So I rewatched Dragon Ball GT

[ABED]

And since when Baby was introduced on M-2 lmao?

Episode 22 is when Baby was introduced. Why are you laughing? That's what happened.

Those two sagas are just connected. And Baby's appearance as well as Giru proving that he is a friend work as conclusion.
The reason why Baby saga starts from EP23 is that it's when Baby himself take control of everything and when he starts his own plan.
Before that, even on M-2, the main goal of villains was to get dragon balls which fits well with this saga being "Black Star Dragon Ball" saga because it's time where both protagonists and antagonists look for them.

But Baby is introduced in the episode prior. Giru proving he is an ally doesn't work as the conclusion because the arc wasn't about him. The main goal of Rildo and Dr. Mu is to get the DB's and energy FOR BABY. There is no conclusion to the hunt for the DB's until Baby makes his wish. For something to be an arc, it has to have a climax and a resolution.

Watching Goku and Vegeta beat the crap out of each-other for 10 episodes sounds like utter torture to me, and I consider the weakest part of the Saiyan arc to be the parts where it's just the two of them coming to blows.
The thing that makes the fights good for me is when there's actually stuff going on

In Z, the whole Vegeta end fight lasts 6 episodes, 4 in Kai. The one on one battle is approximately half those. I get your point, as action can get tiresome, but it's dependent on execution, and the whole Vegeta fight is among the best in all of DB. I often don't like when other stuff is going on because it feels like a distraction. The fights are the story. Toriyama has the ability to craft compelling action. Cutaways can hurt momentum. GT's fights were boring. They lacked impact. DB's fights are great when they are brutal and you can practically feel the hits.

[sintzu]

The next time I watch it I'll watch it in japanese and I'll see if it changes things for me.

I'm doing that now and things aren't much more interesting then they were with the dub.

[Bullza]

Rather than just being "oh now we have to fight this guy. oh now we have to fight this guy. oh now we have to fight this guy. sorry, i think i might have spilled some characterisation on the last fight, won't happen again. now here's an even longer, even more bloated and unnecessary fight to end the arc." like Super was, GT took its time to actually do stuff with the characters and such.

Well that's pretty much what the second half of GT was. Once the Baby Saga was over there was a string of fights where they fought Frieza and Cell, then it was off to Super 17 who was barely built up, then they fought four different Shadow Dragons across five episodes then Nuova, then Eis, then Syn and then finally Omega Shenron with next to no story in between.

And since when Baby was introduced on M-2 lmao?

Since Baby was introduced....whilst they were still on the Planet M-2...

Goku simply got stronger in all those months. Ledgic was nowhere near Rildo. And Goku was about equal to Ledgic as well. He just asked him to stop holding back so he turned SSJ and trashed him. Mutchy had long range and speed. He wasn't strong because Trunks SSJ easily killed him. Sigma Force had all data about Goku that was obsolete at this point.

Got stronger from doing what? Uub would have gotten stronger as well. Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud all had a clear advantage against Goku in his Base form. Rilldo was said to be not comparable to those up till that point and yet Goku had an advantage over him without transforming.

Also Trunks kills Mutchy without Super Saiyan actually.

Blaming GT for not feeling like DBZ is the most sad argument you could give. Yeah, let's blame GT for being Dragon Ball GT and not Dragon Ball Z 2.

It should be blamed for that. Dragon Ball Z was obviously very well liked. The common sense would be to make more of the same which they did with Super which is why it has been so successful.

Dragon Ball GT tried to be its own thing, which would have been ok if it had done a good job of it but it didn't. First it tried to be like the original Dragon Ball but it was dreadful so after that failed it did try to be like Dragon Ball Z.

It completely abandoned the tone they were going for and the plot device of going around the Universe to find the Dragon Ball because they knew it was boring so they changed it into a really bad version of Dragon Ball Z with boring villains, lame fights and ugly character designs.

[ABED]

then it was off to Super 17 who was barely built up, then they fought four different Shadow Dragons across five episodes then Nuova, then Eis, then Syn and then finally Omega Shenron with next to no story in between.

