Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

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Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by KBABZ » Thu May 31, 2018 10:42 pm

I've had this thought process for a while now and I wanted to see how others felt about it. Personally, I love the character of Android 21, she was way more complex than I thought she'd be with her evil half and how she overcomes it, and the hook that she could come back made me wonder if perhaps she could appear in Super someday. While I know that the game canon is often considered rather inferior to any Tori/Toyo manga or animated show canon, I think she could make a great addition to the cast.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by sintzu » Thu May 31, 2018 10:44 pm

I...I don't know. Does she have what it takes to hold an entire arc on her own ? I can see them using her base form in a bigger plot but that majin thing... :sick:
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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by KBABZ » Thu May 31, 2018 10:47 pm

sintzu wrote:I...I don't know. Does she have what it takes to hold an entire arc on her own ? I can see them using her base form in a bigger plot but that majin thing... :sick:
I was more thinking the character, not the entire plot of FighterZ being turned into an arc. Fighting endless clones for thirty episodes is not compelling content (although with Super you can never really put it past them to try it), but 21 is probably the most interesting and dynamic female character the franchise has ever had as far as I'm aware.

The majin thing I was okay with, her scene with Buu where they become friends was 100% squee for me because of how friendly they were to each other, although certain elements of her costume design I felt were... cut a bit too low, if you catch my drift.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by sintzu » Thu May 31, 2018 10:59 pm

KBABZ wrote:
sintzu wrote:I...I don't know. Does she have what it takes to hold an entire arc on her own ? I can see them using her base form in a bigger plot but that majin thing... :sick:
I was more thinking the character, not the entire plot of FighterZ being turned into an arc. Fighting endless clones for thirty episodes is not compelling content (although with Super you can never really put it past them to try it), but 21 is probably the most interesting and dynamic female character the franchise has ever had as far as I'm aware.

The majin thing I was okay with, her scene with Buu where they become friends was 100% squee for me because of how friendly they were to each other, although certain elements of her costume design I felt were... cut a bit too low, if you catch my drift.
I think her base form may be workable as a part in a bigger arc, maybe working with the main villains while also reporting back to the heroes as a double agent.
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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by Grimlock » Thu May 31, 2018 11:01 pm

KBABZ wrote:While I know that the game canon is often considered rather inferior to any Tori/Toyo manga or animated show canon,
In what sense?

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by KBABZ » Thu May 31, 2018 11:06 pm

sintzu wrote:I think her base form may be workable as a part in a bigger arc, maybe working with the main villains while also reporting back to the heroes as a double agent.
True, maybe a friendly rival to Bulma? As for her pinker side, she proved to be very, very powerful, but obviously had to get used to actually having to fight. That was something that I felt was a very unique angle for Dragon Ball, a character who has to fight, is more than capable of doing the job, but is 100% unused to actually having to do it. The closest we've gotten to that was the early goings of Gohan's training.
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KBABZ wrote:While I know that the game canon is often considered rather inferior to any Tori/Toyo manga or animated show canon,
In what sense?
Well in that any unique storyline that happens in the games, even one as faithful as FighterZ's is, is almost always 100% ignored when it comes to the ongoing storyline in the core manga or anime series. Like, I don't expect anything from Xenoverse to show up in Super anytime soon.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by Logania » Thu May 31, 2018 11:13 pm

I wouldn't mind 21 being in the story. Honestly if they flesh out her character a bit more and get rid of the stupid soul transfer ideas and excessive clones, it'd be pretty nice to see.

Although for some reason when I see her in the small clip of DB Heroes, she just looks...odd. Maybe I'm just used to seeing her in FighterZ which looks amazing that comparing it to the anime tidbit is unfair.
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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by KBABZ » Thu May 31, 2018 11:49 pm

Logania wrote:I wouldn't mind 21 being in the story. Honestly if they flesh out her character a bit more and get rid of the stupid soul transfer ideas and excessive clones, it'd be pretty nice to see.
Oh yeah, the soul transfer and clone stuff was pretty dumb, I was more referring to her character. Although I will say that it was pretty cool how 18 handled the soul stuff in the game.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by Kanassa » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 am

I mean, all she really has is the fanservice aspect and her connection to Gero and Sixteen, nothing really about her character herself really stands out as good enough to stand on her own without some additions and rewrites.
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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:27 am

