Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

[90sDBZ]

I've always loved the form and how it represents the full fruits of Goku's training, and also how it's presented as a risky and dangerous form that comes at a cost.

What I'm curious about is why Toriyama introduced it in the first place. It seems like he went completely out of his way to introduce it. Firstly having the Dragon Radar being left behind as a plot device, and then having it so Goku sends Trunks to get it instead of teleporting straight there himself. And even then you could argue he could have stalled Buu with SS2 seeing as Vegeta lasted awhile with it. And that's another thing. By introducing SS3 Toriyama made Goku's lines about using his full power on Majin Vegeta and it being impossible to beat Buu alone flat out untrue.

I don't know at what point Toriyama decided that Goku would eventually return as the main protagonist, but if he was still planning on Goku staying dead at the time then maybe he wanted to give him one last battle against a big bad as a final send off for him. Kind of like a Rocky Balboa vs Mason Dixon situation I guess. And giving him SS3 certainly would have made it a memorable send off for him too. Either way I'm sure fans would have been disappointed if Goku had gone back to Otherworld without fighting Buu at least once.

What do you guys think the reason behind SS3 was?

[Kamiccolo9]

Maybe to give a more distinctive look for Gotenks? That would have been around the same time as the concept for Gotenks would have been introduced in the manga, and it's nice (and gives more merchandising opportunities) for the new character to have a new form. Goku having it provides a way for him to remain relevant and inspire the kids to get it, helping out with the whole "passing the torch" thing that runs through the first 3/4 of the Buu Arc. And then Toriyama changed his mind, and had Goku save the day anyway, but whatevs.

[sintzu]

He probably introduced it to show the results of Goku's training in otherworld as it'd be a bit anticlimactic for him to just have Ssj2 when Vegeta reached on earth without any special training. It also makes Goku an even more badass and who doesn't like serious badass Goku ?

I do like the fact that it wasn't introduced at the end to beat the main villain as the way it and Kid Buu were handled were a complete departure from what came before, especially against Freeza and Cell.

[PacificOceanDub]

He probably introduced it to show the results of Goku's training in otherworld as it'd be a bit anticlimactic for him to just have Ssj2 when Vegeta reached on earth without any special training.

These are my thoughts exactly, there’s no way Goku was going to stop at Super Saiyan 2 now that he had an eternity to train in Other World. The only gripe I have is that using the form subtracts from his time on Earth. That never really made sense to me. If anything, it should have just been too energy consuming to maintain for long. Which it is, but that shouldn’t also affect Goku’s time

[Lord Beerus]

I think it was done purely for shock value. The form had zero build up and no pay off in any battle it was featured in.

But I guess you could also say that the SSJ3 form was meant to exemplify the significance in Goku keeping up with his training in the afterlife and gaining a new form as a result of his hard -- which also serves as a contrast to Gohan who didn't keep up with his training and became much weaker because of it.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Personally I don't think SS3 was supposed to be used/seen again after that moment showing it off to Buu, Toriyama basically used SS3 as the reason to have Goku leave the story and so I think that's why SS3 looks the way it does too, Toriyama was probably like screw it I'll go all crazy with SS3, let's be honest SS3 design does feel very un-Toriyama like, then he probably grew to like the form and gave it to Gotenks and then obviously Goku came back.

That is the way the I see it.

[90sDBZ]

He probably introduced it to show the results of Goku's training in otherworld as it'd be a bit anticlimactic for him to just have Ssj2 when Vegeta reached on earth without any special training. It also makes Goku an even more badass and who doesn't like serious badass Goku ?

I do like the fact that it wasn't introduced at the end to beat the main villain as the way it and Kid Buu were handled were a complete departure from what came before, especially against Freeza and Cell.

It's definitely a badass form, made even moreso by the fact that Goku has to play down how awesome it is when trying to convince the boys to do fusion. He just randomly busts it out, and everyone else is amazed by it while he's just like "Nah it ain't that awesome". Actually it sort feels like a throwback to Kaioken with the risks involved with it and even King Kai's reaction to Goku using it. And I agree that not having SS3 finishing off Buu was a welcome change in formula.

I think it was done purely for shock value. The form had zero build up and no pay off in any battle it was featured in.

I wouldn't say it had zero payoff. Goku would have almost certainly been killed by Kid Buu without it. Same with Gotenks and Super Buu.

