Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by supersaiyanZero » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:33 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:I disagree with this because I have yet to find a single anime or cartoon that gets anywhere near the level of shading and detail that cel art.

In my experience when looking at Super they are trying to do all these things to emulate the old cel art look and it...always looks off, it's too shiny on their muscles and hair, or just too bright.

Stuff like this you just won't see in digital art.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

In comparison this is much more brighter and lacks the shading that cel art would bring.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
This edits prove that you can replicate the old school shading and detail art from cels using digital tools:

* https://www.deviantart.com/salvamakoto/ ... -620932589
* https://www.deviantart.com/salvamakoto/ ... -644891576
* https://www.deviantart.com/salvamakoto/ ... -646048255

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]
And that's precisely the "SUPER WITH Z COLORS" nonsense I was talking about

..but it looks..better? the contrast is way too high but compare the stills side by side one has much more of an impact than the other. Super's color palette while being overly bright and "kiddish" is also incredibly dull and rarely adds anything to the scene. The color compositions in Super are also very lacking.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by Shaddy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:11 pm

Uh no? Nothing about those look any better.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:05 am

If anyone’s interested, Kevin from Sakugablog wrote an article about the new movie for Crunchyroll.

It’s a good read that goes into depth about the visuals of the potential and visuals of the new movie.

Do people agree with his analysis in the article?
Last edited by JazzMazz on Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by supersaiyanZero » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:09 am

Shaddy wrote:Uh no? Nothing about those look any better.
Yes, it does. They're punchier and more contrasty than I'd like, but to say that it visually isn't more interesting or have a stronger sense of atmosphere/emotional impact is straight up lying. But I know it's trendy to hate it on here, so "it's just your opinion, man".

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by Shaddy » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:50 am

Don't give me this "anyone who disagrees with me is a LYING HATERRR" bullshit. Obviously it's my fucking opinion, the same way your opinion isn't "LE TRUTH XDDD". The only debatably meaningful enhancements those images bring is not having Yamamuro's awful skin highlights on everything. The colors aren't better, they're washed out and horrible. There's no atmosphere in assfucking the contrast, and there's nothing "more interesting" or "more emotional" because all the images themselves are literally lifted from Super. There's nothing here that isn't in Super, just a nasty filter over all of it.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by supersaiyanZero » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:02 pm

Shaddy wrote:Don't give me this "anyone who disagrees with me is a LYING HATERRR" bullshit. Obviously it's my fucking opinion, the same way your opinion isn't "LE TRUTH XDDD". The only debatably meaningful enhancements those images bring is not having Yamamuro's awful skin highlights on everything. The colors aren't better, they're washed out and horrible. There's no atmosphere in assfucking the contrast, and there's nothing "more interesting" or "more emotional" because all the images themselves are literally lifted from Super. There's nothing here that isn't in Super, just a nasty filter over all of it.
Truth hurts. The colors are washed out to give it that 90's look, which I understand is a debatable decision, but it looks infinitely better than Super's bright dulled out mess. The colors jump at you and in certain images absolutely give it more of an atmospheric effect. That's not even debatable. The fact that they're "lifted from Super" doesn't mean shit. You can absolutely take a still from that show and showcase more visual impact by altering it. Whether you like the atmosphere is up to you. If it's just a dumbass filter pulled over it and it looks better, what does that say about the original?

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by Shaddy » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:31 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:The colors are washed out to give it that 90's look, which I understand is a debatable decision, but it looks infinitely better than Super's bright dulled out mess.
Except the show didn't look like that in the 90s. The show had good colors in the 90s. These are very obviously based off faded Dragon Box and Orange Brick footage and they look like shit. I have plenty of issues with Super's color design and nobody's denying that Z looked better, but these look worse than either.
supersaiyanZero wrote:The colors jump at you and in certain images absolutely give it more of an atmospheric effect. That's not even debatable.
supersaiyanZero wrote:Truth hurts.
How fucking inflated is your ego? It is debatable. I'm debating it right now. You can't call something a fact or "the truth" just because you feel like it. These colors jump at me because they look worse, not better. If I say "The Phantom Menace is the best Star Wars movie! It's a fact! You're just a hater!!!!!" does that make me right? No. It's just my opinion, and shouting about how evil and wrong everyone else is for disagreeing makes me look like an egotistical idiotic dipshit.
supersaiyanZero wrote:The fact that they're "lifted from Super" doesn't mean shit. You can absolutely take a still from that show and showcase more visual impact by altering it. Whether you like the atmosphere is up to you. If it's just a dumbass filter pulled over it and it looks better, what does that say about the original?
Of course you can alter Super to look better. But this doesn't. I'll never know what it would say if a shitty filter makes it look better, because this shitty filter doesn't make it look better.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by emperior » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:55 am

JazzMazz wrote:If anyone’s interested, Kevin from Sakugablog wrote an article about the new movie for Crunchyroll.

