The issue regarding power scaling (and the Earthlings)

[Attitudefan]

Please watch this video: Japan Doesn't Like Tien. This video gave me the idea to start this thread.

In the video, the narrator makes a few good points about the misuse of the earthlings and certain power scaling issues.

The first issue is that someone like Tien, who trains all the time, and had a past in training in the martial arts to kill, cannot make any progress. However, Roshi is able to make better progress despite his arc being over after being outclassed by Tenshinhan. How can Krillin, Gohan, and others who stop training and become accustomed to other lifestyles, still outclass Tenshinhan? The argument that, "oh they're battle power level is just stronger." While that is a nice and easy way to look at the fighting in the series, it was Toriyama who went against this notion (at least established this concept at first... the Freeza arc could be argued that this was not really the case. More on that later). It was Raditz who was beaten because the earthlings showed techniques that raised their power and that technique outdoes pure power. Tien has the Kikoho and the Dondon pa as attacks that not only raise battle power, but are more effective than the Kamehameha. The Dondon pa can be used faster than the Kamehameha with just as much damaging force. The point is that techniques and martial arts philosophy are concepts that outdo plain old ki powered attacks. There are examples in the show where it is established that technique of Earth is dangerous and can be used to defeat more powerful foes. Hence, Vegeta discards the use of his scouter to essentially say battle powers are useless against Earth fighters (and yet people still debate power levels... nevermind that).

That goes into the second point. Yes, Goku and Freeza duke it out with giant power boosts and attempt to kill each other without any regard to the nuances of fighting technique. However, earlier in the arc, Vegeta makes a great point: Gohan could become the most powerful fighter from "zenkai" boosts if he were made immortal but would never win a fight because he has no experience. That makes logical sense to me. At that point, Gohan seen one fight in his life, so even if his body was indestructible, he would lose to fights against professional fighters. Yet, Gohan becomes the best fighter despite that lack of experience. He trains a total of 5 times in his life and still bests men like Vegeta or even Yamcha and Tenshinhan. Tien had been fighting and training his whole life and has no other hobbies or work other than that. His goal in life is to best Goku (in Super, he even has a school). This man eats, sleeps, bleeds training and yet non-fighters like Gohan and older aged Krillin still can be shown as better fighters after a few days of training.

The third point is how the Eathlings were able to keep up at an older age, starting training regimes later in life, yet keeping up with Goku and Piccolo. To say the Earthlings have a cap on their abilities is shown otherwise countless times, and have shown to be better than the aliens. Heck, even as stated before, Earth was unique because the Earthlings were able to keep up and best aliens through their special environment for training (such as with Kami and Korin) and raise their battle power/ki potency through those techniques learned. Yamcha, Krillin, and Tenshinhan were able to be up to Goku's level with lower hierarchical training (training with Korin once yet being close to Goku's level with Kami etc). Goku was able to best Vegeta using techniques from godly schools, such as the King Kai Fist (Kaioken) technique. Roshi is now shown to break through his plateau at an advanced age and be one of the strongest humans, stronger than most aliens even. Yet Yamcha and Tien are stuck under the glass ceiling because they are human? Nonsense!

To me, all of this shows that Earthlings have a better potential than Saiyans and other aliens. Saiyans train and fight their whole lives, but most were on the level of Raditz (if not all but the elite such as Nappa and Prince Vegeta). Same goes for Freeza's henchmen. The Earthlings, however, are shown to learn new ways to level up and become better fighters until they hit the glass ceiling for no reason other than they are not Saiyans with zenkai boosts. This is not good enough for me to accept. It is a major shame to the franchise that the main side characters to Goku from the 80s have been brushed aside when their potential is there.

[AnzuMazaki]

The power scaling and the franchise's insistence that Yamcha and Tenshinhan remain memes while everyone else gets stronger is my least favourite part of late Dragon Ball.
I wish they would get stronger and get a redemption arc but alas....

[Attitudefan]

The power scaling and the franchise's insistence that Yamcha and Tenshinhan remain memes while everyone else gets stronger is my least favourite part of late Dragon Ball.
I wish they would get stronger and get a redemption arc but alas....

