A potential 4K release of DBZ...

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A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by clutchins » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:25 pm

I feel like a few years from now when 4K hits a stride with releases, this would be a perfect opportunity to scan either the original dragon box negatives in 4K or Funimation's film masters that were used for the level sets and correct the colors to a rich, non-faded pallette. And seeing that Chris Sabat has at least a portion of useable broadcast audio with more coming I would bet, it could include an upgraded lossless Japanese track. Perhaps maybe fix some of the faulconer music issues in the American dub track where the songs have been changed?
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Kamiccolo9 wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:
Original Thread Topic wrote:Did Dragon Ball ever motivate you to exercise?
No, why would it? It's fiction. The strength of the characters is not possible to reach in reality.
I mean, you're pretty open about looking at cartoon porn. Why would you do that? It's fiction. The proportions of these women are not possible to reach in reality.

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by MrTennek » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:40 pm

There would really be no point for a 4K release. As far as I'm aware, the series was photographed onto 16mm film, which I believe is somewhere slightly below 2K in terms of resolution (aside from a handful of Namek Arc episodes, which, for some reason, were printed onto 35mm film).

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Forte224 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:54 pm

MrTennek wrote:There would really be no point for a 4K release. As far as I'm aware, the series was photographed onto 16mm film, which I believe is somewhere slightly below 2K in terms of resolution (aside from a handful of Namek Arc episodes, which, for some reason, were printed onto 35mm film).
Well, the point would be that people hear "4K" and immediately think they need it in their lives. At this point, I highly doubt we'll see Dragon Box footage again. The orange bricks and blu rays have sold so well that I don't think they see a reason for change.

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by KBABZ » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:05 pm

Forte224 wrote:Well, the point would be that people hear "4K" and immediately think they need it in their lives. At this point, I highly doubt we'll see Dragon Box footage again. The orange bricks and blu rays have sold so well that I don't think they see a reason for change.
Given that most Orange Brick owners fell for the DVDs being in HD simply because it was mastered in HD, all Funimation would have to do is apply a sharpness filter on the 1080 footage, blow it up to 4K, and fool them all over again.

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Forte224 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:27 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Forte224 wrote:Well, the point would be that people hear "4K" and immediately think they need it in their lives. At this point, I highly doubt we'll see Dragon Box footage again. The orange bricks and blu rays have sold so well that I don't think they see a reason for change.
Given that most Orange Brick owners fell for the DVDs being in HD simply because it was mastered in HD, all Funimation would have to do is apply a sharpness filter on the 1080 footage, blow it up to 4K, and fool them all over again.
Pretty much, yeah. People really know very little when it comes to picture quality. They just hear the trendy numbers and jump all over it.

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:42 pm

MrTennek wrote:There would really be no point for a 4K release. As far as I'm aware, the series was photographed onto 16mm film, which I believe is somewhere slightly below 2K in terms of resolution (aside from a handful of Namek Arc episodes, which, for some reason, were printed onto 35mm film).
16mm has about half the frame area of 35mm film. 35mm film holds approximately 6-8K of resolution(A precise number has never been agreed on; it's a debate that still goes on to this day). So, 16mm would hold about 3-4K of resolution, in theory.
So, 4K would be worth doing from 16mm, it's just that 4K is about where it caps out in terms of gaining useful information. Though it's likely still better to scan it at a higher resolution than to digitally upscale it anyway, so even if you aren't gaining much real detail from the 4K master, it'd still probably look better than the 2K master, or an upscaled 2K master, if you're watching on a 4K TV.