What do you think a story is? Going after the different Evil Dragons IS the story.
And you don't need to always build up an antagonist. Piccolo Daimao comes out of nowhere, but it works dramatically because it's a big change in the kinds of stories DB was telling and is supposed to feel sudden and shocking. Super 17 isn't built up, but he is the build up to the next arc. Dr. Mu and Dr. Gero getting out of Hell were the result of the minus energy pouring out of the DB's.

[sunsetshimmer]

Since Baby was introduced....whilst they were still on the Planet M-2...

If this look like M-2 to you then i have a bad news. It isn't.

Got stronger from doing what? Uub would have gotten stronger as well. Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud all had a clear advantage against Goku in his Base form. Rilldo was said to be not comparable to those up till that point and yet Goku had an advantage over him without transforming.

From fighting. Uub was actually training for few months after Baby arrived. Ledgic didn't have advantage. They were equal. Mutchy as i said, had long range and high speed. Dolltaki himself stated that Mutchi has no chance against SSJ Goku in power. Rildo was very tough and couldn't be hurt without hitting his weak spot. And they didn't get any problem with him until he absorbed Pan.
Beside, he got stronger and that's it. Sigma Force had all the data but it turned out Goku was holding back. The amount of power he got is still nothing to the boost he got during travel to Namek. I'm not saying it's very logical, but DB has much worse examples than that.

Also Trunks kills Mutchy without Super Saiyan actually.

Well, that only proves that he was weak. He was just using many tricks. Power-wise, he was nothing.

It should be blamed for that. Dragon Ball Z was obviously very well liked.

Trying to copy something popular just to be popular as well is never a good thing.
I always appreciate when they try something new even if i don't like it which is why Battle of Gods saga (despite being movie retelling) to me is still the best and most original concept in Super.

Episode 22 is when Baby was introduced. Why are you laughing? That's what happened.

Yeah, but not on M-2. That's what i meant. He only appeared on M-2 once and that was in Episode 23 when he infected Rildo i tried to stop Goku, Trunks and Pan from leaving planet.

But Baby is introduced in the episode prior. Giru proving he is an ally doesn't work as the conclusion because the arc wasn't about him. The main goal of Rildo and Dr. Mu is to get the DB's and energy FOR BABY. There is no conclusion to the hunt for the DB's until Baby makes his wish. For something to be an arc, it has to have a climax and a resolution.

But the story was connected to Giru in some way. He was introduced right at the start of saga and after character development and getting trust he was revealed to traitor.
Rildo possibly didn't even know about Baby's existence. Giru said that he only heard rumors that Myuu works on new type of mutant and that every other mutant will be destroyed. Rildo thought that Myuu needs dragon balls to conquer galaxy with army of machine-mutants. That was different than actual Baby's plan. Baby wanted dragon balls to rebuild his planet. Myuu himself didn't even know that Baby is a tuffle and that he wants revenge on saiyans considering he believed that he created Baby when it was completely opposite. He believed he will use Baby to conquer galaxy.

[ABED]

It's the same planet. Episode 16-23 all take place on Planet M2. If that's not true, what planet are they on?

But the story was connected to Giru in some way.

Yeah, connected, but it's not about him. Even assuming Rildo doesn't know about Baby's existence, he's working for Dr. Mu, who does. Giru's plan was always to investigate what was going on on M2, and ultimately it was all about Baby. I don't know why you think what you wrote refutes my point. Baby is the puppet master pulling the strings. We don't know that up front, and even many of the characters don't know that. Hell, even Dr. Mu thinks he's the one that created Baby, instead of the one who was created BY Baby. It's all leading to Baby, not the revelation that Giru was an ally. That was just a plot twist.

[sunsetshimmer]

It's the same planet. Episode 16-23 all take place on Planet M2. If that's not true, what planet are they on?

But the story was connected to Giru in some way.

Yeah, connected, but it's not about him. Even assuming Rildo doesn't know about Baby's existence, he's working for Dr. Mu, who does. Giru's plan was always to investigate what was going on on M2, and ultimately it was all about Baby. I don't know why you think what you wrote refutes my point. Baby is the puppet master pulling the strings. We don't know that up front, and even many of the characters don't know that. Hell, even Dr. Mu thinks he's the one that created Baby, instead of the one who was created BY Baby. It's all leading to Baby, not the revelation that Giru was an ally. That was just a plot twist.

