Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:44 am

It's not more professional, both scores are unfitting for Dragon Ball but the Faulconer score is the lesser of two evils. I found the GT dubbed episodes much harder to get through with Menza's score than dubbed Z with Faulconer.
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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:51 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:It's not more professional, both scores are unfitting for Dragon Ball but the Faulconer score is the lesser of two evils. I found the GT dubbed episodes much harder to get through with Menza's score than dubbed Z with Faulconer.
I disagree. Yes, both are awful, but whereas Menza's score is droning, it falls into the background, Faulconer's is loud and announces itself.
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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by Kokonoe » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:35 am

ABED wrote:How was the Faulconer score any more professional than Menza's?
Incredibly generic, nothing remotely memorable whereas Faulconer Productions OST had some iconic and timeless songs that even Japanese purists have to admit are good like SS3 Goku, or SS1 Vegeta.

And tbh, I find it hard to believe anyone would actually hate the composition of Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnSCgMTXC9s

That slow soft build up with the beautiful synth, the slow hitting beats that rise into the soft but powerful guitar as Goku hits his form. It's such a subtle song but conveys to me the feeling that Goku's been on this journey and is finally at his pinnacle, and his anger is rising throughout the track. It's such a magnificent song and there's not a single thing on Menza's that even compares.

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:00 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
ABED wrote:How was the Faulconer score any more professional than Menza's?
Incredibly generic, nothing remotely memorable whereas Faulconer Productions OST had some iconic and timeless songs that even Japanese purists have to admit are good like SS3 Goku, or SS1 Vegeta.

And tbh, I find it hard to believe anyone would actually hate the composition of Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnSCgMTXC9s

That slow soft build up with the beautiful synth, the slow hitting beats that rise into the soft but powerful guitar as Goku hits his form. It's such a subtle song but conveys to me the feeling that Goku's been on this journey and is finally at his pinnacle, and his anger is rising throughout the track. It's such a magnificent song and there's not a single thing on Menza's that even compares.
With the exception of the SS3 theme, I'm not a fan at all. Let's also be real, it's not an iconic score. We may remember it, but not because it's good. I remember many of those tunes, but mostly because how terrible and how ill fitting they are. I'd rather have the score fade into the background than be up in my face.

As for the SSJ1 theme, I don't hate it, but I don't care for it either. It's the sort of song terms like "meh" is made for. The moment is supposed to be scary, not about reaching some pinnacle. There's nothing beautiful about Faulconer's composition in that scene. It's cheap.
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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:46 pm

ABED wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:
ABED wrote:How was the Faulconer score any more professional than Menza's?
Incredibly generic, nothing remotely memorable whereas Faulconer Productions OST had some iconic and timeless songs that even Japanese purists have to admit are good like SS3 Goku, or SS1 Vegeta.

And tbh, I find it hard to believe anyone would actually hate the composition of Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnSCgMTXC9s

That slow soft build up with the beautiful synth, the slow hitting beats that rise into the soft but powerful guitar as Goku hits his form. It's such a subtle song but conveys to me the feeling that Goku's been on this journey and is finally at his pinnacle, and his anger is rising throughout the track. It's such a magnificent song and there's not a single thing on Menza's that even compares.
With the exception of the SS3 theme, I'm not a fan at all. Let's also be real, it's not an iconic score. We may remember it, but not because it's good. I remember many of those tunes, but mostly because how terrible and how ill fitting they are. I'd rather have the score fade into the background than be up in my face.

As for the SSJ1 theme, I don't hate it, but I don't care for it either. It's the sort of song terms like "meh" is made for. The moment is supposed to be scary, not about reaching some pinnacle. There's nothing beautiful about Faulconer's composition in that scene. It's cheap.
I have stated in an similar way previously that i personally don't have a deep nostalgic attachment to the Faulconer Productions score that some fans have, yes it was what i was exposed to with watching the old Z dub on Cartoon Network as a kid back in the early 2000's but at it's core it is an obsolete relic. It is a product of the times back when licensors of anime replacing the original score was a regular practice. Dragon Ball Z was not the only show of the dub era to get a score replacement, as we also had such examples like the DiC/Cloverway dubs of Sailor Moon and many more (4Kids One Piece.etc) and the simple fact is that barring a few exceptions most dubs these days exclusively have kept the original musical score intact and left replacement scores of the type that Faulconer Productions and Mark Menza composed behind.

Personally, to me it's just a wall to wall synthesized assault and doesn't give me that same type of charm that the Kikuchi score has.

