Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat May 05, 2018 3:18 am

ABED wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:I want it to become a series where there is no main character and there are multiple high profile characters.

We are at a point where there are so many characters that can easily move things forward without Goku's help. We have many universes with Universe 6, 7 and 11 being the main ones.

Goku is still always around but just not the main focus all the time and is not saved by the plot to have the last main fight. It will always create unpredictability and multiple characters get meaningful things to do.
Why do you want DB without Goku as the main character?

Not having a main character doesn't mean the stories will be more unpredictable and could very well end up making the stories feel even less focused since it's trying to service too many important stories.
What is Goku's story? Just fighting the next strong guy. He can do that but he doesn't need to do everything else.

In Super, Goku is put into every episode for no reason. At times it feels like Goku is the only character that matters. There are so many characters that could have done things but they always give it to Goku.

It does make it predictable as Goku is always saved by plot to fight the antagonist at the end and by some unusual reason save Universe 7.

I have always been more of a fan of multiple top tier characters instead of one main character, especially as a series progresses and every character gets more developed. It just makes things more interesting. They are always focused on the same thing due to some antagonist so there won't be less focus and it is just what they do while the antagonist is around. It is simply just boring seeing Goku do all the meaningful talking and fighting while everyone else is just background filler.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by Lupin Vegeta » Sat May 05, 2018 6:38 am

Ab-so-lute-ly not.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat May 05, 2018 7:19 am

There's a lot to unpack here, so I'm gonna try and bullet point my way through this:


- All of these arguments about "How should Dragon Ball continue?" never fail to utterly mystify me. When you find yourself at a point where you're genuinely questioning how or why a series ought to continue forward... generally that might be seen as an excellent place where maybe it might be wise to just, I don't know, STOP and end it already because you have no place else left to go. No one to this point has EVER given me a particularly compelling answer for exactly WHY they still want Dragon Ball to continue on with new material that extends beyond "Muh childhood!".

The only people that new Dragon Ball material ultimately benefits are the suits at Toei: they're ultimately going to be the main push that keeps this series going, even well after Toriyama's half-hearted one-foot-in/one-foot-out stint back on it inevitably comes to an end. We now have a "Dragon Ball Room" for Christ's sake: in all the years this franchise has existed, beyond some filler episodes for the old anime, its almost NEVER had ANYTHING like a dedicated "writer's room" before acting as the center nucleus of it. Because up till this point, it was largely auteur-driven: the center nucleus was Toriyama's imagination. And when an auteur-driven piece suddenly finds itself saddled with a writer's room after the auteur has (mostly) left the building... historically speaking, that has almost NEVER boded well and is generally a sign that the creative well has run dry and we're mainly sticking it out on sheer momentum and dollar signs.

Again, I'm not talking about Toei's annual financial bottom line: we know damn well how having more Dragon Ball affects THAT. And its beyond twisted and depressing that so many average fans find themselves so immensely wrapped up and invested in that corporate/financial aspect of Dragon Ball (and other franchises like it) to begin with by the way, and devote themselves to following things like the merch sales and TV ratings as if they're fans of a sports team cheering them on during the playoff season.

News flash for all the "sales watchers" out here: Toei breaking record profits on new DB merch DOESN'T mean that you all somehow get a piece of that action... you all just look like sad, pathetic clowns cheering on the continued creative dilution of something you all purport to love and care about artistically whilst getting absolutely NOTHING else out of it in return but more substandard material to be continually disappointed by and to bitch about while faceless strangers you'll never know far, far away get all the profit from it.

Profit that comes in part directly out of YOUR collective wallets (assuming you're spending money on any of this), so you're effectively PAYING to be disappointed time and time again, paying money out of your own wallet (or god help them, your parents'/family's) to have something you love be continually tarnished, even as you continue to hate-watch it and masochistically demand more of it even AS its letting you down continuously every step of the way; if ever the otherwise godawful ridiculous and asinine term "cuck" could ACTUALLY be properly applied somewhere...

No, rather I mean from a sheer creative standpoint, and from purely an audience/common fan's perspective, irrespective of Toei's financial considerations: what the fuck actual reason is there to continue on with a series that had already lasted more than a solid decade with over 40+ manga volumes, 400/500 TV anime episodes, dozens of theatrical anime films, and enough video games to keep any one person occupied for almost a lifetime or so? Why this perpetual need to just churn out more DB content just for the sake of having it? What is the problem with just accepting that it had its run, it was a long and dense run that many things never even get to have, it ended with more or less as satisfying a sense of closure as most things get to have, and just closing the book on it for good like we had already done all the way the fuck back in goddamned 1997?

All the more so when it's STILL managed to thrive and persist onward in further building its audience and maintaining immense amounts of cultural relevance even well long many years/decades AFTER its been over and done with and new Dragon Ball content of any sort (other than video games) hasn't been a thing since Bill Clinton was still in office, Tamagotchi's and the Macarena were still a thing, the PS1 was barely two years old and still ruled the gaming roost, 9/11 was still another five or so years off, social media as we know it today didn't at all exist, the Star Wars special editions had JUST come out and the prequels were still a couple years off (and people were still genuinely bugfuck over the moon excited for them), and when well more than half (if not three quarters) of Dragon Ball's present fanbase were either still in diapers or still swimming around inside their father's scrotum?

An astounding feat which almost NOBODY seems to really take much time to marvel at the utterly INSANE magnitude of.

