Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

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Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:30 pm

There’s obviously been a lot of debate on what exactly the term “human” means in the context of the Dragon Ball universe. Some have argued that it refers to any non-deity humanoid, on the count of the use of the word “ningen”(which would mean that the Saiyans are technically human), while many have argued that it exclusively refers to the humanoid type Earthlings. The Funimation dub, along with the official English subs for the Super anime have gone with the latter, whereas the manga for Super had gone with the former.

The question is, which do you prefer? “Humans” or “mortals”?

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by FoolsGil » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:42 pm

Mortals because even on Earth there on sentient non-humans including Saiyans.

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:48 pm

I go with Mortals...which is odd that Funimation used that term but then went for Invincibles instead of Immortal. Even in 4kids version of Kai wishing for immortality wasnt verboten!
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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Grimlock » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:54 pm

I prefer "beings". Human = Earthling and everyone is mortal, even gods. They have their own lifespan and they die of old age.
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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:56 pm

There's supposed to be a distinction. At least in Zamasu's crazy mind there is.
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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by namekiansaiyan » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:43 am

People from Earth are Earthlings while everyone who is not apart of Zeno's higher ups is a Human.

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:43 am

I prefer "ningen".
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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Lightdasher » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:52 am

I prefer "mortal". Humans are a specific species, it sounds lazy to generalize all mortal beings in such a way, and silly to not just say "mortal" if that's what you're going for. Namkians, Freeza's race, snails, dogs, even saiyans are not human (admittedly, the latter is very close).
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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:04 am

Mortal seems to be the most accurate way of addressing non deities, even if the supposed deities themselves are mortals by literal interpretation..
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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:28 am

Both terms are going to cause some level of trouble IF you're looking for them to be defined strictly as they are in the real world. But you really shouldn't be, since Dragon Ball is not the real world. A guy with three eyes is considered human. A guy with no nose is human. A guy who looks like a Chinese vampire is human. And that's just the humans living on earth. At the end of the day, though, translating "ningen" as "human" makes infinitely more sense than translating it as "mortal."

For the former, all that means is that you need to broaden your definition of human to include humanoid people on other planets. And I don't really see why that's such a point of contention. It really only seemed to become one once the Future Trunks Arc hit, which is actually the point in the series where referring to non-gods as "mortals" makes the absolute least sense. Because while it could have been glossed over before, this is the arc that really throws in your face just how non-fitting that is for Dragon Ball. Because it's a story about a god trying to kill "mortals" because he hates them for not being like him, while simultaneously trying to become immortal, ie. not mortal! That makes absolutely no sense, or at the very least instills a completely different self-loathing message in the bad guy that was never implied in the original text and ultimately goes nowhere. While I did say above both of these terms would require a broadened definition to be used in Dragon Ball, I feel mortal is a much larger pill to swallow when you literally have characters saying, "Even gods are not immortal," back to back with lines like, "That god wants to kill all mortals." I think the only way to make that work would be if you made a conscious effort as a translator to purge the series of all instances of "immortal" and "immortality" and instead sub in a synonym like "eternal life." It would still be problematic, but at least it wouldn't be actively reminding you how inappropriate it is every single time it's mentioned.

And that's not even getting into other prominent uses of the term "ningen" where mortal just wouldn't work as naturally as human would. For example, when Raditz tells Goku that he's an alien, he does so by saying he's not one of this planet's ningen. Does mortal make sense there? I mean, it's not technically wrong, but it really doesn't make much sense in that context. Why would Raditz be talking about either Goku's ability to die or his lack of divinity? Or how about those jinzoningen? Sure, you could translate it as Android, why not? But if you go a bit more literally, you'd get Artificial... Mortal? I mean, I suppose that could work in reference to their apparent non-aging. But if we're using the term "mortal" in this series to mean non-gods, then again, like with Raditz, why would this be coming up now? No one's comparing them to gods. Well, you might argue for a more context-sensitive translation, where, since the word has multiple valid translations, that you use what works best in each individual context. And so you'd say that, there, "human" makes more sense, since most of those guys look like modified "real world" humans anyway. Okay, so what about when those Artificial Humans refer to characters like Vegeta as "ningen"? So it's a non-god referring to another non-god as "mortal"? I don't see how that makes any contextual sense. I mean, the context would definitely lean towards "human" in that case since you have an Artificial Human comparing himself to a regular human. But people balking at Saiyans being referred to as humans is how we got in this mess in the first place, so what do you do? Just ignore the line entirely? Rewrite it to edge around the offending word?