Kanassa wrote:I mean, all she really has is the fanservice aspect and her connection to Gero and Sixteen, nothing really about her character herself really stands out as good enough to stand on her own without some additions and rewrites.
I thought she had a really interesting psychological relationship to her evil side and hunger, she was incredibly intelligent, and she's one of the few capable fighters who, while not reluctant to fight, had no experience in the matter.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:31 am

All the stuff involving Gero having a son who was a Red Ribbon soldier that was one of the many cannon fodder grunts killed by Goku during his raid on Red Ribbon HQ and modeling #16 on him, and #21 being modeled on the woman scientist he had the kid with... all of this stuff is excellent backstory, that frankly should've been in the original manga/anime run, as it provides excellent context and motivation for Gero and it improves both him as a character and the storyline of that arc immeasurably.

Not only does it provide Gero with a much stronger and genuinely sympathetic motivation to go to the lengths he does to obsess over Goku for close to 20 years for revenge, it also has Goku's past careless actions in an earlier arc have DIRE consequences much, much later on down the line. Plus it adds even more genuine pathos to #16 as a character (and 16's a fairly cool character who is ultimately given too little to do overall in that arc as it is). That's just damn effective writing; or at least it WOULD'VE been had it actually been part of the original manga/anime storyline back in the day.

Beyond that though... honestly, having now played through the entirety of FighterZ story mode, yeah the story there overall is hot garbage, and I wouldn't want just about ANY of it (the soul transferring, which is as video gamey a concept as it gets, the clones, all of it) in the main series. Even by video game plot standards, this stuff is generic and stupid as all get out and makes Plan to Eradicate the Saiya-jin look absolutely brilliant in comparison (in all seriousness, that OVA/video game doesn't have an altogether bad story all things considered: it was good enough to be recycled and improved upon for GT with the Baby arc).

I think that without having #21 already present and involved in the original Cell/Jinzoningen arc back in the day (which along with #16's backstory, gets filed under "would've, should've, could've"), I just... have a hard time thinking what you could possibly do to have her suddenly turn up, post-Boo arc so many years after the fact, that wouldn't come across as horribly contrived.

FighterZ story mode has it where Gero didn't just have the one, but a whole bunch of underground laboratories hidden all over the world, and she happened to be chilling in one of them all this time. I mean... Gero having maybe a COUPLE other labs scattered about I can buy and roll with (giving him a whole shitload is ridiculous and makes him into too much of a Bond villain); but even allowing for that, why would #21 just spend all these years doing fuck-all before suddenly, randomly showing up out of the blue years and years down the line?

I suppose it depends on what kind of core story and circumstances you'd write for it as a setup, but it'd take an AWFUL lot of narrative gymnastics to slot her into things this far down the line in a way that comes across as organic and plausible. Enough for me to say its probably not at all worth it ultimately, for as little as #21 would potentially bring to the table with the Cell/Jinzoningen arc long over with, #16 gone, and Gero no longer relevant.

As things stand, the Cell arc juuuuuuust about holds together well enough as it is: the lack of pre-Cell arc foreshadowing earlier in the series for Gero (having him actually BE a visible character who survives the Red Ribbon arc, little things like possibly having Tao Pai Pai offhandedly mention getting his cyber upgrades from "some crazy old man who has it in bad for Goku" during the 23rd Budokai, etc.) somewhat hurts things already, but is perfectly understandable and ultimately forgivable given that Toriyama didn't plan out the Cell arc anywhere remotely near that far back in advance. Its not strictly necessary for the story to work, but it would've been nice and helped it come across more smoothly.

Gero's motivation that we ARE given in-series (the destruction of the Red Ribbon Army completely wiped out all his life's work) works okay enough as boilerplate mad scientist stuff... but not having the whole family angle until some guidebooks and interviews with Toriyama around 20 years after the fact? Man that could've REALLY helped the story had Toriyama thought to include it in the actual manga at the time back when it would've mattered.

I guess having #21 turn up now (and with her, bringing all that back history about Gero's son and #16 into some incarnation of the "main" series) can be seen as a belated, after-the-fact making up for that original oversight... but again, I don't see how you could plausibly and organically slot her into things THIS later on in without having it come across as exceedingly forced and contrived.

Giving Gero a handful of smaller labs scattered around that she could be squirreled away within COULD potentially work... provided you come up with something REALLY good to act as an excuse for her to have been just hanging around there for all these years without so much as a peep. Maybe do something similar to Artificial Humans 13, 14, and 15 in Movie 7 and have her being worked on/built by an automated computer at one of the labs, and not have her finished/awakened until now?