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- And speaking of Star Wars; I want to be upfront that I personally also think that the new Star Wars films are indeed utter crap. BUT it has NOTHING to do whatsoever with the new leads. They're (largely) fine. The issue with the new Star Wars films isn't what newness they're bringing to the table: its how stringently they rely on nostalgia for the original trilogy. The Force Awakens is an ungodly dull, boring-ass movie; but it has nothing to do whatsoever with having a black and female lead characters (both of whom are in many instances actually highlights, especially the former): its because new characters aside, its essentially just a beat for beat remake of A New Hope (with even the new characters essentially occupying similar roles as the old ones).

The issue with the new movies is that we've already done this dance before: and doing it all over again is just tiresome and repetitive. Even The Last Jedi, for all its aspirations at bringing "risky and bold new twists" to the table, ultimately still relies WAY too much on concepts, storytelling devices, and even distinctive moments from the original trilogy (namely The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi).

Other than charismatic new cast members, these movies do almost NOTHING whatsoever to justify their existence. The whole reason that they're there at all seems to be "Hey, more Star Wars! More of what you loved as kids!" just for the sake of Disney's profit margins and milking the cow for more nostalgia dollars, and for the public to endlessly wallow in the comforting familiarity of their childhood memories because it doesn't know or seem to grasp how to move the fuck on to new and wholly different things.

Hmmm.... that kinda sounds familiar and like it MIGHT just be related to this other, broader conversation that we're having about Dragon Ball right now actually. :think: :think:

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- All that having been said, I DO actually agree that the character Rey IS in fact a "Mary Sue" in terms of how she's written. She's saved ultimately by a downright fantastic performance from Daisy Ridley, who's just an awesome actress: but as purely written on the page, Rey is kind of an insufferable bore whom the entire plot bends itself over backwards to make into this ultimate beacon of flawless badass perfection without at any point really having to work for it or earn it. That has nothing to do with sexism, reverse sexism, or what have you: its just lazy, hackneyed writing. Period. Finn's great though, both in concept and in execution, and Boyega's also an astoundingly talented actor who brings a ton to the role.

Again, THESE PEOPLE are NOT the problem here: its the writing, and how unoriginal and hopelessly reliant upon the audience's built-in affection for this series it ultimately is. None of this has anywhere else to go, because the story for Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and Leia Organa were all effectively completed in Return of the Jedi. Its digging for gold in a mine that's already been stripped clean eons ago. Its trying to get blood from a stone.

Again, kinda like where we currently find ourselves with Dragon Ball Super.

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- Also yes, these new Star Wars movies are bad for reasons all their own, AND there are (unfortunately) total fucking assholes out there in the world who hate them not for the things they genuinely do wrong narratively (and there's PLENTY there already to dislike) but because those people themselves are wrapped up on the wrong side of the current political climate and they simply don't like seeing a black and female face in their precious nerd franchise (despite there historically ALREADY BEING black and female faces on this franchise to begin with: Leia and Lando both say hello). These people are total reactionary morons, and buying into their nonsense framework for the problems with the new Star Wars movies (by labeling them "SJW trainwrecks") only helps their bullshit agenda and makes you into their useful idiot for helping to propagate and support their entire toxic and skewed framework for this whole dynamic.

By all means, feel free to hate on these movies: I certainly do, and have no shame admitting to it. But hate them for reasons that actually matter and are relevant: like the fact that they're unimaginatively written and conceived, and have no reason to even exist at all other than to cynically milk overly-sentimental nerds of their money for the coffers of a soulless, scum-sucking corporate behemoth like Disney (that could more than stand to lose a few bucks and a few franchises at this point).

Buying into the whole "These movies are horrible because they're pandering to SJWs by having a black and female main character!" makes you into basically sounding like a complete and utter asshole, and needlessly so: and ultimately it'll only make the movies' defenders dig their heels in that much deeper into entrenching themselves in full-on defensive mode rather than winning any of them over to your way of thinking, and round and round the reactionary merry-go-round shall endlessly go.

Even if the place that you're coming from here is more to the point of "Well I personally don't mind there being black and female leads: but I just can't stand the people who defend these movies by calling other people racist or sexist for hating them." That STILL is a stupid and utterly fallacious reason for hating these films, because it has NOTHING to do whatsoever with what the movies themselves are doing wrong, and everything to do with the fanbase surrounding them.

Emotional over-reaction to a given work by its fans is in NO way connected to the actual merits and drawbacks of that given work. If I hated on everything purely due to their having an annoying, moronic, and all around shitty fanbase surrounding them, I wouldn't like basically ANYTHING that exists out there: up to and for damn sure including Dragon Ball itself.

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- And sorry, but people who are overly-sensitive and go vastly overboard calling EVERYONE and everything racist or sexist are NOT somehow inherently WORSE than actual, for-real racism and sexism. Yes they're certainly annoying, obnoxious, and utterly beyond stupid, and they are indeed damaging to the fight against actual racism and sexism by playing boy-who-cried-wolf with it: but that doesn't make them into being somehow even MORE worthy of your scorn and suspicion than the people who are genuinely hateful and resentful of black people and women, to a point where they'll even go so far and be so absurdly petty as to throw shade at their being black and female lead actors being the face of a new Star Wars movie.

That's like a 911 operator who gets a lot of prank calls every night, so then starts regarding EVERY emergency call they ever get with suspicion that its always probably just nothing. When it comes to matters this serious, all it takes is one or a couple of genuine instances, and suddenly real people who are in real trouble suffer severe consequences as a result of our collective negligence and apathy.