It was clearly shown and stated by Rildo, that he sent Trunks to Dr Myuu's planet.
I posted a picture above. That's the planet where Myuu and Baby were for entire time. I don't understand why would both of you think it's M-2?
And why would Baby return back on the same planet? They would obviously spot him. He waited for them on M-2 because they used teleporter to get back on M-2 and repair their ship so he set trap for them there.


Also, you could also say that Saiyan saga should be part of Frieza saga because Vegeta's arrival on Earth was his attempt to become immortal and kill Frieza and he continued that on Namek. Yet those are two different arcs. It doesn't really matter. They divided it on 2 arcs in GT and Baby's actual appearance is officialy start of Baby saga. And that matters more.

[ABED]

Because they aren't shown leaving the planet. How could they? Their ship was stuck on M2. At worst, we made an understandable error. You act like it's so laughable that we could make that mistake, assuming you're correct.

Also, you could also say that Saiyan saga should be part of Frieza saga because Vegeta's arrival on Earth was his attempt to become immortal and kill Frieza and he continued that on Namek. Yet those are two different arcs. It doesn't really matter. They divided it on 2 arcs in GT and Baby's actual appearance is officialy start of Baby saga. And that matters more.

And they would be wrong because the Vegeta arc has a beginning, middle, and end. Freeza's never even mentioned. Vegeta's desire for immortality went beyond killing Freeza. He wanted that goal so he could fight forever. The Dark Star DB's arc isn't an arc because it doesn't have a climax or an end.

Yes, it is logical to say Baby's arc begins when he's first shown - episode 22. Why would you think it's episode 23? See how obnoxious and condescending that is? THere's no reason for anyone to be this snarky over something as trivial as GT. If either of us is wrong, fine. We learned something. In any event, it makes WAY more sense to at the very least say that the Baby arc begins on episode 16. Everything from that point is leading towards the team discovering Baby.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

It's mediocre, it was at its best from around episode 25-40, at that point it was probably a 6/10. At its lowest probably a 4/10 so overall perhaps 5/10. Any comparison to Dragon Ball Super to me is absolutely laughable.

If this is another of the "GT was worse than I thought" threads, I cant agree with the basis here.

There are plenty of ways to compare GT outside of the surface presentation of it, because its flaws are there, they're undeniable and the series never had the headcanon gymnastics that is applied to Super just to make promotional sense of them. By simply rating the arcs as they are, Super's really wouldn't be any better. A pointless Tournament over something ptty that amounted to nothing, a Villain arc with no build up at all to the main villain, inconsistent places of tension, bad characterizatoion and a terrible ending. Then the last, another bigger Tournament, with a mess of a structure, no story and no villain with an in-organic ending. Its very easy to rate Super by the same standards and argue it being equally terrible off just that alone.

IEven though Super has its flaws as well it is a drastically superior show in almost every single way. Super at least feels like a continuation of Z and GT doesn't really. Super always had the main characters around and GT didn't for long portions. Super has the better story, animation, music, original characters, humour and fight scenes. GT.....maybe the better ending if I had to give it something.

Its only better than GT in areas that GT did not deliver in. Generally just the fights and comedy. Thats it. Super feeling like a continuation of Z is itself debatable and arguments can be made against that conclusion. It doesnt really do anything major with the characters since the Buu arc. Most of the characters do nothing, and outside of fighting Goku does nothing. Again, your conclusion sounds pretty generalized because of the subjectivity to the categories you applied. How can you say Super has better original characters? How do you compare that to GT when the characters introduced so much as just exist? Most aren't even plot devices besides Zeno. Jiren is really no more interesting then Legic.