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by Kokonoe » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:16 pm

ABED wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:
ABED wrote:How was the Faulconer score any more professional than Menza's?
Incredibly generic, nothing remotely memorable whereas Faulconer Productions OST had some iconic and timeless songs that even Japanese purists have to admit are good like SS3 Goku, or SS1 Vegeta.

And tbh, I find it hard to believe anyone would actually hate the composition of Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnSCgMTXC9s

That slow soft build up with the beautiful synth, the slow hitting beats that rise into the soft but powerful guitar as Goku hits his form. It's such a subtle song but conveys to me the feeling that Goku's been on this journey and is finally at his pinnacle, and his anger is rising throughout the track. It's such a magnificent song and there's not a single thing on Menza's that even compares.
With the exception of the SS3 theme, I'm not a fan at all. Let's also be real, it's not an iconic score. We may remember it, but not because it's good. I remember many of those tunes, but mostly because how terrible and how ill fitting they are. I'd rather have the score fade into the background than be up in my face.

As for the SSJ1 theme, I don't hate it, but I don't care for it either. It's the sort of song terms like "meh" is made for. The moment is supposed to be scary, not about reaching some pinnacle. There's nothing beautiful about Faulconer's composition in that scene. It's cheap.
It's iconic and I'll always consider it to be. The fact that so many people try to put that music on random newer content to this day is proof of that honestly. The last time Faulconer's music was on day time TV was like mid 2000s, that's a long time ago and just the sheer amount of people, the views these songs get, how much it still gets talked about, it has to be iconic. If it wasn't, then it would've faded into obscurity with how much time has passed.

Honestly, I like Kikuchi's but the OST runs kinda dry on me in a lot of places. Say the Super Saiyan Goku part, like how can I be scared with such basic music? How do I feel Goku's power when it feels like I'm hearing 80's basic orchestra stuff like the Thundercats OST? It's not really making me feel anything, it feels boring in these moments. When I listen to Faulconer's in these transformation sequences, I get that feel of their power. I get that this is a special moment and not just a typical power up.

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:55 pm

John Williams' Star Wars score, Gonna Fly Now, the theme to Cheers... are all iconic. They are remembered long past when they aired and to people who haven't even seen those films or TV shows. Faulconer's score is fondly remembered by a group of fans because of an attachment to a show from their childhood.
how can I be scared with such basic music?
It's not the music alone. It's the music, the sky growing dark, Goku's sobbing and convulsing and his primal scream, and Gohan & Freeza's reactions that are supposed to lend an air of mystery and foreboding because this is something they and we've never seen before. Goku's best friend has just been murdered. This isn't a moment of triumph. To bring this around to GT, I'd rather have bad music I don't remember than bad music I do remember. By the time GT rolled around, the actors benefitted from greater experience, a larger talent pool and a score that faded into the background. Everything about the Z dub is so loud, and I'm not talking about volume.
How do I feel Goku's power when it feels like I'm hearing 80's basic orchestra stuff like the Thundercats OST?
And how am I supposed to feel about Goku's power when all I hear is cheap synth? DB's music is supposed to sound like older music you'd find in an old Hong Kong action movie.

GT could use a redub but I don't care enough to watch the dub again for it to matter to me. I'd rather it be a relic of the past that FUNi learned from and apply lessons to improve their future dubs.
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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:55 pm

Iconic or not, the Kikuchi track for Goku's Super Saiyan Transformation totally blows the Faulconer Productions score out of the water.

Kikchi's track the kind of song that gives you chills and lingers in your mind for some time after watching the scene. You really feel the weight of Goku's anguish, the appropriate darkness in tone for the bolts of thunder, the feeling of terror as Freeza looks upon Goku signifying his paranoia about the Super Saiyan legend, and the slow build up from the waves to the rocks levitating. It's just perfect from start to finish, just perfectly placed, paced and executed.

The Faulconer track doesn't have the same gravitas. It sounds extremely cheap and artificial and lacks the sheer magnitude of what is happening at that time and just falls flat on its face.

Getting back to GT, fortunately in the extremely unlikely event it ever gets a redub I have no reason to believe it would not be remixed with the Tokunaga score, so much like on the Green bricks you can always ignore the Menza score if you don't like it. It's in no way essential to watching GT in English, or to watch GT in English at all, unless your watching the Blue Water dub, which I'd say despite its flaws is worth at least one watch.
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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by Kokonoe » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:56 pm

That scene is trash in the Japanese variation as far as I'm concerned due to the incredibly dull music. Music is everything, how can you fail the most important part of that arc?