As annoying and as douchey as the over-reacting "SJW"-types are (and yes I agree, they are indeed annoying and stupid in a great many instances), they're NOT the ones who are ultimately doing the more comparatively severe damage to the public discourse and to society at large here. Whether you see it or believe it or not, and for all the false-alarms raised by SJWs, the impossible to deny reality is that there are still plenty of genuinely racist, sexist, hatemongers still out there in the world who are still right this very moment trying to spread their toxic sewage ideas, and are unfortunately hooking in more young people in the last several years than they have in recent decades prior; and they're the ones who ultimately thrive off of and benefit the most out of both the SJW's overreaction, and your own overreaction against the SJW's overreaction.

Whether it be SJW-types who overreact against every little inconsequential misdeed and faux pas, or it be people like some of you online who in many cases all you tend to see are SJW-types over-reacting to stupid things and thus treat them as if they're the source of all life's woes: in the end, that reactionary, non-critically nuanced landscape is what's allowing the real monsters of the world to skate by and give their hideous, medieval thoughts a viable platform in 2018. By misidentifying who and what the real problems are, by not thinking critically and rationally and with sound moral judgement and priorities (not to mention without sound historical context), you leave yourselves unknowingly susceptible to the influence of genuinely hateful, vicious people and their ideas.

As with the ACTUAL racist/sexist vitriol that's been spewed against the new Star Wars films (and there definitely has indeed been plenty of that, like it or not), bristling at people who over-zealously call out every person that dislikes the movies as being inherently racist/sexist for disliking them is also rooted in knee-jerk emotional reaction rather than rationality or reason: just like the people who themselves over-zealously lump in all detractors in with racists and sexists are operating on pure emotional knee-jerk reaction.

You can be annoyed with both actual racist/sexist fans who hate these movies for having black and female leads, AND be annoyed with overly-defensive fans who label EVERYONE that dislikes them as being culpable with those racist/sexist shitheads, AND still think that these movies suck for reasons all their own disconnected from all that extraneous IRL nonsense WHILE realizing that the entire "SJW" framework is complete and utter bullshit in and of itself! Why its almost like the human mind is capable of containing and managing more than just one thought at a time!

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- So yes, the new Star Wars movies are bad, but NO it isn't because they're "pandering to SJWs", because much of that entire paradigm is almost COMPLETELY made up by bitter, racist/sexist Alt-Right types on the internet who are way too caught up in their own political BS: and the parts of it that aren't invented by them is largely due to an opposingly reactionary swath of college-age millennials who wildly misidentify everyone and everything even slightly in opposition to them as all being equally as hateful and racist/sexist as the Alt-Right, and thus provide themselves as handy strawmen to prop up the Alt-Right's entire nonsense agenda and win otherwise regular people more towards their way of thinking. All of these concepts can be, and are in fact, true all at once without this being an either/or.

Its no different whatsoever in many ways than that new all-female lead Ghostbusters movie awhile back: it was an unwatchably bad movie because it was just plain unfunny and annoyingly acted/directed. It had NOTHING to do whatsoever with it being all-female lead, NOR did it have anything to do with the Alt-Right knuckle draggers who spat sexist venom at it, NOR with any of the SJW-types who over-defended it from them (and lumping everyone else with a negative opinion of the film in with them in the process).

It was just a bad movie for no more a typical, unremarkable reason than because it was just a poorly made studio-mandated trainwreck of a cynical grab for nerd-nostalgia dollars. Just like basically every other bad summer tentpole movie of the last decade and a half now: all the political clusterfuck nonsense surrounding it was ultimately just white noise drawing undue and totally undeserved attention at what was otherwise just another inconsequential, garden-variety bad studio movie (within an endless conga line of bad studio movies) that should've otherwise been ignored and forgotten about within days of its release.

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- Don't like the new Star Wars films? Don't like the new Dragon Ball material? Here's a novel idea then: STOP FUCKING WATCHING THEM AND STOP GIVING THESE COMPANIES YOUR MONEY TO CONTINUE MAKING THEM. Look for and devote your time, attention, and cash to things that are all new and original, and thus perhaps encourage that "new and original" be the approach that is taken to pop culture and media going forward instead of continually dredging up and debasing past glories. Forget your fucking precious-ass childhood baggage with these movies and cartoons for ten seconds of your life and actually challenge yourself with something you've NEVER experienced in any capacity before.

Yes, we're living in a remake/remix culture: but that's largely because we, the audience, keep enabling it and sending the message to these media giants that that's what we want. No one's putting a gun to any of our heads to keep going to the mat again and again and again with these endless franchise rehashes: its ultimately up to us to break that cycle by moving on from the past, setting our nostalgia aside, and demanding actual newness and freshness out of our creative landscape and moving forward as people. You can defend nostalgia as a concept all you want, but ultimately its the continued refusal to move on from it that's keeping us perpetually stuck in these endless cycles of repeating and reviving past franchises over and over and over and over again, to ever diminishing returns.

Stop settling for less, stop yearning for the continued comfort of familiarity, and be adventurous and exploratory into unknown realms of art. Seek to CHALLENGE yourself as a grown-ass adult instead of continually stagnating into your elementary school pastimes. Fucking demand better: both of media creators and of yourselves.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by VegettoEX » Sat May 05, 2018 9:03 am

I and others are fully capable of following, dissecting, and analyzing Toei and Bandai Namco financial reports without devolving into a vapid corporate cheerleader, and I find it preposterous that you frame it in a blanket way that doesn't allow for that sort of position.

If we're going to move beyond a point of endlessly pontificating over whether Kinto'un could beat Onslaught in a fight, we're probably going to have conversations and topics and analysis evolve into these subjects.