Personally I don't think SS3 was supposed to be used/seen again after that moment showing it off to Buu, Toriyama basically used SS3 as the reason to have Goku leave the story and so I think that's why SS3 looks the way it does too, Toriyama was probably like screw it I'll go all crazy with SS3, let's be honest SS3 design does feel very un-Toriyama like, then he probably grew to like the form and gave it to Gotenks and then obviously Goku came back.

That is the way the I see it.

It's definitely a possibility, but to be fair the Buu Saga is pretty crazy and OTT in general.

[ABED]

and then having it so Goku sends Trunks to get it instead of teleporting straight there himself.

IN the 20 years since I read and watched DB, how the hell did this plot hole go over my head? Man, that is some fridge logic.

[KBABZ]

I agree with the outlook that it's to show Goku's training in Other World, and it does lead into some moments much later (which Toriyama probably didn't have in mind at the time), like how impractical it ultimately is with its energy drain. It emphasizes his outlook during Cell in that power-ups are great and all, but if you don't work on your base form's ability then the forms will come back to bite you. Which comes up a lot actually, Kaio-Ken had the same effect if you relied on it too much, as did the whole Ascended Super Saiyan thing.

Per that, Toriyama's subversive introduction of it makes sense and is rather unique. Ultimately Goku is stalling here; him floating around having a dialogue with Buu would stall for a lot longer than if anyone, including him, just straight-up fought him, and Super Saiyan 3 taking a long time to charge up further aids his cause there. And something tells me he also wanted to have an audience with Buu there and ask why he's doing Babidi's bidding.

[90sDBZ]

and then having it so Goku sends Trunks to get it instead of teleporting straight there himself.

IN the 20 years since I read and watched DB, how the hell did this plot hole go over my head? Man, that is some fridge logic.

Ikr. The only way I could think of justifying it is that maybe Goku secretly reeeaaally wanted to have a crack at Buu before leaving again. It would definitely be in character, but then again he does try and stall Buu by talking first so... yeah I got nothing.

Per that, Toriyama's subversive introduction of it makes sense and is rather unique. Ultimately Goku is stalling here; him floating around having a dialogue with Buu would stall for a lot longer than if anyone, including him, just straight-up fought him, and Super Saiyan 3 taking a long time to charge up further aids his cause there. And something tells me he also wanted to have an audience with Buu there and ask why he's doing Babidi's bidding.

I agree that the long time required for the transformation does fit the purpose of stalling well. What's interesting is how fast he transforms later against Buutenks and Kid Buu. Maybe he intentionally dragged the transforming process out against Fat Buu to play for time? And yeah now that I think about it the Babidi theory makes sense too.

[ABED]

It emphasizes his outlook during Cell in that power-ups are great and all, but if you don't work on your base form's ability then the forms will come back to bite you.

It's a different set of trade offs. The different grades of SSJ gave power boosts but sacrifices speed. SSJ3 increases both speed and strength, but at the cost of energy consumption. Also, Goku didn't realize until later that his body in the afterlife is more durable so the trade off wasn't noticable. I like that, just like the drawbacks of the Kaio-ken as you noted. It's dramatically more interesting (most of the time) than a straight up transformation that feels like an easy out for the writer if there are no drawbacks. The moment where Goku can't gather the required energy against Kid Buu was a good reversal.

[Omniboy]

and then having it so Goku sends Trunks to get it instead of teleporting straight there himself.

IN the 20 years since I read and watched DB, how the hell did this plot hole go over my head? Man, that is some fridge logic.

Ikr. The only way I could think of justifying it is that maybe Goku secretly reeeaaally wanted to have a crack at Buu before leaving again. It would definitely be in character, but then again he does try and stall Buu by talking first so... yeah I got nothing.

Well in all fairness, he does need to sense other people's energy so he can know where to go, and the energy of the people there are too weak for him to detect... but at the same time he has been there before, hasn't he? I mean unless he forgot the direction to West City, I don't see much justification in this mistake as well.

[ABED]

I thought of that and I don't recall, but are normal humans, even ones he has met, too weak for him to sense?

[90sDBZ]

Another thing I thought of regarding the limitations of SS3 is how we never see Goku use it without some added hindrance. Against Fat Buu his being on earth further limits the time he can stay in it. Against Kid Buu he's in the realm of the dead but he's back in his living body. The only time we see him use it while dead and in otherworld at the same time is Movie 12.