So, yeah, "ningen" works as "human" in Dragon Ball much, much, much better than it does as "mortal."
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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:51 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:I think the only way to make that work would be if you made a conscious effort as a translator to purge the series of all instances of "immortal" and "immortality" and instead sub in a synonym like "eternal life."
But that's exactly what it means in many works of fantasy and sci-fi. 'Immortal' beings are beings that are don't die of natural causes. They don't die of age or illness, as opposed to 'mortals', who do. Not to mention that the arc makes it clear that Zamasu's problem isn't with human beings alone, but any sapient living being, be it from Earth or somewhere else (see Babarians), who he sees as inferior to the superior and enlightened gods.

So 'humans' is a very limited term and even if we are to extrapolate it to any being with humanoid features, it's still limited and contradicts his previous actions and overall argument.

Unless it's translated in a case by case basis, if we are to pick one I'd say 'mortal' is much more appropriate since it applies to every instance it is uttered.

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:34 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:Unless it's translated in a case by case basis, if we are to pick one I'd say 'mortal' is much more appropriate since it applies to every instance it is uttered.
Except for every instance I listed in my post below the spot you quoted where it does not fit even remotely, like with Raditz or with the Artificial Humans or with Ginyu (to throw one more in). You're certainly free to make a case for mortal, and you have. Like I said, neither fits perfectly in a "real-world" context, so each one has advantages and disadvantages here, and both are limited to an extent. I just don't feel like you really even read my post all the way through before you responded to it.

But in regards to what I think of as the "Elf Argument," correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing in Dragon Ball that says gods are ageless beings in line with that. They might have longer lifespans (but then again, so do many humans, like the Muten Roshi, Uranai Baba, and Tao Pai Pai), but they still have finite lifespans. God outright says so. The Elder Kaioshin implies so. The fact of the matter is, Dragon Ball is very vague when it comes to what specifically makes a god different from a non-god. But mortality is one of the few criteria that is least different between them.

Personally, if you haven't, I'd recommend checking out Herms's The Human Condition guide, written six years before Zamasu was even a thing, which has a comprehensive list of so many instances where "ningen" was used where it has nothing to do with distinguishing a god from a non-god.
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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:02 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Except for every instance I listed in my post below the spot you quoted where it does not fit even remotely, like with Raditz or with the Artificial Humans or with Ginyu (to throw one more in).
Maybe I should have clarified, I was specifically refering to the Future Trunks arc from Super. Of course the context may change (and does) in other story arcs, specially in the case of Raditz. So context must always be taken into account, which I defend and agree with you on.
Gaffer Tape wrote:You're certainly free to make a case for mortal, and you have. Like I said, neither fits perfectly in a "real-world" context, so each one has advantages and disadvantages here, and both are limited to an extent. I just don't feel like you really even read my post all the way through before you responded to it.
I did and I agree with parts of it, I merely quoted the part where I disagree.
Gaffer Tape wrote:But in regards to what I think of as the "Elf Argument," correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing in Dragon Ball that says gods are ageless beings in line with that.
I was talking about age/illness as examples of natural causes of death. I don't think it was ever specifically established that gods in the DB universe die of old age, despite the fact that they obviously age as time goes on.

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:05 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:I was talking about age/illness as examples of natural causes of death. I don't think it was ever specifically established that gods in the DB universe die of old age, despite the fact that they obviously age as time goes on.
It’s been implied that the Gods of Destruction do eventually die of old age, considering that they can have successors.

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:07 pm

Even though 'Ningen' means 'Human' in Japanese, I prefer 'Mortal'. It seems more logical to me. For example, Zamasu hates animals too, yet animals are obviously not humans, so the term 'mortals' makes more sense (referred to anyone who isn't a deity, not to anyone who can die in general).

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:43 pm

WittyUsername wrote:It’s been implied that the Gods of Destruction do eventually die of old age, considering that they can have successors.
The two aren't mutually exclusive.