That being said, I certainly do not need Dragon Ball to continue.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat May 05, 2018 9:42 am

sintzu wrote:[

You clearly didn't read what I said after (why do that when you can use the race and gender get out of jail free card) so I'll just post it again.
The fact that you called an SJW mess speaks for itself. What exactly about it is an SJW movie? Like please enlighten me.

"It has nothing to do with there being women or people of color as leads as Wonder Woman and Black Panther clearly show people like them in main roles, the issue is how everyone involved with Star Wars has been acting towards people who don't like what they're doing. people are understandably going to get annoyed when the default answer to any issue they have with the franchise is "you're racist", "you're sexist", "You're (insert whatever other nosense they've said)", etc. Black Panther made more than the last jedi so I guess that puts a lid on the whole "racist" thing they were going with, now let's hope Wonder Woman 2 can as well".
Nobody said you were racist or sexist. But ya know Star Wars now features more diversity and suddenly it's an SJW thing hmmmmm.
Your reply is pretty much what they're saying to everyone and it's very annoying to read even as a non-star wars fan so I can't even begin to think what fans are going through who've spent thousands of $$$ on the franchise. It's going to be very interesting to see how long they can keep it up cause it's only a matter of time before people are going to say enough is enough and move onto something else. Disney needs to get control over this PR nightmare before it's too late and they should start by throwing Ryan Johnson out cause from what I can tell he's the worst of them, doing that should shut the rest up.
Maybe if you can come up with a better criticism than "Ugh they turned it into an SJW movie I'm not gonna say WHY I'm just gonna call it that because ugggh" one wouldn't have to assume your problem is with the inclusion of more diverse characters. Maybe explain why instead of labeling it as such?

The hate Last Jedi gets from fans is ridiculous. It wasn't AMAZING and the ending fatigue was terrible and I could care less about Kylo Ren and Rey 's thing but it was a hell of a lot better than Return of the Jedi, Phantom Menace, and Clone Wars

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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat May 05, 2018 10:00 am

Honestly, I think it could. However, it'd take a lot of planning and thought.

For example, rather than write Goku out of the picture completely by having him f**k off to Zeno knows where, make him the end goal for other characters; new heroes and martial artists start to arise and aim for the top, the pinnacle of martial arts power: Son Goku. His influence on the story and the setting can't be underestimated; this is the guy who never knows when to quit, and thus serves as an anchoring point for all the stories in the setting to be drawn towards, creating the situations we all know and love/hate.

I think stories set with Goku as this ever-present idea that the protagonists aspire to reach and potentially surpass is a fascinating one.

One such story idea I just came up with on the spot is one set after Goku has trained Uub; despite Uub's potential, Goku's own penchant for surpassing his limits and constantly striving to succeed his original strength has put him at the top of the ladder once again. Perhaps this hypothetical could be spun into Goku deciding to spur new fighters into challenging him, to try and inspire new martial artists to pursue constant self-improvement; a tournament arc where Goku is the end goal, the final fight.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by ABED » Sat May 05, 2018 10:12 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:
ABED wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:I want it to become a series where there is no main character and there are multiple high profile characters.

We are at a point where there are so many characters that can easily move things forward without Goku's help. We have many universes with Universe 6, 7 and 11 being the main ones.

Goku is still always around but just not the main focus all the time and is not saved by the plot to have the last main fight. It will always create unpredictability and multiple characters get meaningful things to do.
Why do you want DB without Goku as the main character?

Not having a main character doesn't mean the stories will be more unpredictable and could very well end up making the stories feel even less focused since it's trying to service too many important stories.
What is Goku's story? Just fighting the next strong guy. He can do that but he doesn't need to do everything else.

In Super, Goku is put into every episode for no reason. At times it feels like Goku is the only character that matters. There are so many characters that could have done things but they always give it to Goku.

It does make it predictable as Goku is always saved by plot to fight the antagonist at the end and by some unusual reason save Universe 7.

I have always been more of a fan of multiple top tier characters instead of one main character, especially as a series progresses and every character gets more developed. It just makes things more interesting. They are always focused on the same thing due to some antagonist so there won't be less focus and it is just what they do while the antagonist is around. It is simply just boring seeing Goku do all the meaningful talking and fighting while everyone else is just background filler.
I think you're picking the wrong battle. Any story having a main character doesn't mean other characters don't get something meaningful. It's true of DB. So why are you arguing against being the main character as if making it an ensemble would automatically give other characters good stories?

There are so many good shows out there and having a main character instead of multiple never stopped those shows from developing them. If Goku is the only one getting anything meaningful, it's not because he's the main character. It's simply bad writing.

We can talk about what ifs all day, but the series is being continued. I only hope that the series gets a proper ending. I'm not inherently against series revivals, but the execution has been lackluster by and large with most of them, especially those that had a proper ending.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by Doctor. » Sat May 05, 2018 10:37 am

There are still plenty of interesting stories you can tell with Goku. The problem is that they don't. Or whenever they try to portray the character in an interesting, new way (like in the Zen Exhibition), they backpedal on that extra-hard.

A new, younger main character would be just as uninteresting as Goku is now with stories just as bland if there is no passion in writing the characters anymore. A new cast can only do so much to hold interest before the illusion shatters and you realize it's just a ploy to hide the lack of creativity everyone involved with Dragon Ball right now is suffering from.

And I find this "there are no more stories you can tell with Dragon Ball's world and characters, just end it!" argument absolutely ridiculous, especially when those same people turn around and justify Star Wars' gorillion spin-offs and sequels following the original trilogy; the same trilogy with a shallow, bland universe, and simple characters (with terrible acting performances) with a complete arc. Nobody in their right mind would have thought those movies had the potential to make an ever-lasting franchise out of.