And lets say you do that... what then? To what end would she serve from there, this far out removed from the conclusion of the whole Cell/Artificial Humans arc? And what of #16? Do you do as FighterZ did and have her rebuild #16 from scratch and bring him back into things? Again, to what end? Whatever it is, it damn well better be something a fuckload better than a bunch of generic Z Warrior clones and soul transfer nonsense.

Like I said, its not impossible to make this work... you'd just have to jump through maybe a few too many hoops to where I'd have to ask if its even ultimately worth it in the end.
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Lets hope not anyway. Xenoverse's stories are for the most part Dragon Ball Heroes-levels of moronic. And Super has enough issues with it as it is without having all THAT nonsensical crap invading into it.
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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:42 am

If I were to take a crack at it, I'd have an abridged version of FighterZ's story that works for the current point in the story, and take only certain aspects of it rather than telling a 100% replica of that story. Skip resurrecting all of the villains (that was mainly to justify their return as combatants) and cut out the soul transfer stuff meant to connect with eight year old players (no idea why they did that because FighterZs can be quite tough). Have it be covered in a sort of abridged version of the Android Arc side of the story mixed with the Hero Arc bits, where we think 21 is a villain before discovering the psychotic hunger personality thing later. The clones would appear but only as fodder to tempt 21 going crazy. The split happens, and she decides to turn to our heroes. Keep the scenes where she interacts with characters like Buu, and they go off to tackle 21 and stop her from eating entire cities like Buu used to do. I'd change the finale to happen somewhere else, maybe one of the worlds orbiting Beerus' place to remove the rather obvious parallel to the Kai World finale of the Buu arc. This could take place over the course of about ten episodes, making it a shorter stop-gap arc to introduce 21 for later adventures.

As for WHY 21 was absent, I think I have a good one for this version of the story. She was experimented on by Gero, but he hid her away in a water tank thing much like Cell, this time in his old lab at RRA HQ. At a certain point the power of the lab keeping her alive runs dry due to the absence of its owner, so the computer decides to release her so that she doesn't die. Cue the events of the story. I don't think #16 should make a physical, non-flashback appearance, but his origins and true connections to Gero could easily be discussed by 21. I also think that 21 should be able to flip between her human and majin forms at well, as I always found it a bit odd that the switch to majin was a permanent one in the game.

On the subject of what to do with her later, well, that's ultimately up to the writers to figure out. I think Toriyama writes stories from the perspective of what can happen to Goku and Vegeta next and then figures out where everyone fits as a secondary factor, which might explain why many characters fade into the background. Dragon Ball isn't really written in a way where "and for this set of chapters we explore Goten/Yamcha/revisit an old character and flesh them out and challenge them as a character", at least to me.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by Toxin45 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:03 am

KBABZ wrote:If I were to take a crack at it, I'd have an abridged version of FighterZ's story that works for the current point in the story, and take only certain aspects of it rather than telling a 100% replica of that story. Skip resurrecting all of the villains (that was mainly to justify their return as combatants) and cut out the soul transfer stuff meant to connect with eight year old players (no idea why they did that because FighterZs can be quite tough). Have it be covered in a sort of abridged version of the Android Arc side of the story mixed with the Hero Arc bits, where we think 21 is a villain before discovering the psychotic hunger personality thing later. The clones would appear but only as fodder to tempt 21 going crazy. The split happens, and she decides to turn to our heroes. Keep the scenes where she interacts with characters like Buu, and they go off to tackle 21 and stop her from eating entire cities like Buu used to do. I'd change the finale to happen somewhere else, maybe one of the worlds orbiting Beerus' place to remove the rather obvious parallel to the Kai World finale of the Buu arc. This could take place over the course of about ten episodes, making it a shorter stop-gap arc to introduce 21 for later adventures.

As for WHY 21 was absent, I think I have a good one for this version of the story. She was experimented on by Gero, but he hid her away in a water tank thing much like Cell, this time in his old lab at RRA HQ. At a certain point the power of the lab keeping her alive runs dry due to the absence of its owner, so the computer decides to release her so that she doesn't die. Cue the events of the story. I don't think #16 should make a physical, non-flashback appearance, but his origins and true connections to Gero could easily be discussed by 21. I also think that 21 should be able to flip between her human and majin forms at well, as I always found it a bit odd that the switch to majin was a permanent one in the game.

