality, if not worse just being a sandwich of 2 tournament arcs and a disjointed middle future Trunks arc. Barely even a series at all. Though people ignore the first two arcs anyway.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:57 am

I think everyone would agree there is a lot of padding, both arcs could have been done in 13 episodes and not 26, but both arcs would be greatly received. My number one issue with the two Super Arcs that I've already seen this stuff before not that it was slower paced, and I think a lot of people would agree.

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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by Gligarman » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:34 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Gligarman wrote:I'd like to think that people probably wouldn't have been as hard on them but the fact of the matter is that those movies do exists which makes both of those arcs a waste of time. I like the first two sitcom episodes of the Beerus arc but those could have just been stand-alone specials to build up to the release of Battle of Gods. To me the show doesn't truly begin until the Champa arc.
When I think of my dislike for super, those don't even apply to my retrospect. The BoG arc changes nothing but its aesthetic choices for the setting, granted the Sinister Beerus did add more room for his present character development, and the BoG arc felt like they were trying to adjust the movie, but ended up failing so by just dragging it out with poor animation trying to keep it too scene for scene. The ROF arc was the waste of time, because like the TOP is set up a lot, only for things put in to do nothing. Like Tagoma's change in beliefs, and Ginyu's return. If this was Z those would have been much longer sub-plots or at least filler character arcs. Without the two movie recaps Super would be no better quality, if not worse just being a sandwich of 2 tournament arcs and a disjointed middle future Trunks arc. Barely even a series at all. Though people ignore the first two arcs anyway.
The tournament arcs were always the most popular part of the original manga. But once Piccolo Daimao entered the picture it was all about world-ending consequences. I like the fact that the TOP and Champa arcs managed to combine both of the best aspects of the original manga. The Future Trunks arc on the other hand could have been done away with entirely if two Zen-Oh's had been introduced from the start. But I digress, without the first two arcs at the very least the show would have been a bit shorter and less tedious to start.

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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by Shaddy » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:30 am

One could argue that those two arcs were treated with less care due to being movie recaps, so if those movies never existed they could have been better. At the same time, knowing that they could have been being treated with less care was a lot of what kept me hopeful for the episodes afterwards, which I think most can agree improved things quite a bit.

But if they were to come out looking the way they did in Super's first year, in a timeline where the movies didn't exist? No, there'd be too many egregious errors to ignore. The bare minimum would be having them look the way they did on the BDs. Avoiding the episode 5 "let's post every off-model screenshot in one scene" shitstorm and probably the hilariously dumb reused animation in the RoF arc would make it able to truck along until we actually got to the interesting stuff, but then that's not really what happened in reality.
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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by Fizzer » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:01 pm

Without the movies, it would have been

"Why did they retcon the Pilaf gang into children!? They just wrecked the entire continuity for no reason!"

I still can't believe they didn't include the explanation from the movie in the Super version.

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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:17 pm

Gligarman wrote:The tournament arcs were always the most popular part of the original manga. But once Piccolo Daimao entered the picture it was all about world-ending consequences. I like the fact that the TOP and Champa arcs managed to combine both of the best aspects of the original manga. The Future Trunks arc on the other hand could have been done away with entirely if two Zen-Oh's had been introduced from the start. But I digress, without the first two arcs at the very least the show would have been a bit shorter and less tedious to start.
Thats because the Tournaments back then were not just characters fighting just for the sake of fighting or forced to fight for petty reasons like in Super. The tournaments felt like what Shounen usually does where it has character stories clashing between each other around it. The tournaments were just settings to introduce new figures, after DB the tournaments literally just revolved around the sake of fighting. In DB they had the whole thing about Piccolo jr. and Kami's disguise, could Goku kill Piccolo jr. and risk killing kami or Jackie Chun disguised as Roshi trying to fight his students while wanting to teach them a lesson, Goku shocks him going Oozaru, and Goku barely stands up to win. Or Chi-Chi finding Goku because he was at the Tournament and became a martial artist despite her fear of monsters just to find him for his promise to marry her. We've gotten nothing since then. The closest being the Tournament front for Supreme Kai & Babidi seeking energy. While the Cell games was all about developing Gohan. All other fighting Shounen still does this where ironically DB stopped. It focuses more on just beating an opponent than anything else. Goku vs. Hit was essentially Goku asspulling ver an obstacle. Nothing more.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by Gligarman » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:23 pm

Thats because the Tournaments back then were not just characters fighting just for the sake of fighting or forced to fight for petty reasons like in Super. The tournaments felt like what Shounen usually does where it has character stories clashing between each other around it. The tournaments were just settings to introduce new figures, after DB the tournaments literally just revolved around the sake of fighting. In DB they had the whole thing about Piccolo jr. and Kami's disguise, could Goku kill Piccolo jr. and risk killing kami or Jackie Chun disguised as Roshi trying to fight his students while wanting to teach them a lesson, Goku shocks him going Oozaru, and Goku barely stands up to win. Or Chi-Chi finding Goku because he was at the Tournament and became a martial artist despite her fear of monsters just to find him for his promise to marry her. We've gotten nothing since then. The closest being the Tournament front for Supreme Kai & Babidi seeking energy. While the Cell games was all about developing Gohan. All other fighting Shounen still does this where ironically DB stopped. It focuses more on just beating an opponent than anything else. Goku vs. Hit was essentially Goku asspulling ver an obstacle. Nothing more.
That's not true though because in the first Dragon Ball's tournament arc they were fighting just for the sake of testing their strength. In fact that's the arc that made Dragon Ball a hit because prior that it wasn't nearly as popular. The second tournament was the same initially. Eventually it led to the Piccolo Daimao arc but the tournament itself served the same purpose that the arcs in Super did. To show off new characters and abilities.

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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by Cipher » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:13 am

It’s impossible to answer this thoughtfully without acknowledging that, without the movies, there’s no way those episodes would have come out the way they did, or within the timeframe they did.

You’re asking us to imagine the reception for a very poor batch of episodes while removing the key factor behind their poor execution. As it stands, if we changed nothing—which is dishonest—all we’d have is two more otherwise fun plots being forever tied to a string of particularly poor episodes, left to wonder what might have been if executed in more capable hands instead of knowing.

Also, the massive fuck-up of never providing an explanation for the Pilaf gang’s youth in the series really can’t be brought up often enough, because it’s hilarious and because it’s entirely emblematic of what a mess the first two arcs are, both because they’re adapting recent material and scrambling to do so within the timeframe they had (coming off the second film).

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Re: How do you think the first two arcs of Super would have been received without the movies?

Post by majinwarman » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:34 am

I think that without the movies, Super would never would have lasted at all. The show would have been canceled the moment it started to struggle.
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