It’s a good read that goes into depth about the visuals of the potential and visuals of the new movie.

Do people agree with his analysis in the article?
Awesome article, it’s always nice to see competent people being so positive about the movie and Dragon Ball’s future.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:38 am

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Broly Savage design has been revealed in at least somewhat HQ quality.

What do people think of up close?

Have to say, like how they fixed the nose from the fully savage and full power Broly, looks much better here. The use of highlights is also nice and tasteful I feel. On another note, like how the back armour is at least somewhat unique.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:43 am

I appreciate that there's more emphasis on non-Legendary Broly this time, as I've gotten rather sick on seeing the same urine-green-haired look from over the years, a form where he exhibits absolutely no character.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:11 am

Super Saiyan God Goku's character design was revealed.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

What do people think about it?

Personally, I'm a little indifferent to it on a whole. Like the side profile a lot, but the 3/4's view and back profile, I feel like lack the usual dynamism and liveliness that Shintani's usual designs have. It just feels a little too squared on a whole for me. Kind of reminds me of some of modern Yamamuro's features in that sense.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by emperior » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:21 am

JazzMazz wrote:Super Saiyan God Goku's character design was revealed.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

What do people think about it?

Personally, I'm a little indifferent to it on a whole. Like the side profile a lot, but the 3/4's view and back profile, I feel like lack the usual dynamism and liveliness that Shintani's usual designs have. It just feels a little too squared on a whole for me. Kind of reminds me of some of modern Yamamuro's features in that sense.
I personally like it a lot. The pose is natural and relaxed, the anatomy is perfect as always, the skinnier muscles do not make Goku look anorexic but just leaner, the clothes are loose and the hair is too, with very little detail to the point it looks like a very minor difference in the hair compared to Goku’s normal status, which is basically the point of the transformation.
I was hoping for a more red and less mage ta color for the hair, but I guess they couldn’t find a more red color to fit with Goku’s new gi color, and this red is fine too. At least, they didn’t alter Goku’s gi and skin color as they did in BoG and Super.
I am still crossing my fingers that the hair will turn more reddish with the aura on, and I hope the aura will be simple, yet godly and of course very red and possibly flame like. I liked BoG’s SSG aura but not much the Super’s one, which.
Maybe if they could use Toriyama’s original color scheme for when Goku transforms that could be cool, I think?

Anyways, here’s Yamamuro model for comparison:

Image

(http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/File:G ... n_God.jpeg)

It’s stiff, especially the side view, and it also makes Goku look taller for some reason. It also changed Goku’s boots all of a sudden. But the 3/4 view is actually nice and one of modern Yamamuro’s best designs... too bad he basically traced Toriyama for it.
The back view has Goku seemingly leaning forward if my eyes aren’t deceiving me, with his right shoulder higher than the left. The front on shot doesn’t look that bad, expect for the bubbly face and bad nose, but on closer inspection it’s easy to notice how asymmetrical it is, especially the arms muscles.
Shintani’s has none of these problems, making it the obvious superior version. As always, dare I say.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by Kokonoe » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:37 am

KBABZ wrote:I appreciate that there's more emphasis on non-Legendary Broly this time, as I've gotten rather sick on seeing the same urine-green-haired look from over the years, a form where he exhibits absolutely no character.
You do realize he was a mind puppet until he transforms? When he does transform he absolutely does show personality and I'd really wish this misconception would end, at least in terms of the first movie.

"Kakarot, you will be the first blood sacrifice"
"If you guys don't demonstrate the will to fight me, I will just destroy the whole planet!"
"It looks as though you've finally decided to fight. Did you think you could defeat me with that level of power?"
"The slaves we brought from Planet Shamo, huh? You've gazed at the stars, wishing someday to return there, haven't you?
"It would be nice to go back someday, wouldn't it? -Broly proceeds to destroy the planet- [...] HAHAHAHA"
"Kakarot, is your son dear to you?"
"My Ki is rising. It's overflowing!"
"Kakarot's son... So, another worm has come here to die?"
"I am a monster? No, I am a devil. HAHAHAHA"
"You could have gotten off just being killed like good boys, you didn't have to meet with such a painful fate!"
"I'll give you credit for being every bit Saiyan."
"Hmph! I'm not going to let you die so easily"
"Finished yet? Finished, all right. Scum is, after all, scum."