On the subject of what to do with her later, well, that's ultimately up to the writers to figure out. I think Toriyama writes stories from the perspective of what can happen to Goku and Vegeta next and then figures out where everyone fits as a secondary factor, which might explain why many characters fade into the background. Dragon Ball isn't really written in a way where "and for this set of chapters we explore Goten/Yamcha/revisit an old character and flesh them out and challenge them as a character", at least to me.
Well I don't mind the villains arc but I think Frieza is enough give that he was the villain protagonist of that game's arc like with goku for the heroes and android 18 in the 21 arc.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:26 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:All the stuff involving Gero having a son who was a Red Ribbon soldier that was one of the many cannon fodder grunts killed by Goku during his raid on Red Ribbon HQ and modeling #16 on him, and #21 being modeled on the woman scientist he had the kid with... all of this stuff is excellent backstory, that frankly should've been in the original manga/anime run, as it provides excellent context and motivation for Gero and it improves both him as a character and the storyline of that arc immeasurably.

Not only does it provide Gero with a much stronger and genuinely sympathetic motivation to go to the lengths he does to obsess over Goku for close to 20 years for revenge, it also has Goku's past careless actions in an earlier arc have DIRE consequences much, much later on down the line. Plus it adds even more genuine pathos to #16 as a character (and 16's a fairly cool character who is ultimately given too little to do overall in that arc as it is). That's just damn effective writing; or at least it WOULD'VE been had it actually been part of the original manga/anime storyline back in the day.
This statement surprises surprises me. Even if it had been in the series, I think it just sounds trite. His obsession with Goku works fine in the series by virtue of Goku being the biggest impediment to Dr. Gero's goal.
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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:41 pm

Toxin45 wrote:Well I don't mind the villains arc but I think Frieza is enough give that he was the villain protagonist of that game's arc like with goku for the heroes and android 18 in the 21 arc.
Cutting him from my hypotetical story I felt is required because that plot is really 100% ancillary (the Android Arc basically ignores it), plus the revival of all those villains would be completely implausible in the current state of the story, with the exception of Frieza.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by Fizzer » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:34 pm

Like other's have said, the backstory of #16 and #21 being Gero's son and wife would have added much depth to the cell arc. Honestly in retrospect #21 could have replaced #19, who had no significance at all and was just a partner for #20. It would have much cooler to find out that Gero had mechanised himself and was reaping revenge alongside an android based on his wife.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:04 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:All the stuff involving Gero having a son who was a Red Ribbon soldier that was one of the many cannon fodder grunts killed by Goku during his raid on Red Ribbon HQ and modeling #16 on him, and #21 being modeled on the woman scientist he had the kid with... all of this stuff is excellent backstory, that frankly should've been in the original manga/anime run, as it provides excellent context and motivation for Gero and it improves both him as a character and the storyline of that arc immeasurably.

Not only does it provide Gero with a much stronger and genuinely sympathetic motivation to go to the lengths he does to obsess over Goku for close to 20 years for revenge, it also has Goku's past careless actions in an earlier arc have DIRE consequences much, much later on down the line. Plus it adds even more genuine pathos to #16 as a character (and 16's a fairly cool character who is ultimately given too little to do overall in that arc as it is). That's just damn effective writing; or at least it WOULD'VE been had it actually been part of the original manga/anime storyline back in the day.

Beyond that though... honestly, having now played through the entirety of FighterZ story mode, yeah the story there overall is hot garbage, and I wouldn't want just about ANY of it (the soul transferring, which is as video gamey a concept as it gets, the clones, all of it) in the main series. Even by video game plot standards, this stuff is generic and stupid as all get out and makes Plan to Eradicate the Saiya-jin look absolutely brilliant in comparison (in all seriousness, that OVA/video game doesn't have an altogether bad story all things considered: it was good enough to be recycled and improved upon for GT with the Baby arc).

I think that without having #21 already present and involved in the original Cell/Jinzoningen arc back in the day (which along with #16's backstory, gets filed under "would've, should've, could've"), I just... have a hard time thinking what you could possibly do to have her suddenly turn up, post-Boo arc so many years after the fact, that wouldn't come across as horribly contrived.

FighterZ story mode has it where Gero didn't just have the one, but a whole bunch of underground laboratories hidden all over the world, and she happened to be chilling in one of them all this time. I mean... Gero having maybe a COUPLE other labs scattered about I can buy and roll with (giving him a whole shitload is ridiculous and makes him into too much of a Bond villain); but even allowing for that, why would #21 just spend all these years doing fuck-all before suddenly, randomly showing up out of the blue years and years down the line?

