A potential 4K release of DBZ...

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Kuwabara
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Kuwabara » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:01 am

Robo4900 wrote: No, I don't expect them to reshoot it in 4K, I expect them to just not release it in 4K. Doing an upscale is just manipulative, pointless, and as you say, dishonest.
And no, it's not a cost saving measure, it's an excuse to re-release literally the same thing just with one digital filter put over it, and a new menu and marketing campaign behind it. And where does "I would gladly take [an upscale] over cropping 20% of the footage away" come from? My whole point here is that either you should just do an authentic 4K release, or just not goddamn do one at all. This isn't about cropping vs upscaling, it's about the fact that both of those things are awful, manipulative, cheap, idiotic ways of doing a release, and neither should be acceptable to any degree whatsoever.
There are hundreds of films shot in/scanned in at 2K and no intermediary home video format between 1080p and 4K exists. Should there be commercial 2K Blu-rays and televisions? Sounds nice and I'd be all for it, but it's also a slippery slope and confusing for consumers. Where would it end? Upscaling 2K to 4K is no where near the same as upscaling 480i to 1080p, there's such a massive difference in resolutions there that your post comes off as really hysterical.

I brought up the cropping because it was a cost saving measure, just like upscaling a 2K scan to 4K would be.

Most people wouldn't (and don't) notice a difference between 2K and 4K, and upscaling is fine if done correctly with light filters and proper encoding. If FUNimation did what I suggested for a 4K release and wasn't totally transparent about that aspect of the process, it would be such an improvement over previous releases that I guarantee you and everyone else wouldn't even know.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:03 am

Kuwabara wrote:Should there be commercial 2K Blu-rays and televisions?
Point of clarification, since this sentence confuses me, and leads me to perhaps believe this may need explaining: 2K is 1080p. In theory, they could be distinct, but in practice, there's never any difference.
Using the K style of referring to things, 1080p becomes 2K, in contrast to 4K.
Using the p style of referring to things, 4K becomes 2160p, in contrast to 1080p.

Just making sure this is known. Apologies if this makes me seem condescending in any way, these terms are confusing an inconsistent, so I thought I'd best clarify just in case.
(Plus, any onlookers to this may be unaware, so even if you are aware, this may clarify things for others)
Kuwabara wrote:There are hundreds of films shot in/scanned in at 2K and no intermediary home video format between 1080p and 4K exists.
If it only exists in 2K, then you only release it in 2K. Simple as that.
No offense, but I don't get why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp.
Kuwabara wrote:Upscaling 2K to 4K is no where near the same as upscaling 480i to 1080p, there's such a massive difference in resolutions there that your post comes off as really hysterical.
My point is that upscaling is an unnecessary and manipulative release strategy. Whether it's 480 to 1080, or 1080 to 2160, you're selling a product as if it has more detail than it really does. If it only exists in 2K, then releasing it in 4K is just manipulating the consumer to buy snake oil.

Also, not a criticism or anything, just a small aside here that's worth noting, similar to the thing about 2K vs 1080p/4K vs 2160p; turning 480i into 1080p is slightly more than just upscaling, as it would involve IVTCing or deinterlacing. If it's a matter of deinterlacing instead of IVTCing, they may just go with 1080i. That seems to be the route the BBC are going with for the Blu-Ray upscale of Doctor Who season 12(Well, the source was 576i in that case, but semantics).
Kuwabara wrote:I brought up the cropping because it was a cost saving measure, just like upscaling a 2K scan to 4K would be.
Upscaling isn't a cost saving measure, it's a lie. A ton of movies and TV shows don't exist in a 4K format, so often it's not a matter of doing a proper remaster or upscaling, it's a matter of either releasing it in its original format, or upscaling it; with the original being an honest release, and the upscale being a lie.
Even if the materials exist to do a proper version, and they do an upscale anyway, it's still a lie, and not a cost-saving measure, because you're not doing the same thing for cheaper, you're re-releasing something that already existed, and telling people it's something new. Though, Funimation are known for that, so I wouldn't put it past them.
Kuwabara wrote:Most people wouldn't (and don't) notice a difference between 2K and 4K, and upscaling is fine if done correctly with light filters and proper encoding. If FUNimation did what I suggested for a 4K release and wasn't totally transparent about that aspect of the process, it would be such an improvement over previous releases that I guarantee you and everyone else wouldn't even know.
If most people don't notice the difference between 2K and 4K, then what's even the point in upscaling it? You'd just lose detail, and take up a ton of extra space on the disc.

Why upscale to 4K and pad each episode out to twice its size, when you could do a 2K release with twice the per-disc episode count, and thus half the number of discs, thus a cheaper release to produce, thus cheaper for the consumer to buy, thus more consumers would be incentivised to buy it, thus it'd be a better release all-round?
And for movies, an upscale would just mean you'd be bloating it out, which means it requires more bitrate to get the same level of detail, so you'd actually be putting out an inferior product.