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:28 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:It’s been implied that the Gods of Destruction do eventually die of old age, considering that they can have successors.
The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I never suggested that they were. I’m just saying that there is a case to be made for gods dying of old age in the Dragon Ball world.

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Logania » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:22 pm

Depends for me.

If it's just regular use when referring to people in the show, I like to use 'human'. However, when it's Zamasu racist time, I prefer 'mortal'. Whatever rolls off the tongue and sounds the most natural in the situation.
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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Pantalones » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:00 am

"Ningen" can translate as the specific "human"... and also the more general "person/people." It doesn't necessarily have the connotations that the English word "human" has -- as in, referring to our species specifically. When someone says "humans" in English it means humans, Homo sapiens, those mostly hairless upright-walking ape things that live on the planet Earth. It's basically unheard of for anybody to use "humans" in English to mean anything else. When someone says "ningen" in Japanese, it can mean humans specifically, but it can also mean "people" in general -- in other words, any being with a degree of intelligence, capacity for understanding the feelings of others, and so on. It can be used to mean "anybody who's not a god or demon" -- the "human world" in Buddhism is the world we live in, the physical universe as we know it, as opposed to the various Hells, the realms of the gods and demons and ghosts, and so on. This should be sounding familiar to anyone who's familiar with Zamasu's usage of the word.

"Ningen" is basically the same word as "jin," as seen in names like Saiya-jin. If I recall correctly it's even written with the same kanji used for "jin," just with an additional one after it (which comes from the Buddhist usage mentioned above.) But nobody refers to Saiyans as "Saiya Humans" or Namekians as "Planet Namek Humans" or Garlic Jr.'s race as "Makyo Star Humans," do they? Nope, because for some reason "-jin" on species names tends to be translated correctly in context, even though some people insist on forcing "human" as the only translation of "ningen."

Translating "ningen" as "human" in any situation where it's not specifically referring to Homo sapiens is Super Dumb: no longer merely regular ol' dumb, it has ascended to a new form that's 50 times dumber and comes with its own aura and sound effect! It's ignoring the connotations of the word in the language you're translating to for the sake of an awkward old-bad-fansub "TORANKUSU, PIKKORO, BEJIITA"-style overly-literal translation. It'd be like never pluralizing "Dragon Ball" in English even when you're talking about multiple balls, just because the Japanese language doesn't do plurals like that and you want to be completely faithful to the original language... whether or not that means having a working translation. "We have six Dragon Ball, now we just need one more!" Doesn't that sound... bad?? Wrong? So bad/wrong that it needs a new word like badong to describe how bad/wrong it sounds? That's how I feel when people talk about Ginyu being a "human," or Zamasu wanting to kill all the "humans."

Translating it as "mortal" in every situation doesn't work either, of course. It'd be silly for mortals to go around describing themselves as "mortals" unless they're making a comparison to the gods or something. It works perfectly for Zamasu's usage of the word, though, since he's using "ningen" in the "normal beings, residents of the mortal universe" sense, as a direct contrast to the higher beings like gods and demons and angels.

I'd say for general usage, something like "people" or "beings" works best. Think about Ginyu's description of himself using "ningen" -- wouldn't "person/being" work a whole lot better than "human?" Better yet, it's normal usage for either word in English to be applies to an obviously-not-human purple horned vein-headed alien... so it wouldn't require some awkward fan-theory that "Dragonball counts all of its aliens as humans, because... uh... well, no reason really, I just wanted to translate 'ningen' as 'human' every time." There's a few situations where "humanoid" would work pretty well (Saiyans describing their base form in contrast to Oozaru; they go from beings with a humanoid size/shape to gigantic monkey monsters.) I could also see "man" being used in the situation of the base vs. Oozaru Saiyans; sort of a "man vs. beast" deal. Words like man/woman/etc. aren't as species specific as "human" so they work pretty well when describing similar species like Saiyans, or even less-similar aliens who are still humanoid in shape.

Basically, context is important and there is no "one size fits all" translation for "ningen." The "but Dragonball considers all alien races to be humans!" baloney is nothing but a fan-theory made up by people who want to force "human" as the only translation of "ningen."

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Re: Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:05 am

Pantalones wrote:(...)
Precisely.

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