Or if not pushing them forward, take them out of that character arc. Yamcha kind of got this... but not really. It would be interesting if his profession as a baseball star went somewhere, more than gags at least. Tenshinhan is basically a dead character. His progression has stopped since the Saiyan arc. At this point, he might have just been better off dead.

One thing I give Jojo's Bizarre adventure credit is how, if a character has finished their story arc (they cannot get any stronger or that the next foe would be more or less a rehash in some way) change the setting and even the protagonist. I think Toriyama might have been going this direction with Gohan, but was not able to go forward with it. Rather than having clever scenarios other characters can do to help get out of a problem, it ends up just being about power and Goku's abilities. Hence, other characters are unable to do anything and if they do it seems unrealistic given the previous context of Goku saving the day.

[ABED]

Redemption means they did something wrong.

I like the role Tenshinhan served in the Cell and Buu arcs, though I wish what little he did amounted to more. It's like Yajirobe cutting off Vegeta's tail. He does one thing in that arc, but what he does is vital to the heroes' victory. One thing I like about Tenshinhan is that regardless of how outpaced he is, he still strives to get stronger.

[Attitudefan]

Redemption means they did something wrong.

I like the role Tenshinhan served in the Cell and Buu arcs, though I wish what little he did amounted to more. It's like Yajirobe cutting off Vegeta's tail. He does one thing in that arc, but what he does is vital to the heroes' victory. One thing I like about Tenshinhan is that regardless of how outpaced he is, he still strives to get stronger.

Doesn't answer the question of why he is outpaced. Even Krillin keeps better pace despite him settling down and having a family. So, why?

[sintzu]

The earthlings had major problems trying to keep up with Goku when he was just a kid being trained on earth. Now he's being trained by the likes of Whis and has 8 transformations, there's really no way fro them to be in that same field as he and Vegeta are.

[Attitudefan]

The earthlings had major problems trying to keep up with Goku when he was just a kid being trained on earth. Now he's being trained by the likes of Whis and has 8 transformations, there's really no way fro them to be in that same field as he and Vegeta are.

Depends on what the writer really wants. In canon, the earthlings showed better potential training with the gods than Goku did. Going into the Saiyan arc, the earthlings were "more powerful" than Goku was training with the same masters. On that note, Vegeta was shown to have less potential despite his greater experiences. He was unable to get more powerful and even be able to sense ki. It's his time on earth that shows he has opportunity to get beyond his current plateau.

What's worse though, is Gohan, who has maybe a max of 5 years of training with only maybe a handful of fights under his belt, is a better martial artist than Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, and even Chiaotzu. Gohan was in the lowest tier of fighters until, for plot convenience, he was better than everyone at the end of the Cell arc.

[LuckyCat]

Gohan was in the lowest tier of fighters until, for plot convenience, he was better than everyone at the end of the Cell arc.

Gohan had the highest raw power of any fighter when he was introduced. It’s suggested that when Saiyans and humans mix blood they create formidable offspring. A little training made Gohan stronger than everyone but Goku when the Saiyans arrived. And, if your overall theory about human potential is correct, Gohan should fit in that category as well as whatever boosts he gets from being Saiyan.

[Attitudefan]

Gohan was in the lowest tier of fighters until, for plot convenience, he was better than everyone at the end of the Cell arc.

Gohan had the highest raw power of any fighter when he was introduced. It’s suggested that when Saiyans and humans mix blood they create formidable offspring. A little training made Gohan stronger than everyone but Goku when the Saiyans arrived. And, if your overall theory about human potential is correct, Gohan should fit in that category as well as whatever boosts he gets from being Saiyan.

I agree. But still, is it correct to state that raw power doesn't mean they can still win? Should the humans have still fell as far behind?

[LuckyCat]

But still, is it correct to state that raw power doesn't mean they can still win? Should the humans have still fell as far behind?

They fell behind because none of them trained in the RoSAT. Gohan wasn’t just suddenly strongest, he had the highest potential and he trained in a crazy harsh environment with Goku, the best martial artist. Thus, it seems logically consistent Gohan would be the strongest at that point. Maybe the problem with humans isn’t their potential, but that they lack a certain masochism that Saiyans have that allows them to endure tortuous levels of training.