As Broly's finally free of his father's mind control device, his inner saiyan spirit awakens in full force as does his love for battle like all saiyans. As Paragus watches his son destroy the Z Fighters, he attempts to escape because the meteor arriving will kill everyone on the planet and he gives up on Broly and his plans for universal domination, attempting to leave his son to die.

"Broly: Where are you going?
Paragas: I-I'm preparing to seek shelter together with you!
Broly: In a single-seat pod?
Did you think it would take the explosion of a planet for me to die?"

Broly after years of mind control abuse from his father being used as a puppet catches whiff of his attempt to escape and calls him out for trying to escape all by his lonesome and then murders his father.

"You scum, are you still alive? Well, come on! This will be the place where you die!"
"It's gotta be this way, or it wouldn't be any fun!"
"You've lasted well, but it looks as though the end has finally come."
"HAHAHA! No matter how much power you absorb from those small fries, you cannot overcome me!"

If anything when he transformed he gained a ton of personality.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by supersaiyanZero » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:50 am

Shaddy wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:The colors are washed out to give it that 90's look, which I understand is a debatable decision, but it looks infinitely better than Super's bright dulled out mess.
Except the show didn't look like that in the 90s. The show had good colors in the 90s. These are very obviously based off faded Dragon Box and Orange Brick footage and they look like shit. I have plenty of issues with Super's color design and nobody's denying that Z looked better, but these look worse than either.
supersaiyanZero wrote:The colors jump at you and in certain images absolutely give it more of an atmospheric effect. That's not even debatable.
supersaiyanZero wrote:Truth hurts.
How fucking inflated is your ego? It is debatable. I'm debating it right now. You can't call something a fact or "the truth" just because you feel like it. These colors jump at me because they look worse, not better. If I say "The Phantom Menace is the best Star Wars movie! It's a fact! You're just a hater!!!!!" does that make me right? No. It's just my opinion, and shouting about how evil and wrong everyone else is for disagreeing makes me look like an egotistical idiotic dipshit.
supersaiyanZero wrote:The fact that they're "lifted from Super" doesn't mean shit. You can absolutely take a still from that show and showcase more visual impact by altering it. Whether you like the atmosphere is up to you. If it's just a dumbass filter pulled over it and it looks better, what does that say about the original?
Of course you can alter Super to look better. But this doesn't. I'll never know what it would say if a shitty filter makes it look better, because this shitty filter doesn't make it look better.
It's not how I would want it colored, but it definitely invokes more atmosphere and emotion than the original screengrabs. Just compare them side by side. You then go on to incoherently rant about people's opinions being valid and then go on to say that I'm wrong because it's a "shitty filter". Pretentiousness aside, it is a shitty filter. And it looks better than the original screengrab.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by Shaddy » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:43 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote: It's not how I would want it colored, but it definitely invokes more atmosphere and emotion than the original screengrabs. Just compare them side by side.
I've been looking at them compared to the actual show the whole time. They look worse. They look worse than the actual orange bricks in some cases. The only emotion it evokes is amazement that the trappings of the orange bricks still permeate the fandom so much that they mess up the new show on purpose.
supersaiyanZero wrote:You then go on to incoherently rant about people's opinions being valid and then go on to say that I'm wrong because it's a "shitty filter". Pretentiousness aside, it is a shitty filter. And it looks better than the original screengrab.
Actually, I said that I had an opinion and you had yours, that I disagreed with yours, and that you treating yours like fact is absolutely ridiculous. It's really not that complicated. It's not because it's a filter (which I never said), it's because it looks terrible. You're constantly trying to convince me that I think it looks better by saying that your equally-subjective view is fact, and I'm going to continue treating it like the opinion it actually is. Strawmanning and condescending to me won't make it look any good, let alone better than Super itself.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:49 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
KBABZ wrote:I appreciate that there's more emphasis on non-Legendary Broly this time, as I've gotten rather sick on seeing the same urine-green-haired look from over the years, a form where he exhibits absolutely no character.
You do realize he was a mind puppet until he transforms? When he does transform he absolutely does show personality and I'd really wish this misconception would end, at least in terms of the first movie.
Its probably Second Coming, and the further media of him that has lead people to dislike him where he has no dialogue at all but "Kakarot" and no ambition at all for himself. Him having at least threats for dialogue is more than what he's known for but, if this movie is going to really redeem him. He needs something to gain.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by emperior » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:18 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:
KBABZ wrote:I appreciate that there's more emphasis on non-Legendary Broly this time, as I've gotten rather sick on seeing the same urine-green-haired look from over the years, a form where he exhibits absolutely no character.
You do realize he was a mind puppet until he transforms? When he does transform he absolutely does show personality and I'd really wish this misconception would end, at least in terms of the first movie.
Its probably Second Coming, and the further media of him that has lead people to dislike him where he has no dialogue at all but "Kakarot" and no ambition at all for himself. Him having at least threats for dialogue is more than what he's known for but, if this movie is going to really redeem him. He needs something to gain.
Yeah, ever since Second Coming Broly’s character has been flanderized into a mindless idiot screaming “Kakorot!” over and over, even though the original actually had a personality.
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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by TAS » Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:52 am

I personally really like Naohiro Shintani's art/style on this project. It reminds me more of traditional animation we last saw in the GT (Path To Power, etc) era. It also feels a bit more like someone else's take on Toriyama's style rather than trying to do a straight copy, which I like.