Humor again, needs more specific comparisons. GT recycled jokes from DB in the Black star arc which was not very good. Super had jokes that forced characters to either act out of character, cheap and arguably jarring real-world pop-culture references (Godtube, Abused food-porn, Broly references, Trunks learning Mafuba off a tutorial video, Goku's cellphone) or really exaggerating the stupidity of the moments etc. To them reusing old jokes from DB themselves like Bulma's bad seduction attempts, or the Roshi stale jokes of Roshi's perversion-played straight. Whether the jokes are funny or not is irrelevant. What they come from is what Super does not do well. I could argue Goku eating the Dragonball to copy Omega and protect it, Or Pan not wanting too see Kid Goku's naked fit his character much more, than Goku busting threw a wall obsessed with finding Whis like a hyperactive puppy.

Music? I'll give it to super for BGM, but GT had its own theme scores that in tune are arguably as iconic as Cha-La-Head-Cha-La. Super's first theme song was bland and vocals were flat. (again an opinion), and the BGM did not get good until the Zamasu arc. Placement and tunes in the BoG arc were repetitious and terrible. And what about Goku's early theme people hated? Come on. Super's music even in the TOP was repetitive here and there but it only got good tracks later in.

Story? GT did have a story, it had snippets of it within the ac plots, even if not always coherent. We know the story of Baby and how it applies to Goku, and Pan's response to it when she confronted Oozaru Baby. We know the story of 17 (even though the only aspect of story really came from 18's part near the end), and we know the story of the Dragonballs and why Goku person protects the 4 star ball in the Dragon arc. In Super I cant really see how any of the plots really connected with anything from the characters in U7, There weren't any stories. There were scenarios for fights. Thats it.

[Robo4900]

It's mediocre, it was at its best from around episode 25-40, at that point it was probably a 6/10. At its lowest probably a 4/10 so overall perhaps 5/10. Any comparison to Dragon Ball Super to me is absolutely laughable.

If this is another of the "GT was worse than I thought" threads, I cant agree with the basis here.

There are plenty of ways to compare GT outside of the surface presentation of it, because its flaws are there, they're undeniable and the series never had the headcanon gymnastics that is applied to Super just to make promotional sense of them. By simply rating the arcs as they are, Super's really wouldn't be any better. A pointless Tournament over something ptty that amounted to nothing, a Villain arc with no build up at all to the main villain, inconsistent places of tension, bad characterizatoion and a terrible ending. Then the last, another bigger Tournament, with a mess of a structure, no story and no villain with an in-organic ending. Its very easy to rate Super by the same standards and argue it being equally terrible off just that alone.

IEven though Super has its flaws as well it is a drastically superior show in almost every single way. Super at least feels like a continuation of Z and GT doesn't really. Super always had the main characters around and GT didn't for long portions. Super has the better story, animation, music, original characters, humour and fight scenes. GT.....maybe the better ending if I had to give it something.

Its only better than GT in areas that GT did not deliver in. Generally just the fights and comedy. Thats it. Super feeling like a continuation of Z is itself debatable and arguments can be made against that conclusion. It doesnt really do anything major with the characters since the Buu arc. Most of the characters do nothing, and outside of fighting Goku does nothing. Again, your conclusion sounds pretty generalized because of the subjectivity to the categories you applied. How can you say Super has better original characters? How do you compare that to GT when the characters introduced so much as just exist? Most aren't even plot devices besides Zeno. Jiren is really no more interesting then Legic.

Humor again, needs more specific comparisons. GT recycled jokes from DB in the Black star arc which was not very good. Super had jokes that forced characters to either act out of character, cheap and arguably jarring real-world pop-culture references (Godtube, Abused food-porn, Broly references, Trunks learning Mafuba off a tutorial video, Goku's cellphone) or really exaggerating the stupidity of the moments etc. To them reusing old jokes from DB themselves like Bulma's bad seduction attempts, or the Roshi stale jokes of Roshi's perversion-played straight. Whether the jokes are funny or not is irrelevant. What they come from is what Super does not do well. I could argue Goku eating the Dragonball to copy Omega and protect it, Or Pan not wanting too see Kid Goku's naked fit his character much more, than Goku busting threw a wall obsessed with finding Whis like a hyperactive puppy.