And don't even get me started on the music used in the Bio-Broly movie. Absolute dull trash.

Kikuchi's OST is hit and miss as much as some people might want to say it's perfection, it truly is an overrated OST with most of the strong points being the vocal tracks and stuff like Solid State Scouter, but not all of it is bangers or suited well to the scenes. It gets hella dated whereas Faulconer's remain timeless to this day.

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:13 pm

None of the replacement scores truly fit DB. They don't understand the genre or the story. I do have a soft spot for the Wasserman score, but that's about it. GT's tried to repack the show as something more "hardcore" than it actually is.

One thing I love about the season sets is the dubbed songs. I wish they had done that with Cha La Head Cha La and We Gotta Power. In a hypothetical redub, they are keeping them.

How is Faulconer timeless?
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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by NewKakarot » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:19 pm

Bruce Faulconer's score only really works with Super Saiyan 3 tbh. Other than that, it reeks of the time period it's from. That's how I first remember experiencing Dragon Ball Z, but it's really hard to go back to.

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:32 pm

The replacement scores tried to make GT, and Dragon Ball in general for that matter hardcore, but Dragon Ball was never hardcore to begin with. It was inspired by a classic work of Chinese literature and is at its core a light hearted adventure tale utilizing martial arts and ki energy (which is more of a spiritual thing). There's nothing hardcore about it at all. It's complete baloney and a holdover from the Barry Watson days, thankfully nowadays Funimation understands what the series is all about and dubs it accordingly.
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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:03 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:The replacement scores tried to make GT, and Dragon Ball in general for that matter hardcore, but Dragon Ball was never hardcore to begin with. It was inspired by a classic work of Chinese literature and is at its core a light hearted adventure tale utilizing martial arts and ki energy (which is more of a spiritual thing). There's nothing hardcore about it at all. It's complete baloney and a holdover from the Barry Watson days, thankfully nowadays Funimation understands what the series is all about and dubs it accordingly.
Funny thing is, the scores Mark Menza did for some of the movies weren’t really all that hardcore sounding. The dub theme he provided, for example, is pretty laid back. I don’t even really blame him for the lackluster score he did for GT, since people like Barry Watson were the ones who insisted that GT come across as more hardcore and “cool” than it actually is, and I don’t think “edgy” music is really Menza’s thing.

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:20 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:The replacement scores tried to make GT, and Dragon Ball in general for that matter hardcore, but Dragon Ball was never hardcore to begin with. It was inspired by a classic work of Chinese literature and is at its core a light hearted adventure tale utilizing martial arts and ki energy (which is more of a spiritual thing). There's nothing hardcore about it at all. It's complete baloney and a holdover from the Barry Watson days, thankfully nowadays Funimation understands what the series is all about and dubs it accordingly.
Funny thing is, the scores Mark Menza did for some of the movies weren’t really all that hardcore sounding. The dub theme he provided, for example, is pretty laid back. I don’t even really blame him for the lackluster score he did for GT, since people like Barry Watson were the ones who insisted that GT come across as more hardcore and “cool” than it actually is, and I don’t think “edgy” music is really Menza’s thing.
The movies are an even bigger crime when it comes to changing the feel and tone of the series and trying to pander to American adolescents. I can appreciate the work of Disturbed, Deaftones, Pantera, Sum 41 but in the context of Dragon Ball? Doesn't work. Their songs just kill the moments and even if you've never heard those band's music you can clearly tell they were not intended for that scene or vice versa. Menza's score is just dull and dreary all the time and really lacks any sort of range.
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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:24 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:The replacement scores tried to make GT, and Dragon Ball in general for that matter hardcore, but Dragon Ball was never hardcore to begin with. It was inspired by a classic work of Chinese literature and is at its core a light hearted adventure tale utilizing martial arts and ki energy (which is more of a spiritual thing). There's nothing hardcore about it at all. It's complete baloney and a holdover from the Barry Watson days, thankfully nowadays Funimation understands what the series is all about and dubs it accordingly.
Funny thing is, the scores Mark Menza did for some of the movies weren’t really all that hardcore sounding. The dub theme he provided, for example, is pretty laid back. I don’t even really blame him for the lackluster score he did for GT, since people like Barry Watson were the ones who insisted that GT come across as more hardcore and “cool” than it actually is, and I don’t think “edgy” music is really Menza’s thing.
The movies are an even bigger crime when it comes to changing the feel and tone of the series and trying to pander to American adolescents. I can appreciate the work of Disturbed, Deaftones, Pantera, Sum 41 but in the context of Dragon Ball? Doesn't work. Their songs just kill the moments and even if you've never heard those band's music you can clearly tell they were not intended for that scene or vice versa. Menza's score is just dull and dreary all the time and really lacks any sort of range.
I’m not talking about that stuff. I’m talking about the music he did for something like The Return of Cooler.