Besides, your TV will do a great job at upscaling if you have a genuine 4K TV anyway -- at the very least, given the small perceptible difference between 2K and 4K, it shouldn't really be distinguishable from an official upscale, really -- so doing an upscaled release is really just a totally pointless vial of snake oil.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Bruma rabu » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:26 pm

What Kuwabara is saying is true though companies are already doing this. Movies like mad max and coco are not true 4k and just upscales. http://realorfake4k.com idk how credible this site is but it tells you what is true 4k, close to 4k and just upscaled 4k. This is what I was talking about when I said Funi will just upscale their BD release if they ever considered doing 4k.
In the upcoming months I'll see for my self how old school anime will look with 4k and hdr. So far I've only seen Your name and Mary and the Witch's Flower and they both look fantastic in 4k/HDR, but I'm pretty sure they are upscales and not true 4k. In fact I know Your name is an upscale.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by Kuwabara » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:32 am

Robo4900 wrote: Point of clarification, since this sentence confuses me, and leads me to perhaps believe this may need explaining: 2K is 1080p. In theory, they could be distinct, but in practice, there's never any difference.
Using the K style of referring to things, 1080p becomes 2K, in contrast to 4K.
Using the p style of referring to things, 4K becomes 2160p, in contrast to 1080p.
1080p and 2K aren't exactly the same though, saying that they are is kind of misleading. But I understand that they're very close. I should bring up that another reason I mentioned a 2K scan in the first place is because, mathematically, such an upscale to 4K would be more congruent than one based on a 1080p scan, so less unnecessary information overall.
Robo4900 wrote:If it only exists in 2K, then you only release it in 2K. Simple as that.
No offense, but I don't get why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp.
Who says that I don't understand? I'm basically on your side here, I think such parameters should generally just be left the fuck alone pretty much all of the time. But, as I've said, most people don't see the damn difference, and there's no "2K" home video format, so I could say the same for you not being able to grasp how things are, rather than how they should be. Like you, I would prefer for 2K source footage to just be left that way, but if such material was released as is on UHD Blu-rays, well, I could imagine plenty of pissed off consumers bitching about their movies not "actually" being 4K. I already know that you're going to say that they're not really 4K to begin with, but you know what I'm getting at. We know the difference, but most people don't. It's a seriously fucked up, stupid, awkward situation where 2K scans/sources are forever relegated to this weird state of limbo.
Robo4900 wrote: If most people don't notice the difference between 2K and 4K, then what's even the point in upscaling it? You'd just lose detail, and take up a ton of extra space on the disc
.
Not to sound cheeky, but because I was offering a potential strategy for Funimation to take in a thread entitled, "A potential 4K release of DBZ..."
Robo4900 wrote:Why upscale to 4K and pad each episode out to twice its size, when you could do a 2K release with twice the per-disc episode count, and thus half the number of discs, thus a cheaper release to produce, thus cheaper for the consumer to buy, thus more consumers would be incentivised to buy it, thus it'd be a better release all-round?
And for movies, an upscale would just mean you'd be bloating it out, which means it requires more bitrate to get the same level of detail, so you'd actually be putting out an inferior product.

Besides, your TV will do a great job at upscaling if you have a genuine 4K TV anyway -- at the very least, given the small perceptible difference between 2K and 4K, it shouldn't really be distinguishable from an official upscale, really -- so doing an upscaled release is really just a totally pointless vial of snake oil.
I agree with all of this. I would be perfectly fine with a good 1080p release on par with the Levels or better. I'm confident that Funimation has the money and resources to do it too. Whether they actually do or not is another story. A release based on a native 4K scan would be even better, but for a series as long as DBZ, I just don't see it happening because of how much more expensive it would be. A 1080p, color corrected, frame-by-frame restoration of the full series would be pretty expensive as it is, but still doable with better planning than what we've seen previously. Maybe Toei will do it some day, but even that's kind of doubtful if past releases and practices of theirs are anything to go by.
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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by clutchins » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:50 pm

I just think a 4K restoration would be the best way to celebrate the 30th anniversary of Z next year, or even the 35th if Funimation is still gunshy on UHD releases next year.
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Kamiccolo9 wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:
Original Thread Topic wrote:Did Dragon Ball ever motivate you to exercise?
No, why would it? It's fiction. The strength of the characters is not possible to reach in reality.
I mean, you're pretty open about looking at cartoon porn. Why would you do that? It's fiction. The proportions of these women are not possible to reach in reality.

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by KBABZ » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:04 pm

clutchins wrote:I just think a 4K restoration would be the best way to celebrate the 30th anniversary of Z next year, or even the 35th if Funimation is still gunshy on UHD releases next year.
With something as large as even the original Dragon Ball, this would have had to be initiated last year in order to make it in time, assuming it's being done properly and not "The Final Chapters"ed.

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Re: A potential 4K release of DBZ...

Post by clutchins » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:29 pm

I'd be fine if they just started releasing the series in 2019 and went into 2020 but yeah I doubt they are planning this right at this very moment.
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Kamiccolo9 wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:
Original Thread Topic wrote:Did Dragon Ball ever motivate you to exercise?
No, why would it? It's fiction. The strength of the characters is not possible to reach in reality.
I mean, you're pretty open about looking at cartoon porn. Why would you do that? It's fiction. The proportions of these women are not possible to reach in reality.

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