Music? I'll give it to super for BGM, but GT had its own theme scores that in tune are arguably as iconic as Cha-La-Head-Cha-La. Super's first theme song was bland and vocals were flat. (again an opinion), and the BGM did not get good until the Zamasu arc. Placement and tunes in the BoG arc were repetitious and terrible. And what about Goku's early theme people hated? Come on. Super's music even in the TOP was repetitive here and there but it only got good tracks later in.

Story? GT did have a story, it had snippets of it within the ac plots, even if not always coherent. We know the story of Baby and how it applies to Goku, and Pan's response to it when she confronted Oozaru Baby. We know the story of 17 (even though the only aspect of story really came from 18's part near the end), and we know the story of the Dragonballs and why Goku person protects the 4 star ball in the Dragon arc. In Super I cant really see how any of the plots really connected with anything from the characters in U7, There weren't any stories. There were scenarios for fights. Thats it.

Aside from the fact I consider GT's music to be the best in the franchise, I agree with basically all of this. Well said on all counts, man.

[Bullza]

If this is another of the "GT was worse than I thought" threads, I cant agree with the basis here.

No it's not in particular. The show is neither better or worse than I thought actually. Originally I did think the Shadow Dragon Saga and Omega Shenron was better the Baby Saga and Baby but after watching it again that's reversed now.

By simply rating the arcs as they are, Super's really wouldn't be any better.

I definitely don't agree with that. Even the opening Beerus Saga is far more enjoyable than anything from GT. The first three sagas of Super weren't great but it was mostly entertaining enough. GT was never an entertaining show, it was ok at points but it was never fun to watch.

Its only better than GT in areas that GT did not deliver in. Generally just the fights and comedy. Thats it.

The animation is far better in Super. The music is better which you said already. The fighting is the main thing people even watch the show for so the fights being better is a big advantage.

It expanded the series more, other Universes, God's of Destruction, Angels, Super Dragon Balls, Sadala, Zeno, Zuno, the Time Ring etc.

The original characters that it introduced are a hell of a lot better, there were no original characters in GT that became well liked later on. With Super they have Hit, Goku Black, Zamasu, Jiren and more that are plenty popular. Even to further extend on that GT made people hate Pan whereas Super has made Android 17 more popular than he's ever been. That might apply to Frieza as well.

Most of the characters do nothing, and outside of fighting Goku does nothing.

Super at least gave these characters some key moments here and there. Gohan had time spent on him in the Golden Frieza Saga, they later built him back up, he took part in the Tournament and had some big fights there. In GT he doesn't do anything, he's part of the fodder that gets swatted aside like Goten.

Vegeta was obviously significant all throughout Super as opposed to only being significant at the end of GT.

Piccolo frequently appeared, had his fight with Frost, took part in Gohan's training and had some fights in the Tournament. In GT the only thing he does is open the portal for Goku to get out of Hell, he's hardly in it.

Krillin and Android 18 aren't in GT much and only have one key moment each. Yamcha, Tien and Chiaotzu have no dialogue in the show. Frieza and Android 17 were main characters by the end of Super whereas Frieza was treated as a joke in GT and Android 17 was in a couple episodes.

Master Roshi they did more with in Super than in Z whereas he does nothing at all in GT and barely appeared.

[WittyUsername]

Looking back at GT, one thing I can definitively say was an all around disturbing idea was everything to do with Dolltaki. I still don’t know if we were supposed to be creeped out by him (and if we were, they succeeded just a little too well), or if we were supposed to find him lusting after a 10 year old girl to be humorous...

[PFM18]

The animation is far better in Super. The music is better which you said already. The fighting is the main thing people even watch the show for so the fights being better is a big advantage.

It expanded the series more, other Universes, God's of Destruction, Angels, Super Dragon Balls, Sadala, Zeno, Zuno, the Time Ring etc.

The original characters that it introduced are a hell of a lot better, there were no original characters in GT that became well liked later on. With Super they have Hit, Goku Black, Zamasu, Jiren and more that are plenty popular. Even to further extend on that GT made people hate Pan whereas Super has made Android 17 more popular than he's ever been. That might apply to Frieza as well.

I think this sums of my feelings on Super compared to GT pretty well. More world building, better characters, better fights etc.