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:26 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:The replacement scores tried to make GT, and Dragon Ball in general for that matter hardcore, but Dragon Ball was never hardcore to begin with. It was inspired by a classic work of Chinese literature and is at its core a light hearted adventure tale utilizing martial arts and ki energy (which is more of a spiritual thing). There's nothing hardcore about it at all. It's complete baloney and a holdover from the Barry Watson days, thankfully nowadays Funimation understands what the series is all about and dubs it accordingly.
Funny thing is, the scores Mark Menza did for some of the movies weren’t really all that hardcore sounding. The dub theme he provided, for example, is pretty laid back. I don’t even really blame him for the lackluster score he did for GT, since people like Barry Watson were the ones who insisted that GT come across as more hardcore and “cool” than it actually is, and I don’t think “edgy” music is really Menza’s thing.
Yes, clearly the decisions regarding those type of things were made by Watson and other executives in charge of FUNi at the time who are no longer there anymore. They felt the need to do all of the things they did to appeal to a certain group and be all hardcore and such when it was never intended to be, and clearly the FUNimation of today is a country mile from the company it was in 1999 when they brought DBZ's dub in house. Things such as music replacement and the overall tone the dubs gave are pretty much distant relics of a bygone era as they have made improvements in their adaptation style, and if things like DBZ Kai and other dubs like One Piece are anything to go by they have come very far as a dub production company.

Simply put, they don't approach the series with that outdated 1990's mindset of altering anime series' so radically in order to make it more western friendly or whatever their other reasons were.

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:10 pm

One thing I'll say about the Faulconer scores, they are indeed quite memorable. Cheaply composed? Perhaps. But memorable, and fairly creative at times. That said, I don't think it's fair to compare the Faulconer score to the original Japanese. It's obvious they were each made with different interpretations, and for different audiences.
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:The replacement scores tried to make GT, and Dragon Ball in general for that matter hardcore, but Dragon Ball was never hardcore to begin with. It was inspired by a classic work of Chinese literature and is at its core a light hearted adventure tale utilizing martial arts and ki energy (which is more of a spiritual thing). There's nothing hardcore about it at all. It's complete baloney and a holdover from the Barry Watson days, thankfully nowadays Funimation understands what the series is all about and dubs it accordingly.
I think Dragon Ball, especially DBZ, can be considered "hardcore" in many ways. Just because it's based on Chinese folklore and mythology doesn't mean it has to be light-hearted/spiritual. Funimation's replacement scores are definitely a different take on the original anime, but it's not totally uninspired and makes for a convincing remake at least.
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:The movies are an even bigger crime when it comes to changing the feel and tone of the series and trying to pander to American adolescents. I can appreciate the work of Disturbed, Deaftones, Pantera, Sum 41 but in the context of Dragon Ball? Doesn't work. Their songs just kill the moments and even if you've never heard those band's music you can clearly tell they were not intended for that scene or vice versa.
I think that including those bands in the movies was one of the smartest decisions that FUNi ever made. If there was any occasion where popular rock music could be used in relation to Dragon Ball, the movies were it. Those films are mostly style over substance anyhow, so what better opportunity to do something special while reinforcing the "hardcore" image in the music. I thought the songs breathed new life and energy into the moments.

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:18 pm

FUNi didn't produce an adaptation. They took the existing series and replaced the music and dialog tracks. It's still Toriyama's story. The tone of the dub should be dictated by the series. The dub's interpretation of the story is just WRONG. It's objectively wrong.
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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:12 pm

ABED wrote:FUNi didn't produce an adaptation. They took the existing series and replaced the music and dialog tracks. It's still Toriyama's story. The tone of the dub should be dictated by the series. The dub's interpretation of the story is just WRONG. It's objectively wrong.
I think that Toriyama's story is open to different interpretations. If it weren't, would Funimation have been able to produce a successful dub to the extent that they did? The music was different, but it worked. The dialogue was different, but it worked. You could argue that the dub's interpretation was objectively wrong, maybe. But subjectively?

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Re: Is It Time For A Redub? Dragon Ball GT

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:39 pm

You seem to imply that it's the interpretation that allowed DB to become a success in the US. It's Toriyama's story and artwork that has captured people's imaginations, not a poorly produced dub.
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