My response to this has always been the same: Dragon Ball isn't a niche product loved by a couple of fans worldwide that will never be tainted. It's a multi-million dollar franchise that will likely keep going even after most of us are no longer fans (even if that means death) whether we like it or not. GT was already a Dragon Ball product without its original creator, and it aired the week after Z ended. Nobody is taking your 42-volume manga anywhere. It's there, the story is untouched and you can discuss the story while completely disregarding everything that came after. Why such rage over the idea of other passionate people taking the propety and doing something with it? Don't buy it if you don't want to support it, but let the others who want to do it.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by ABED » Sat May 05, 2018 11:33 am

I find your view of the original SW trilogy to be off base, but regardless, stories with a proper beginning, middle, and end isn't solely the realm of niche franchises. Endings help give stories meaning.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by sintzu » Sat May 05, 2018 11:55 am

MasenkoHA wrote:The fact that you called an SJW mess speaks for itself. What exactly about it is an SJW movie ? Star Wars now features more diversity and suddenly it's an SJW thing hmmmmm.
It has nothing to do with the gender and race of its characters but rather the people running the company who keep using the race and gender card anytime someone has the slightest compain. Anyone who says they don't like something about it are told by people like the director that they're just rasict and sexist. That's exactly what you're doing with me, I'm complaining about the people behind the scenes and you somehow took that and are trying to make it seem like I'm complaining about there being more diverse characters in it despite me being happy about Black Panther and Wonder Woman doing so well.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by Doctor. » Sat May 05, 2018 11:57 am

ABED wrote:I find your view of the original SW trilogy to be off base, but regardless, stories with a proper beginning, middle, and end isn't solely the realm of niche franchises. Endings help give stories meaning.
Yes. Dragon Ball ended 20 years ago. You're free to disregard everything that comes after. Even if, for some reason, you can't, that's where a new cast comes in; you finish Goku's story and start a new one with a new character in the same world. And if that also doesn't satisfy you, then reboots are also possible, since Dragon Ball is high concept. It's a story about a monkey boy from another world wanting to get stronger and along the way he gathers magical balls. That's about as easy to write stories around as Superman.

You're free to dislike the way the series goes in, sure, I dislike Super and GT a whole lot. But saying there's something inherent about Dragon Ball that makes it impossible for the franchise to go on forever is ridiculous. The series, at this point, is going to go on forever whether we like it or not. Asking for an ending is like asking for a definitive ending of Superman. I'll answer: there is a definitive ending, pick and choose your favorite one out of the countless stories from countless passionate artists.

And I don't see how my assessment of the trilogy is wrong. It had its charm but the setting was bland and the characters weren't remotely interesting (besides Vader) nor did they have the potential to write decades of stories around.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by ABED » Sat May 05, 2018 12:47 pm

That's your assessment. You view the characters as bland, and that's your view, but you are wrong as Star Wars does in fact have decades worth of stories written about those characters.

DB isn't high concept. It's built around one character in his quest to get stronger. The world of DB isn't the draw, it's the characters, the humor, and the action. The world itself is relatively simple.

High concept is more about "what ifs" and are more philosophical in nature.

You keep bringing up Superman, but Superman was written by a bunch of different writers over the years and his traits have constantly been in flux. He's also fighting the never ending battle for truth and justice. DB is a story that for the most part was written by one man and those characters were defined by one person. Goku's fighting to get stronger. He's not a character open to reinterpretation like American superheroes are. DB isn't a superhero story.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by sintzu » Sat May 05, 2018 12:51 pm

Doctor. wrote:Nobody is taking your 42-volume manga anywhere. It's there, the story is untouched and you can discuss the story while completely disregarding everything that came after. Why such rage over the idea of other passionate people taking the propety and doing something with it? Don't buy it if you don't want to support it, but let the others who want to do it.
This is my view on it as well, the original story is there so if we get new good content then that's more to enjoy and if not then we can just act like it doesn't exist. That's essentially what I do with the Boruto anime, for the most part I just ignoar it as it's failed to live up to what came before it but I'm not against new content as I still think the franchise has potential.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by ABED » Sat May 05, 2018 12:55 pm

I get it, you can dismiss it, but why are you against the idea of stories having a definitive conclusion?
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by Doctor. » Sat May 05, 2018 12:58 pm

ABED wrote:That's your assessment. You view the characters as bland, and that's your view, but you are wrong as Star Wars does in fact have decades worth of stories written about those characters.

DB isn't high concept. It's built around one character in his quest to get stronger. The world of DB isn't the draw, it's the characters, the humor, and the action. The world itself is relatively simple.

High concept is more about "what ifs" and are more philosophical in nature.

You keep bringing up Superman, but Superman was written by a bunch of different writers over the years and his traits have constantly been in flux. He's also fighting the never ending battle for truth and justice. DB is a story that for the most part was written by one man and those characters were defined by one person. Goku's fighting to get stronger. He's not a character open to reinterpretation like American superheroes are. DB isn't a superhero story.
And so does Dragon Ball. And it will continue to have stories in the future. So are you wrong in saying that they shouldn't continue to write Dragon Ball anymore?

The Dragon Balls are the draw. 7 magical balls that grant any wish. That's what makes DB's world unique and Goku's journey/quest to get stronger and the DBs are intertwined.

Superman is also almost 100 years old. You say Goku isn't open to reinterpretation the same way I could have said the same about Superman in the 40s or Spiderman in the 60s. Doesn't really matter if Goku isn't an American superhero, because there are japanese franchises that have been reinvented multiple times before, like Gundam and Godzilla.