I haven't enjoyed the more noticeably digital style of animation that the franchise has evolved into which I feel like first started with Budokai 2's intro sequence. Over time we got the Jump Anniversary Special, Episode of Bardock, a remake of Plan To Eradicate The Saiyans, animated cutscenes in XenoVerse, etc. Compared to the older cel animated stuff the modern digital animation of stuff like Super & the things I mentioned previously seem/look cheap by comparison. It reminds me a lot of flash animation from the early 2000s. Lots of very pencil/razor thin lines around the characters with minimal frames of movement/animation.

Ever since the 2002 re-releases of the original manga that featured (then) current popular manga artists from One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc, doing tribute pieces to Dragon Ball in their own style I've always loved seeing artists draw the DB characters in their own style as opposed to Toriyama's. Obviously that's not the sort of thing you want from a movie like this, but ever since then (2002) it's stood out to me that the large majority of DB fan art is drawn in Toriyama's style. You might wonder what's wrong with that, or why that's odd, but think about any one of those same (fan) artists drawing a character like lets say Superman for instance. Chances are they'd draw Superman in their own personal art style rather than someone else's. Off the top of my head I can't think of another fandom where the fan art is so overwhelmingly in another artists style or a specific style. Even though a lot of anime fan art typically mimics the original artists you can still find plenty of One Piece, Naruto, etc, fan art done in an artist's personal style where as with DB it was extremely rare. In more recent years I've seen more & more artists draw DB characters in their own style which I absolutely love seeing even if I don't personally like the specific art pieces.

ANYWAYS...(I realize I'm getting a bit off topic) the style of this new movie is something I've been wanting to see for awhile now. Something that looks a little more traditional in terms of animation while also bringing in someone with a bit of a new take while not also being a drastic departure.

I miss stuff like this. I mean note how Goku & Vegeta are standing completely still here & yet there's a strong level of animation in the hair & clothing that is completely gone in the more modern era of Dragon Ball.
Image

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:25 am

TAS wrote:ANYWAYS...(I realize I'm getting a bit off topic) the style of this new movie is something I've been wanting to see for awhile now. Something that looks a little more traditional in terms of animation while also bringing in someone with a bit of a new take while not also being a drastic departure.

I miss stuff like this. I mean note how Goku & Vegeta are standing completely still here & yet there's a strong level of animation in the hair & clothing that is completely gone in the more modern era of Dragon Ball.
The one piece of animation detail I am a bit surprised that we never say again since the narrow uniformity of the Yamammuro art was the fact that there was never any hair movement animated for the characters. Especially Goku. His hair model always stated splayed out in its standard look at all times, even when in battle and in flight, as opposed to whipping backward like you see when say he ran across Snake Way. Its probably one of the single things that made his character look stiff all the time, and it lacks the visual aspect of speed and intensity when he's moving. When it was used in Super ep 95 when Goku and Golden Freeza were teleporting around each other, I was so happy to remember that forgotten visual cue. Its also one thing I doubt is considered in this movie though. Hair itself should have its own character sheet.

I in general just really liked the look of the characters in that scene just from how it proved, that modern DB doesn't need excessive detail and flashy highlights over the characters to look 'good', but its just the way Goku looked much more hand-drawn, with appropriate single-toned shading along with the line effects around him that I felt looked much more like DB.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

That and the backgrounds from Yo-Son Goku 2008 is something I beg to come back with this or Shintani's artstyle.
[spoiler][image]https://s1-ssl.dmcdn.net/oABnT/x720-3A0.jpg[/image][/spoiler]
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Old artstyle vs New Artstyle 2.0

Post by KBABZ » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:15 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:That and the backgrounds from Yo-Son Goku 2008 is something I beg to come back with this or Shintani's artstyle.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
I agree. One thing I loathe about Super (and modern stuff like TFC's intros) is the use of CG textures for backgrounds and CG elements. It clashes horribly and feels very UN-Dragon Ball to me, especially if you think back to the awesome painted backgrounds that were in use since the start.

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