'Course, a lot of work would be needed to get a nice 4K master out of Funi's materials, but I'm sure the folks at &transfer could do an excellent job with it, if they do it like the Levels.
clutchins wrote:And seeing that Chris Sabat has at least a portion of useable broadcast audio with more coming I would bet, it could include an upgraded lossless Japanese track.
Chris Sabat's collection is Z in its entirety, and episodes 1-7 and 153 of Dragon Ball, and last I heard, he was going to look into getting the original master audio of GT from the D2 tape master.
Since Z is the only series Funi has on film, and thus since that'd be the only one that'd be eligible for 4K, he pretty much has the entire lot that would be needed for this idea.
clutchins wrote:I feel like a few years from now when 4K hits a stride with releases, this would be a perfect opportunity to scan either the original dragon box negatives in 4K or Funimation's film masters that were used for the level sets and correct the colors to a rich, non-faded pallette. [...] Perhaps maybe fix some of the faulconer music issues in the American dub track where the songs have been changed?
Sounds great, especially if they threw in the original(Uncut) OG Funi dub track for episodes 68+ so US fans who grew up on that dub could finally actually own that version without hunting down and collecting all the DVD singles.
But yeah, I think this is a good idea. I'd love to see it happen. And honestly, I think it may happen eventually, we just have to keep talking about it, and then as soon as it looks like a new release of Z may happen, try to get the entire fandom behind us as we push for an uncropped, Level-like master with the broadcast audio.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by clutchins » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:01 pm

I may be pushing it in terms of wishful thinking territory here but what I want here is a Criterion-level display of attention done for a 4K restoration of Z. Funimation could license those dragon box masters from Toei and do all the work for them since Toei doesn't seem to care about giving Z a proper HD treatment. They're just sitting, wasting away in cold storage somewhere in Japan, when a deal could be made to put them to amazing use.
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Kamiccolo9 wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:
Original Thread Topic wrote:Did Dragon Ball ever motivate you to exercise?
No, why would it? It's fiction. The strength of the characters is not possible to reach in reality.
I mean, you're pretty open about looking at cartoon porn. Why would you do that? It's fiction. The proportions of these women are not possible to reach in reality.

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Metalwario64 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:23 am

clutchins wrote:I may be pushing it in terms of wishful thinking territory here but what I want here is a Criterion-level display of attention done for a 4K restoration of Z. Funimation could license those dragon box masters from Toei and do all the work for them since Toei doesn't seem to care about giving Z a proper HD treatment. They're just sitting, wasting away in cold storage somewhere in Japan, when a deal could be made to put them to amazing use.
The Dragon Box masters were only scanned in SD as far as I remember.

Really, all we need is just FUNimation's prints with some stabilization done, and that alone is good enough for me. The damage and dirt aren't top priority for me considering how much cost would go into restoring 291 episodes in HD/4K.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Bruma rabu » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:22 am

Metalwario64 wrote:Really, all we need is just FUNimation's prints with some stabilization done, and that alone is good enough for me. The damage and dirt aren't top priority for me considering how much cost would go into restoring 291 episodes in HD/4K.
The damage is pretty bad, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6b3sg0p8WY.
The chances of getting DBZ in 4k is slim to none. I honestly don't see Toei ever doing this, they never even made a proper 1080p release. They could potentially release 2 versions, one in 1080p and the other in 4k. Subarashii right? Maybe not, if people are complaining about the Dbox being so expensive can you image what a 4k version would cost? Now maybe the Funi version will be cheaper? Well that's assuming they would even bring over the 4k version. From the top of my head I know of 2 movies Funi has released(Godzilla and Your Name) that have 4k version but they never brought them over, only their 1080p versions. So at least for NA we will most likely only get the 1080p. Another thing even if we do get the 4k version who knows what kind of quality we would get. Your Name has been released in different regions in 4k and some versions look awful, as far as i know there is no standard for HDR. I doubt the average anime fan even has the equipment to even watch 4k, some still don't even have blu ray player.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:54 am

I do believe we will see a 4K Blu-Ray release of DBZ when the format becomes more common and affordable for the average consumer. It will probably come from Funimation as TOEI has yet to release the show on standard Blu-Ray, and we all know how much Funi love milking that cash cow.
Bruma rabu wrote:Maybe not, if people are complaining about the Dbox being so expensive can you image what a 4k version would cost? Now maybe the Funi version will be cheaper?
I don't think it would go up in price unless the packaging is made for collectors (as is the case for the Dragon Boxes). If its in standard UHD Blu-Ray cases the prices should stay around the MSRP, if not go down when sales are announced (Funi's current DBZ BDs can be bought for dirt cheap despite being on a higher quality format than the Dragon Boxes). Since we are more likely to get an UHD from Funi than TOEI I wouldn't worry too much about pricing.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Bruma rabu » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:38 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:I do believe we will see a 4K Blu-Ray release of DBZ when the format becomes more common and affordable for the average consumer. It will probably come from Funimation as TOEI has yet to release the show on standard Blu-Ray, and we all know how much Funi love milking that cash cow.
So far Funimation has not released anything in 4k, they can barely release blu rays at a decent quality right now. Their encoding is probably the worst out all of the localization company's in NA, they'll botch it up some how. But lets go with the scenario with them producing a 4k release. In all likely hood it will not be true 4k, it will most likely be the current blu rays upscaled to 4k. They couldn't afford to finish the level sets so i doubt they'll be able to make a true 4k restoration. Next comes HDR, no clue how they'll implement it, but i can assure you it will look like crap considering the stuff they have to work with.


Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:I don't think it would go up in price unless the packaging is made for collectors (as is the case for the Dragon Boxes). If its in standard UHD Blu-Ray cases the prices should stay around the MSRP, if not go down when sales are announced (Funi's current DBZ BDs can be bought for dirt cheap despite being on a higher quality format than the Dragon Boxes). Since we are more likely to get an UHD from Funi than TOEI I wouldn't worry too much about pricing.
So the reason i said that it will cost more than the DBoxes is because I'm basing it of the Japanese prices. In reality if we were to get a proper 4k release it would be from Toei. As of right now a single DBS blu ray with about 11 episodes cost about $110. I'm guessing here but I'm thinking there's going to be 11 sets of DBS blu rays, thats about $1,210 on regular blu rays. I'm going to assume they'll probably price them at a similar price if DBZ came out on blu ray. So if a 4k release is come out they would probably add 40-100 bucks more on top that.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by PremiumSalt » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:49 am

I think if there was a 4K release of DBZ before the original DB got a regular Blu Ray I would cry.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:26 am

Forte224 wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
Forte224 wrote:Well, the point would be that people hear "4K" and immediately think they need it in their lives. At this point, I highly doubt we'll see Dragon Box footage again. The orange bricks and blu rays have sold so well that I don't think they see a reason for change.
Given that most Orange Brick owners fell for the DVDs being in HD simply because it was mastered in HD, all Funimation would have to do is apply a sharpness filter on the 1080 footage, blow it up to 4K, and fool them all over again.
Pretty much, yeah. People really know very little when it comes to picture quality. They just hear the trendy numbers and jump all over it.
Well talk about generalizing. Picture "quality" at the end of day is subjective, I think it's pretty elitist of you saying
"People really know very little when it comes to picture quality" as a way of explaining why said releases are a success. Maybe just maybe people like how they look? You don't need a university degree to decide what you're watching on screen looks good or not.

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Forte224 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:22 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Forte224 wrote:
KBABZ wrote: Given that most Orange Brick owners fell for the DVDs being in HD simply because it was mastered in HD, all Funimation would have to do is apply a sharpness filter on the 1080 footage, blow it up to 4K, and fool them all over again.
Pretty much, yeah. People really know very little when it comes to picture quality. They just hear the trendy numbers and jump all over it.
Well talk about generalizing. Picture "quality" at the end of day is subjective, I think it's pretty elitist of you saying
"People really know very little when it comes to picture quality" as a way of explaining why said releases are a success. Maybe just maybe people like how they look? You don't need a university degree to decide what you're watching on screen looks good or not.
Uh, yeah I'm generalizing. The general populous knows jack about picture quality and just buys what's trendy. And their doing that has led us to things like not being able to own a decent release of DBZ without spending $800. Picture quality is not subjective. It can be broken down and explained like anything else. It also doesn't need to be. Crap cropping and remastering doesn't need breaking down to be identified. But the world we live in goes "Wow look cheap blu rays!! Ohmigawd DBZ at 1080p my DBZ watching experience just went Super Saiyan!" and buys whatever anyone regurgitates out. It was the same for the orange bricks and it'll be the same for Funi's crappy and inevitable 4K release.

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:40 pm

clutchins wrote:I may be pushing it in terms of wishful thinking territory here but what I want here is a Criterion-level display of attention done for a 4K restoration of Z. Funimation could license those dragon box masters from Toei and do all the work for them since Toei doesn't seem to care about giving Z a proper HD treatment. They're just sitting, wasting away in cold storage somewhere in Japan, when a deal could be made to put them to amazing use.
To be clear, the proper terminology to use here is the original film negatives and first-generation prints. Dragon Box masters implies you're talking about the digital files created when Pony Canyon scanned those film elements.