DB wasn't written by one man the same way a book is written by an author that sits down, alone, and spends months or years meticulously crafting his book's story. Toriyama wrote his story mostly for the money, he was open to outside interference coming from his editors and fan reaction and the anime staff at Toei largely contributed to shape Dragon Ball's worldwide appeal considering the anime is the version most people have watched. Dragon Ball may be Toriyama's story but it's wrong to say it's ONLY his story and vision. As I said before, GT started one week after Z ended. Toriyama trusted other people with his property even back in the series' hey-day.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat May 05, 2018 1:00 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I and others are fully capable of following, dissecting, and analyzing Toei and Bandai Namco financial reports without devolving into a vapid corporate cheerleader, and I find it preposterous that you frame it in a blanket way that doesn't allow for that sort of position.
Forgive me for failing to cover 100% of all my bases here (no that wasn't sarcasm: I had a LOT of ground to cover in that whole post). I did the best I could to make sure I covered every possible angle, but I'm only human and sometimes shit gets past me.

You're right obviously that of course its possible to examine these things and not devolve into a mindless corporate drone in the process, and it wasn't my intent to frame it as if that wasn't the case (though you're right, and that is how it came out, so I apologize for that misstep on my end: like I said, I had a LOT of ground to cover in that whole spiel, and I was writing that quickly and on the fly).

Unfortunately, I don't see that as the majority position around here any more than I do those like Sean/Kaboom who analyze Power Levels, but try to do it from a more thoughtful and constructive position: in large part, much like Power Level discussions, discourse centered around Toei and Bandai/Namco's finances more often than not seems to end up ultimately leading to a lot of "corporate cheerleading", as you put it, more times than it does delving into anything genuinely insightful about the series.

Which actually brings me right to this point here:
VegettoEX wrote:If we're going to move beyond a point of endlessly pontificating over whether Kinto'un could beat Onslaught in a fight, we're probably going to have conversations and topics and analysis evolve into these subjects.
Honestly, I don't see those two things as being somehow mutually exclusive from one another the way you seem to be presenting them: I think that as tiresome as the "Who would win in a fight/Power Level" stuff so often is, I don't see the financial analysis aspect of the series as being any sort of genuine "antidote" to the "Power Level obsession" problem, or as being somehow an innately more "high brow" of a topic that fosters or encourages any kind growth in how one looks at this series.

Quite the contrary, in many cases it seems to very often (obviously not in ALL cases for EVERYONE, but in a great many instances nonetheless) simply end up turning into an alternating manifestation of a very similar problem as Power Level debates: an obsession with measuring constantly growing or fluctuating numbers as some sort of end-all-be-all scale of personal validation.

Instead of "Gohan's Power Level in this fight was 200,000,000 while Vegeta's Power Level was 150,000,000, so that's why my boy Gohan is the all time coolest badass ever!", it ends up often becoming instead "Dragon Ball sold 8 million units of Xenoverse Heroes 5, while Naruto only sold 4 million units of Ultimate Ninja Storm 6, ergo my favorite series Dragon Ball has the WAY bigger penis... I mean is the MUCH cooler and more popular Shonen series out there!"

I get, and acknowledge (and forgive me once again for failing to properly acknowledge this in my last post) that there are people (such as yourself) who put a GREAT deal more thought into the topic than that and aim for it to have a much more constructive and intellectual impact on the fanbase... but I simply don't see that as the overall reality on the ground here. Ultimately I think that, for all the good intentions people like yourself have with the financial stuff, it ultimately usually manifests in most common discussions as just the "toe-mah-toe" to the usual Power Level discussions' "toe-may-toe".

And frankly, regardless of whether or not its the intent (and I don't of course think its in any way remotely the intent at all in your specific case certainly, for reasons so numerous and obvious as to be blindingly self-evident), stuff like this DOES encourage a certain level of "brand obsession", where people take what Dragon Ball's current sales are and hold to them as some sort of signaling for validation of their own personal identity. Again, a similar kind of "Yay, my favored franchise is selling the most! "We're" number 1, I'm on the most popular team!" kind of tribalistic nonsense that again, things like fans of different sports teams or even just a lot of the common Power Level discussions around here tend to be tied in with.

Does that mean that I think that the financial topics are inherently bad or worthless? No, in fact obviously they're of some level of very clear-cut importance as they dictate what does or doesn't get made or released for DB down the line. And I of course generally sympathize with your outlook of wanting to help foster the "growth" and "maturation" of Dragon Ball discussion by getting most discussions as far away from more obviously asinine, schoolyard shit like "Could Piccolo beat Martian Manhunter?" as possible.

I just disagree with your framing that a specific focus on the financial aspects behind the scenes is necessarily the sort of topic that's going to help foster that kind of growth and maturation of Dragon Ball discussion, when its come across (to myself at least) over the years that in many cases it seems to do the opposite and act as just another incarnation of the usual types of metaphorical dick measuring contests for fans who wave these things around as extensions of themselves: similar again to most Power Level debates.

I of course would never go so far as to claim that there's NOTHING of value that could be gained from examining Dragon Ball's behind-the-scenes finances: that'd be a ludicrous extreme to take. Rather I just see it as more of a "necessary evil" given both DB's status as a juggernaut cash-cow franchise and how much that ties into its overall future and the general trajectory its various media releases will take as time goes on, rather than something that's otherwise inherently of personal value or insight to any average, general fan who isn't otherwise someone who is interested in taking on some kind of a career in finances or business.

Beyond what it means to the franchise's future (such as it was up until BoG, RoF, and Super, since it was a mostly dead property up till then), how well or not well Toei and Bandai are doing fiscally is of remarkably little practical concern to the average fan, who are ultimately just the audience and should be vastly more concerned with how well the end product is turning out for them.