I suppose it depends on what kind of core story and circumstances you'd write for it as a setup, but it'd take an AWFUL lot of narrative gymnastics to slot her into things this far down the line in a way that comes across as organic and plausible. Enough for me to say its probably not at all worth it ultimately, for as little as #21 would potentially bring to the table with the Cell/Jinzoningen arc long over with, #16 gone, and Gero no longer relevant.

As things stand, the Cell arc juuuuuuust about holds together well enough as it is: the lack of pre-Cell arc foreshadowing earlier in the series for Gero (having him actually BE a visible character who survives the Red Ribbon arc, little things like possibly having Tao Pai Pai offhandedly mention getting his cyber upgrades from "some crazy old man who has it in bad for Goku" during the 23rd Budokai, etc.) somewhat hurts things already, but is perfectly understandable and ultimately forgivable given that Toriyama didn't plan out the Cell arc anywhere remotely near that far back in advance. Its not strictly necessary for the story to work, but it would've been nice and helped it come across more smoothly.

Gero's motivation that we ARE given in-series (the destruction of the Red Ribbon Army completely wiped out all his life's work) works okay enough as boilerplate mad scientist stuff... but not having the whole family angle until some guidebooks and interviews with Toriyama around 20 years after the fact? Man that could've REALLY helped the story had Toriyama thought to include it in the actual manga at the time back when it would've mattered.

I guess having #21 turn up now (and with her, bringing all that back history about Gero's son and #16 into some incarnation of the "main" series) can be seen as a belated, after-the-fact making up for that original oversight... but again, I don't see how you could plausibly and organically slot her into things THIS later on in without having it come across as exceedingly forced and contrived.

Giving Gero a handful of smaller labs scattered around that she could be squirreled away within COULD potentially work... provided you come up with something REALLY good to act as an excuse for her to have been just hanging around there for all these years without so much as a peep. Maybe do something similar to Artificial Humans 13, 14, and 15 in Movie 7 and have her being worked on/built by an automated computer at one of the labs, and not have her finished/awakened until now?

And lets say you do that... what then? To what end would she serve from there, this far out removed from the conclusion of the whole Cell/Artificial Humans arc? And what of #16? Do you do as FighterZ did and have her rebuild #16 from scratch and bring him back into things? Again, to what end? Whatever it is, it damn well better be something a fuckload better than a bunch of generic Z Warrior clones and soul transfer nonsense.

Like I said, its not impossible to make this work... you'd just have to jump through maybe a few too many hoops to where I'd have to ask if its even ultimately worth it in the end.
KBABZ wrote:Like, I don't expect anything from Xenoverse to show up in Super anytime soon.
Lets hope not anyway. Xenoverse's stories are for the most part Dragon Ball Heroes-levels of moronic. And Super has enough issues with it as it is without having all THAT nonsensical crap invading into it.
Didn’t Toriyama state that the death of Gero’s son was unrelated to Goku. I know that TFS decided to go with the “Gero hates Goku because he killed his son” angle, but as far as I know, even with Gero’s new backstory, Goku had nothing to do with his son’s death.

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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:24 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Didn’t Toriyama state that the death of Gero’s son was unrelated to Goku. I know that TFS decided to go with the “Gero hates Goku because he killed his son” angle, but as far as I know, even with Gero’s new backstory, Goku had nothing to do with his son’s death.
The full color manga interview did say he died in the field, yeah. His going in the Red Ribbon raid would have been killer, course.
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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by LightBing » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:44 am

The only thing I would bring back is the character design for #21 and the backstory(being Gero's wife).
Just with this you already have the excuse why she's so powerful and why she would oppose the gang.

Like most storylines in Dragon Ball it's oozing with potential.

Personally I would go a type of story around the time Cell first appeared. Where you have a bunch of treats and most of the cast involved in some way trying to solve the puzzle.
#21 would be trying to acquire her full power will struggling with her humanity, while weaker robots caused havoc to help her succeed.
Add some machines that suppressed power, new moderately powerful Androids and the adventure setting of the RR arc.

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KBABZ
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Re: Should elements of FighterZ's story mode show up in animated canon?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:18 pm

LightBing wrote:Add some machines that suppressed power, new moderately powerful Androids and the adventure setting of the RR arc.
Oohh! I love the idea of the story being quite global! Reminds me of the original Android arc and early Cell arc.

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