It's mediocre, it was at its best from around episode 25-40, at that point it was probably a 6/10. At its lowest probably a 4/10 so overall perhaps 5/10. Any comparison to Dragon Ball Super to me is absolutely laughable.

If this is another of the "GT was worse than I thought" threads, I cant agree with the basis here.

There are plenty of ways to compare GT outside of the surface presentation of it, because its flaws are there, they're undeniable and the series never had the headcanon gymnastics that is applied to Super just to make promotional sense of them. By simply rating the arcs as they are, Super's really wouldn't be any better. A pointless Tournament over something ptty that amounted to nothing, a Villain arc with no build up at all to the main villain, inconsistent places of tension, bad characterizatoion and a terrible ending. Then the last, another bigger Tournament, with a mess of a structure, no story and no villain with an in-organic ending. Its very easy to rate Super by the same standards and argue it being equally terrible off just that alone.

IEven though Super has its flaws as well it is a drastically superior show in almost every single way. Super at least feels like a continuation of Z and GT doesn't really. Super always had the main characters around and GT didn't for long portions. Super has the better story, animation, music, original characters, humour and fight scenes. GT.....maybe the better ending if I had to give it something.

Its only better than GT in areas that GT did not deliver in. Generally just the fights and comedy. Thats it. Super feeling like a continuation of Z is itself debatable and arguments can be made against that conclusion. It doesnt really do anything major with the characters since the Buu arc. Most of the characters do nothing, and outside of fighting Goku does nothing. Again, your conclusion sounds pretty generalized because of the subjectivity to the categories you applied. How can you say Super has better original characters? How do you compare that to GT when the characters introduced so much as just exist? Most aren't even plot devices besides Zeno. Jiren is really no more interesting then Legic.

Humor again, needs more specific comparisons. GT recycled jokes from DB in the Black star arc which was not very good. Super had jokes that forced characters to either act out of character, cheap and arguably jarring real-world pop-culture references (Godtube, Abused food-porn, Broly references, Trunks learning Mafuba off a tutorial video, Goku's cellphone) or really exaggerating the stupidity of the moments etc. To them reusing old jokes from DB themselves like Bulma's bad seduction attempts, or the Roshi stale jokes of Roshi's perversion-played straight. Whether the jokes are funny or not is irrelevant. What they come from is what Super does not do well. I could argue Goku eating the Dragonball to copy Omega and protect it, Or Pan not wanting too see Kid Goku's naked fit his character much more, than Goku busting threw a wall obsessed with finding Whis like a hyperactive puppy.

Music? I'll give it to super for BGM, but GT had its own theme scores that in tune are arguably as iconic as Cha-La-Head-Cha-La. Super's first theme song was bland and vocals were flat. (again an opinion), and the BGM did not get good until the Zamasu arc. Placement and tunes in the BoG arc were repetitious and terrible. And what about Goku's early theme people hated? Come on. Super's music even in the TOP was repetitive here and there but it only got good tracks later in.

Story? GT did have a story, it had snippets of it within the ac plots, even if not always coherent. We know the story of Baby and how it applies to Goku, and Pan's response to it when she confronted Oozaru Baby. We know the story of 17 (even though the only aspect of story really came from 18's part near the end), and we know the story of the Dragonballs and why Goku person protects the 4 star ball in the Dragon arc. In Super I cant really see how any of the plots really connected with anything from the characters in U7, There weren't any stories. There were scenarios for fights. Thats it.

Aside from the fact I consider GT's music to be the best in the franchise, I agree with basically all of this. Well said on all counts, man.

Ok so I am genuinely interested what the character development/characterizations that you liked in GT. We discussed last time Mr. Satan's development which was reasonable enough, and you discussed Vegeta's "development" in GT and I think we kind of agreed to disagree there. You brought up Satan's development that I didn't realize and it seemed fairly interesting and I'll have to pay more attention to it the next time I watch it. But aside from that, what is there exactly? Like as far as characterization and character development?