This lexical detail aside, I agree with you in theory, but I don't think Toei would do that.
The closest I think it could get is if they could strike new prints from the negatives, and use material from the first-gen prints for the material they don't have the negatives of anymore(OPs, eyecatches, EDs, NEPs), which would effectively give Funimation prints of exactly the same set of materials that Toei and Pony Canyon used when making the Dragon Boxes, including the fact that they would presumably make 35mm prints for the episodes that were photographed onto 35mm negatives.
This would probably not be cheap, and it would be a difficult thing to convince the Funimation executives to do, since it would effectively render all the film they already possess to be obsolete, but if it could be done, this would pretty much be the ideal materials to work off of for remastering.
Metalwario64 wrote:The Dragon Box masters were only scanned in SD as far as I remember.

Really, all we need is just FUNimation's prints with some stabilization done, and that alone is good enough for me. The damage and dirt aren't top priority for me considering how much cost would go into restoring 291 episodes in HD/4K.
As I mentioned above, I'm pretty sure he means the materials Toei used to make the Dragon Boxes.

Anyway, I think Funimation's prints are good enough to make a decent 4K master, it would just be expensive and difficult. Thing is, it's easy to say they should leave the damage and dirt on the frame, but what about the tape and glue marks at the top and bottom of every shot transition in the series?

In any case, I think cleaning the dirt and damage is something that should be done, though I think they could get away with only removing the really noticeable stuff. Little specks and such on-screen for a frame aren't really an issue IMO, but massive scratches, tape marks, etc. are rather distracting, so those should be rermoved. Doing it like that would probably be quite a lot cheaper, and would still look really nice. And of course, the Dragon Ball movies 1-4 HD masters basically did what I'm describing, so I think that could work.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:39 pm

I think it's only a matter of time before we get a 4K release and despite it being a great chance for them to fix their previous mistakes, I think they'll just re-release the season sets they currently have on Blu-Ray and DVD with slightly better quality. A re-dub would also be nice but that's not going to happen.
MrTennek wrote:There would really be no point for a 4K release.
There's no point in having more than one release yet Z has 7-8 so you can be sure there'll be more in the future. The Z part of the franchise is simply too iconic and popular for them not to try a 4K release.
clutchins wrote:They're just sitting, wasting away in cold storage somewhere in Japan, when a deal could be made to put them to amazing use.
The reason Japan isn't doing anything major is because of the cost people are asked to pay for them. If a DVD with 6-7 episodes costs up to 60$ then how much would a 4K release cost ?
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:47 pm

sintzu wrote:I think it's only a matter of time before we get a 4K release and despite it being a great chance for them to fix their previous mistakes, I think they'll just re-release the season sets they currently have on Blu-Ray and DVD with slightly better quality. A re-dub would also be nice but that's not going to happen.
They might fix some of the mistakes made with the "Remastered" dub again; replace the missing voice filters, fix the Faulconer track placements from the Ginyu episodes, and I think there's still a missing line or two that might need re-inserting?
If a redub was in the cards, it would have to be a redub of the entire thing with new scripts, and the entire Kai cast. I don't think they could do it within a reasonable budget.
Honestly, all I'm hoping for on the dub side is that they fix the "Remastered" dub's remaining glitches/mistakes, and add the original 1999-2002 dub from the DVD singles to episodes 68+ as an extra audio track. Oldschool Toonami-era fans should be allowed the option of watching the show as they remember it from way back when, and watching it in its original form provides a much less jarring experience than the frankendub that's been on all the modern DVDs/BDs.