Nonetheless, there ends up tending to be a LOT more stressing in some discussions about whether or not Dragon Ball is moving product well this quarter rather than whether or not that product is ultimately something that's actually even worth moving (and worth our time and effort as fans to help push and support) to begin with; because people in this fanbase, as we've all become well aware of over these many years, tend to get VERY caught up with numbers, and using numbers moreover as some sort of Ultimate Deciding Scale of their favorite characters, stories, and corporate brands, and tie those brands in as an extension of their personal identity.

It all ends up amounting/contributing to a broader mindset that's ridiculously psychologically unhealthy and that I think is ultimately much more trouble than its worth in the end. I think that when it comes to discussing Dragon Ball in a more thoughtful and intelligent light, there are a whole TON of avenues one can EASILY go down, endless amounts of rabbit holes one can explore relating to Dragon Ball that are much more mature, constructive, creatively worthwhile, and aren't in any way reductive down to simply either "Who would win in a fight?" or "How are well are Bandai's sales figures doing this quarter?" Which I understand full well that I'm saying this to the same guy who's ran a podcast on almost anything and everything even tangentially relating to this series under the sun for the better part of the past 14 years now... but you get what I mean. :wink:

YOU Mike, as well as some other notable voices, are not coming at the financial topics from the perspective of a corporate cheerleader: but the topic has a way of attracting those who DO have such leanings, as well as (however inadvertently) encouraging a more corporate cheerleader-like mentality across various different areas of fandom. It seems to be the sort of topical focus that just makes the "numerical penis size contest" aspect of DB fandom (that many of us hate and have been long-since sick of; yourself obviously included) simply take on a slightly differing form from the usual Power Level stuff rather than move things away from it altogether entirely.

But that's just my own take on it obviously.
Doctor. wrote:And I find this "there are no more stories you can tell with Dragon Ball's world and characters, just end it!" argument absolutely ridiculous, especially when those same people turn around and justify Star Wars' gorillion spin-offs and sequels following the original trilogy; the same trilogy with a shallow, bland universe, and simple characters (with terrible acting performances) with a complete arc. Nobody in their right mind would have thought those movies had the potential to make an ever-lasting franchise out of.
Assuming this was in reference to my earlier post, I'm pretty sure I was the same guy who was also arguing AGAINST there being more Star Wars sequels as well. My stance on Star Wars is very similar to my stance on Dragon Ball: let it rest as a finished work and lets all move on to new things instead of constantly digging up and obsessing over the past.

I know damn well that that sentiment is a hollow one on my part and that it's ultimately just going to fall on deaf ears, especially given the two franchises (DB and SW) in question here: but at least I'm cognizant enough to acknowledge when I'm engaging in a blatant exercise in pointless futility. :P
Doctor. wrote:My response to this has always been the same: Dragon Ball isn't a niche product loved by a couple of fans worldwide that will never be tainted. It's a multi-million dollar franchise that will likely keep going even after most of us are no longer fans (even if that means death) whether we like it or not. GT was already a Dragon Ball product without its original creator, and it aired the week after Z ended.
For my part, I've never said DB was a "niche" series (pretty sure most of my posts on the pre-dub era of U.S. fandom impress upon it being SO mainstream and beloved globally that OF COURSE it was gonna make some kind of a footprint over here in the U.S., regardless of whether or not someone had actually licensed it yet): that being said though, no, for roughly over 15 years prior to Battle of Gods, Dragon Ball HADN'T "kept going on long after people stopped being fans/had died", at least not in terms of their being new material (the fanbase itself certainly kept growing and growing undiminished, but not due to there being new material but rather in spite of the lack of it).

The reality is that Dragon Ball from 1997 till 2013 (a little over 15 years) was almost COMPLETELY inactive in any meaningful way. The FUNimation dub, various Budokai video games, and even Kai hardly count as "new": these were warmed-over, repackaged reruns at best.

The series being brought back, after that much time, can hardly be thought of as some sort of an inevitable given: it came as a genuine surprise to almost EVERYBODY. This idea of it now being thought of as a "never-ending" franchise that's just going to go on perpetually... that's NEW. That's only been on the table since BoG and then Super MADE it into a thing. The fact that so few people seem to acknowledge this and act like we were all expecting and waiting all this time and all these years for it to inevitably come back and stay back for good: that's completely and bafflingly not at ALL the case and is a pretty blatant rewriting of basic history here.

GT was without Toriyama, true: but it was VERY exceedingly short lived; barely two years and barely above 50 episodes, and it was generally considered a failure (and unlike Super, it actually DID take real creative risks with the series). GT was a final cap/coffin nail in the franchise, not some kind of "proof" that is was somehow destined to forever go on and on. In point of fact, part of the problem that so many fans had back then with GT was in direct part due to general Dragon Ball fatigue, which had set in sometime during the Boo arc.

People were genuinely SICK of this franchise, and wanted it done and gone already, seeing it as having worn out its welcome awhile ago: that was a LOT of the attitude around Dragon Ball at the time (circa 1996/1997). After that... that was IT for over 15 solid years. GT's ending put as final a pin in things as you could get. And in that final pin stayed until only fairly recently.
Doctor. wrote:Nobody is taking your 42-volume manga anywhere. It's there, the story is untouched and you can discuss the story while completely disregarding everything that came after. Why such rage over the idea of other passionate people taking the propety and doing something with it? Don't buy it if you don't want to support it, but let the others who want to do it.
Of course. All of this is a given, obviously. I don't ultimately care, nor does it matter, how much more this revival goes on for, and it will likely do little to nothing to impact my own fondness for the original 42 volume run and whatnot. What I'm "raging" against (and that's hardly the word I'd use to describe my attitude here: I'm just bullshitting about stupid crap as I kill time doing other, much more pressing things in my day to day) is less the revival itself, and more the masochistic "love/hate" relationship that a chunk of the fanbase seems to have with it.