IN the 20 years since I read and watched DB, how the hell did this plot hole go over my head? Man, that is some fridge logic.

Ikr. The only way I could think of justifying it is that maybe Goku secretly reeeaaally wanted to have a crack at Buu before leaving again. It would definitely be in character, but then again he does try and stall Buu by talking first so... yeah I got nothing.

Well in all fairness, he does need to sense other people's energy so he can know where to go, and the energy of the people there are too weak for him to detect... but at the same time he has been there before, hasn't he? I mean unless he forgot the direction to West City, I don't see much justification in this mistake as well.

Well he did manage to lock onto Bulma's Ki in West City earlier so you'd think he'd manage to do the same with her parents.

[Banana]

I thought of that and I don't recall, but are normal humans, even ones he has met, too weak for him to sense?

and then having it so Goku sends Trunks to get it instead of teleporting straight there himself.

IN the 20 years since I read and watched DB, how the hell did this plot hole go over my head? Man, that is some fridge logic.

I thought about that too and eh it wasn't really a plot hole... someone had to go get it whether it was Trunks or Goten and it made more sense with Trunks being a Capsule Corp kid that he may have an idea where the radar was. (In the end, though, as they tore the whole place apart that was moot.)

Goku literally was trying to buy time and he was the only one with enough power who could. He wasn't trying to buy time more for Trunks to get the radar which was how it was seen, but moreso instead to get Babidi and Buu to stop with the needless destruction. That could only be done for so long however, and by the time Trunks came back, Goku was too exhausted to hold them off longer. As it was a gigantic risk to send Trunks out however, since Babidi and Buu were looking for him, Goku was essentially trying to stall to protect Trunks. If Goku wouldn't have teleported, just grabbed the radar, and not done all of that, the world would have been destroyed sooner and maybe Babidi and Buu would have found the upper realm. It could have played out very differently.

Granted, new battle new forms, I think also SSJ3 was just the logical progression.

Well in all fairness, he does need to sense other people's energy so he can know where to go, and the energy of the people there are too weak for him to detect... but at the same time he has been there before, hasn't he? I mean unless he forgot the direction to West City, I don't see much justification in this mistake as well.

He did want to get there instantaneously to protect Trunks. Direction has nothing to do with it.

I thought of that and I don't recall, but are normal humans, even ones he has met, too weak for him to sense?

Nope- he's not familiar with who they are. He needs to sense and understand their ki and he doesn't know them as people. Bulma's parents though- that would have been a plot hole under the previous line of thinking but that wasn't the point- I firmly believe he was seeking out Babidi and Buu in order to protect Trunks

[ABED]

i'm willing to let Toriyama off the hook for SSJ3 reducing Goku's time on Earth. Even given willing suspension of disbelief, it doesn't make sense. The reason I give it a pass is because it's a hinderence.

I also don't think Goku giving Buu that challenge helped anything. Their fight didn't stop Buu from destroying everything after he issued the challenge.

Nope- he's not familiar with who they are.

Goku has met Bulma's parents several times. Off the top of my head, first when he went to West City to find Bulma during the RRA arc, and again right before he left for Namek. Dr. Brief is the one that built his spaceship.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

I thought of that and I don't recall, but are normal humans, even ones he has met, too weak for him to sense?

I don't think so. When Goku first demonstrated the Instantaneous Movement ability, he locked on to Muten Roshi without really taking the time to search him out. If that isn't enough, he then later locks on to Bulma while she and Dr. Brief are attempting to repair #16 (he needed the Dragon Radar).

It seems that if Goku has a special link with a character, he can feel out their ki no matter how weak it may be.


SSJ3 seems to have been introduced for a variety of reasons: sub-versing expectations, poking fun at another SSJ transformation, and merchandising come to mind. I like it as a result of Goku's special training in the afterlife, and yet it looks so crazy on him.

[Banana]

i'm willing to let Toriyama off the hook for SSJ3 reducing Goku's time on Earth. Even given willing suspension of disbelief, it doesn't make sense. The reason I give it a pass is because it's a hinderence.

I also don't think Goku giving Buu that challenge helped anything. Their fight didn't stop Buu from destroying everything after he issued the challenge.

Nope- he's not familiar with who they are.