I think it is possible they might do a proper, 4:3 master for a 4K release, especially since you'd basically have to use the full frame to get actual 4K resolution out of it, though given their Blu-Ray release has no more detail than their old DVD releases due to its poor remastering, they could probably get away with doing that again... :L
Still, if they did do a proper, Level-style remaster for a 4K release, they could probably do a big marketing thing about just how much extra detail you're getting; since the Season BDs were so low-detail, it'd be super-easy to say "Look at this. Looks a little blurry doesn't it? Now look at what it looks like in 4K!! And look at this... We've opened up the frame, to give you 50% more picture!"
Granted, they very easily could just do the same cropped, blurry mastering they've done since 2007, but if they did do it properly, and in 4:3, it wouldn't be all that hard to market. They could even market it to people who haven't moved to 4K yet by saying "And due to the incredibly high detail of our 4K master, even if you're only using a 1080p TV, you'll still gain all this detail, and you'll still benefit from the 50% extra frame!"
Might be a long shot, but this is probably our last chance to get a proper release, since unless 35mm material of the entire run miraculously appears from some alternate universe where the series was photographed onto 35, the show can never truly be remastered in 8K.
sintzu wrote:There's no point in having more than one release yet Z has 7-8 so you can be sure there'll be more in the future. The Z part of the franchise is simply too iconic and popular for them not to try a 4K release.
Yeah. If there's one thing Funi likes more than anything, it's re-releasing Z. We just all have to hope it's 4:3 this time.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:56 pm

Robo4900 wrote:If there's one thing Funi likes more than anything, it's re-releasing Z. We just all have to hope it's 4:3 this time.
Based on how much it'll cost, I doubt they'll risk a 4:3 release as there are people who think it's not "modern" enough and not the way the show "was meant to be seen". DBZ was made at a certain time in a certain way, it was never meant to be seen any other way so I don't know why they don't leave it be and let people see it for what it is, a 90's show. If people want modern DB they have Super for that.

I just use my TV to adjust 4:3 shows to 16:9 so I don't know why they can't just put a sticker on the case that tells people to do that if they want to.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:10 pm

sintzu wrote:I doubt they'll risk a 4:3 release [...]

I just use my TV to adjust 4:3 shows to 16:9 so I don't know why they can't just put a sticker on the case that tells people to do that if they want to.
Most people don't care about black bars, and the few that do are like you in that their TVs are set to zoom in 4:3 content to fill it. So, cropped releases are entirely unnecessary, and I think it's pretty clear the only reason Funi did it was as one final corner to cut to reduce costs a little; before the release of the Season Blu-Rays, Funimation did a survey asking whether people preferred cropped or full-frame, and the answer was overwhelmingly in favour of full-frame.
sintzu wrote:Based on how much it'll cost, [...]
You are right that the cropping was a cost-cutting measure, but if they have the money to re-scan the film for a 4K master, they'd have the money to do it uncropped. The remastering as a whole could probably be done somewhat similarly to the HD masters of DB movies 1-4 movies Funi did, and it'd do well; the most grievous damage, aswell as the tape marks, were cleaned up, and some mild DNR was put on it, but it was basically left mostly raw. Not a perfect master, but pretty good, highly detailed, and in 4:3. It wouldn't be that expensive to do(Funi haven't even put out those movies on BD, and the DVDs they used that master on weren't exactly a mega-hit. If it was an expensive process, they wouldn't have done it). At the very least, it'd be significantly cheaper than the Levels. More expensive than the Season BDs, but the Season BDs were about as cheap as a remaster gets.
sintzu wrote:as there are people who think it's not "modern" enough and not the way the show "was meant to be seen".
The show is old. The people who continually buy it are largely people who grew up on the Toonami run who just want to enjoy that old show they used to watch on TV in the '90s/'00s. They'll care more about the higher level of detail than they will about the grain, and it having to be zoomed in if they want it to fit their widescreen TV.
If the "Modern" aspect ratio/grain stuff was an issue, Star Trek Next Gen's HD master would have been a total flop, as would almost all movie releases, including many modern movies that have black bars at the top and bottom, and have grain from the fact they were shot on 35mm film.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by PacificOceanDub » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:27 pm

If a 4K release were to happen, I’d base my purchase decision on other criteria, not the fact that it’s 4K. First of all, it would obviosuly have to be 4:3, uncropped. The fact that we don’t have a definitive uncut U.S. release in that aspect ratio is ridiculous. Second, I would want the same options given to us as far as audio. Japanese Audio, and English Dub with choice of original or Faulconer score.

An extra cherry on top would be to include the ‘99-‘03 broadcast version of the English audio. I’d rather have that than the 2007 re-dub of Seasons 3 and 4
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