For those who ARE satisfied with the new stuff and are thoroughly enjoying and eating it all up: more power to you. NONE of this is remotely aimed your way. This is more for those who AREN'T satisfied, who AREN'T enjoying it, but are still pining for it to press on regardless and are still twisting themselves into knots trying to brainstorm different ways to make it work.

My advice to that latter camp is simple: just let it go and stop torturing yourself. Its time that would be MUCH better spent on things that are actually already good to begin with, exploring cool new shit you've never delved into before, rather than pulling your hair out over a revival for a long-since exhausted and explored-to-death property that, were I a betting man I would wager, likely isn't going to get any better from here on in: especially with the Shonen landscape of the past 20 years now being what its been.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by sintzu » Sat May 05, 2018 1:05 pm

ABED wrote:I get it, you can dismiss it, but why are you against the idea of stories having a definitive conclusion?
I'm not, I just think DB's ending wasn't definitive and as we've seen in Super (regardless of quality), it still has more to offer. Naruto on the other hand did have a definitive ending with him reaching his dream of becoming Hokage and the world achieving peace so although I'm not against more stories, Boruto has shown that there isn't anything worthwhile to tell so it's more understandable to question why they're still going on from a story point of view. If Toriyama ends things on a definitive note and whatever Toei's doing after isn't bringing anything new then I'll be willing to change my mind about DB continuing.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by ABED » Sat May 05, 2018 1:06 pm

The Dragon Balls are NOT the draw. The action is the draw. Many of DB's best stories aren't about the DB's. Mystical McGuffins are in no way unique.

Superman wasn't one continuous story for those decades. Dragon Ball is all one story. From when Goku meets Bulma to when he flew off with Uub is all one story. It had a beginning, middle, and end.
DB wasn't written by one man the same way a book is written by an author that sits down, alone, and spends months or years meticulously crafting his book's story. Toriyama wrote his story mostly for the money, he was open to outside interference coming from his editors and fan reaction and the anime staff at Toei largely contributed to shape Dragon Ball's worldwide appeal considering the anime is the version most people have watched. Dragon Ball may be Toriyama's story but it's wrong to say it's ONLY his story and vision. As I said before, GT started one week after Z ended. Toriyama trusted other people with his property even back in the series' hey-day.
I don't see what Toriyama's motives have to do with his writing. Plenty of popular stories were written for the cash. And your view of what constitutes outside interference is naïve. EVERY story has outside influences. It's a natural part of the creative process to have editors and getting feedback before publishing. It wouldn't have mattered if Toriyama didn't trust other people with his story. It's my understanding that he doesn't actually own it and Toei can do what they want with the anime.
I just think DB's ending wasn't definitive
What do you consider a definitive conclusion to mean? To me, it just means all the story threads have been wrapped up. Even if the hero lives to fight another day, that can still be definitive. I enjoyed Battle of Gods, but other than that, nothing is sounding that good about Super and the supposedly new stories aren't really new but are just more hierarchy, transformations, and variations on a theme.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by sintzu » Sat May 05, 2018 1:22 pm

ABED wrote:What do you consider a definitive conclusion to mean? To me, it just means all the story threads have been wrapped up. Even if the hero lives to fight another day, that can still be definitive.
The story threads were wrapped up but we still didn't know if there was anything else out there besides the saiyans, Freeza, Buu and the Namakians. That question has been answered in Super which is a no, there isn't. Now all that's left is to see Goku finally reach his dream of becoming the strongest fighter to ever live, another thing the original ending didn't show or answer. We also never saw how Vegeta changing affected him and his abilities to get stronger, now we have thanks to Super. The original ending wasn't bad by any means and DB could've easily stayed there without anything else but if we're given the chance to see even more closure to things then I'm going to take it, especially if it's from the original author.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball move forward from the "Goku Saga"? If yes, what new DB stories would you like to see?

Post by ABED » Sat May 05, 2018 1:28 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:What do you consider a definitive conclusion to mean? To me, it just means all the story threads have been wrapped up. Even if the hero lives to fight another day, that can still be definitive.
The story threads were wrapped up but we still didn't know if there was anything else out there besides the saiyans, Freeza, Buu and the Namakians. That question has been answered in Super which is a no, there isn't. Now all that's left is to see Goku finally reach his dream of becoming the strongest fighter to ever live, another thing the original ending didn't show or answer. We also never saw how Vegeta changing affected him and his abilities to get stronger. The original ending wasn't bad by any means and DB could've easily stayed there without anything else but if we're given the chance to see even more closure to things then I'm going to take it, especially if it's from the original author.
Was it a pressing issue to know if there was? And moreover, do we have to see it for an ending to feel satisfying?

The value of Vegeta's change wasn't about his strength, it was his morality. We see him become a better person.

You can't possibly answer every single question fans will ask. What's important is to answer the question the story asks. Even an open ending can be definitive. For instance, Halt and Catch Fire ends with characters coming up with a new idea, but we never find out what it is because it's not the point. The point was never about the answers.

Regardless of the term we use, what I'm asking for is a satisfying conclusion. If Goku's aim is to be the best martial artist, the ending has to speak to that in some way, like both the ending to DB and DBZ do.
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