Goku has met Bulma's parents several times. Off the top of my head, first when he went to West City to find Bulma during the RRA arc, and again right before he left for Namek. Dr. Brief is the one that built his spaceship.

You're right about it not actually stopping Buu and Babidi but there was that hope, and Goku's actions were prolonging everything which was my main point. Also why everyone was freaking out about not having the dragon radar.

I wasn't clear on that part- I know full well that occurred lol that's obvious. I meant the "he doesn't know who they were" in regards to the people of Metro West (not including Bulma's parents.) Like in the sense that someone may be familiar with and see a movie that they like, then they'll want to seek out and maybe meet the actors of the main characters at their next public appearance but the person isn't going to give a crap about meeting the numerous extras in the film. Just an example and I digress but I hope that made sense.

[Omniboy]

Well he did manage to lock onto Bulma's Ki in West City earlier so you'd think he'd manage to do the same with her parents.

True. I would assume that he could also know their ki signature as well, since he familiar with them to.

I thought of that and I don't recall, but are normal humans, even ones he has met, too weak for him to sense?

Well, no. Apparently as I was reminded, he could also sense Bulma's ki. This is just an oversight on Toriyama's part.

Now, that I am curious, I'm actually wondering how many more oversights there are in DBZ. I am just now learning about this plot hole and now I'm wondering how many other's I have missed.

[KBABZ]

Per that, Toriyama's subversive introduction of it makes sense and is rather unique. Ultimately Goku is stalling here; him floating around having a dialogue with Buu would stall for a lot longer than if anyone, including him, just straight-up fought him, and Super Saiyan 3 taking a long time to charge up further aids his cause there. And something tells me he also wanted to have an audience with Buu there and ask why he's doing Babidi's bidding.

I agree that the long time required for the transformation does fit the purpose of stalling well. What's interesting is how fast he transforms later against Buutenks and Kid Buu. Maybe he intentionally dragged the transforming process out against Fat Buu to play for time? And yeah now that I think about it the Babidi theory makes sense too.

I agree on the dragged-out transformation, and to a certain extent I think you do have a degree of control over how quickly you can "activate" them. For example, on Namek Goku's original SS transformation (in the anime at least) had a fair bit of pre-amble. But when Frieza attacks him after he gives up, he switches it back on *snap* just like that. I think it goes hand-in-hand with being able to charge your ki for dramatic effect.

It emphasizes his outlook during Cell in that power-ups are great and all, but if you don't work on your base form's ability then the forms will come back to bite you.

It's a different set of trade offs. The different grades of SSJ gave power boosts but sacrifices speed. SSJ3 increases both speed and strength, but at the cost of energy consumption. Also, Goku didn't realize until later that his body in the afterlife is more durable so the trade off wasn't noticable. I like that, just like the drawbacks of the Kaio-ken as you noted. It's dramatically more interesting (most of the time) than a straight up transformation that feels like an easy out for the writer if there are no drawbacks. The moment where Goku can't gather the required energy against Kid Buu was a good reversal.

And the trade-offs make it more interesting! Even by the Android arc, Super Saiyan was just a thing you could do with no appreciable trade-offs, and Goku and Gohan worked to give it none whatsoever, so it isn't interesting and just becomes a default state you enter before fighting. Kaio Ken is cool as a technique because yeah, you could multiply it to huge amounts, but you mess yourself up after using it so it has no long-term gain. It feeds into that battle-strategy angle that Goku is good at reading. And I think a lot of folks also don't realize another facet of most Super Saiyan forms that add to the strategy: that it's a multiplier, not a "Jump to X,000 power" (if Goku were to use Super Saiyan as a child, he wouldn't have the power to defeat Frieza).

The trade-offs are what make the fight interesting and have more immediate stakes, as exemplified by Kaio Ken. Super Saiyan 3 is a drastic energy drain, an Ascended Super Saiyan cuts your speed. That's probably what makes the forms introduced in Super not as interesting in a fight, because they don't have any trade-off element outside of being hard to unlock for the first time.

Now, that I am curious, I'm actually wondering how many more oversights there are in DBZ. I am just now learning about this plot hole and now I'm wondering how many other's I have missed.

My favourite as I learned on the podcast is that the Dragon Balls require a year to turn back to gemstones, but when Goku sets out for them at the start of the Red Ribbon arc, it's only been eight months since the Pilaf incident!