I am asking because I genuinely want to know because I can't think of any legitimate examples of the aforementioned elements of the story. I am not trying to rip on GT or spout how great Super is, since we kind of stand on opposite sides of the fence and trying to convince one another of our stances is kind of an exercise in futility. I'm genuinely curious I guess is all I am trying to say.

[Robo4900]

Ok so I am genuinely interested what the character development/characterizations that you liked in GT. We discussed last time Mr. Satan's development which was reasonable enough, and you discussed Vegeta's "development" in GT and I think we kind of agreed to disagree there. You brought up Satan's development that I didn't realize and it seemed fairly interesting and I'll have to pay more attention to it the next time I watch it. But aside from that, what is there exactly? Like as far as characterization and character development?

I am asking because I genuinely want to know because I can't think of any legitimate examples of the aforementioned elements of the story. I am not trying to rip on GT or spout how great Super is, since we kind of stand on opposite sides of the fence and trying to convince one another of our stances is kind of an exercise in futility. I'm genuinely curious I guess is all I am trying to say.

I mean, as mentioned there's Mr. Satan, Boo, Oob's thing, there's the Vegeta thing, and there's the whole thing about Piccolo... There's also the development of Pan, and her and Goku's relationship rekindling after not seeing each-other for 5 years, which primarily develops over the course of the first 15 episodes of the run, but comes to a real head when Qi Xing Long shows up in the Evil Dragons arc...

Trunks gets his minor arc where he's bored with his office life, so he's sent into space, where he gets up to crazy shenanigans, then decides to opt out of the future adventures, returning to his regular desk life...

There's also the parts where the characters whose arcs had come to a close in Z are shown in various short periods to be getting on with their lives well, which serves as a nice little thing to cap off their past development; it's not going to force a character into the forefront to show "look at how much #17's situation has changed. there's no real big points to make here, or real revelations to make about who he is as a person, but look how different his life is.", it's that they get the various parts where we need to just see general people living out their lives, and using those as opportunities to show, say, Kuririn, #18, and their daughter living peacefully in the wake of their previously somewhat chaotic lives. There's not much character development to be seen here in this specific stuff, but it sort of places a cap on the development they've previously received, and shows us how they're doing 5 years down the line. Ultimately, that's the thing you want out of a show set 5 years later, you want to see how they're doing, and in GT's case, since the whole point is that the franchise is coming to an end, this is all stuff that shows everyone's settled/settling down, and things are generally pretty chill. And within that, the characters all act exactly as they should act; they're not going out of their way to get involved in the plot, they're just going about their lives, and we get to see little pieces of it. It's nice, and it really helps add the human element to the Baby arc.

This is 64 episodes of TV which I haven't watched through in a little while, so I'm sure there are tons of things slipping my mind, but these are the first things that occur to me.

[sunsetshimmer]

The original characters that it introduced are a hell of a lot better, there were no original characters in GT that became well liked later on. With Super they have Hit, Goku Black, Zamasu, Jiren and more that are plenty popular.

Zamasu/Goku Black = Baby/Baby Vegeta, and Baby is also pretty popular and liked character very often considered one of the best villains in franchise
Jiren liked? By who? I can't see him being more popular than Omega Shenron who alone is boring villain.
Hit? There is Nuova Shenron and he is also liked by community.
Ledgic is also overall considered good character by many, but he was very minor so he obviously isn't popular like Hit who had more screentime.
Pan is also very popular. She has many haters, but she also has tons of lovers in community.

Besides, let's wait few years. Super is new so obviously everything is overhyped no matter if its good or bad. I am 100% sure that the only reason people will remember Jiren will be that he fought with Ultra Instinct. Because there is nothing else to remember about him. Omega Shenron at least had unique techniques. Jiren doesn't have anything. He is arguably the most boring and worst written major villain in franchise.

Super has made Android 17 more popular than he's ever been. That might apply to Frieza as well.

Don't forgt about Future Trunks. It's another character Super reused...i mean made more popular. Thank you DBS. Without you i wouldn't remember that Frieza, #17 and F. Trunks exist. They were so underrated and unpopular characters that DBS risked its rating by bringing them back to spotlight.

Frieza was treated as a joke in GT

I guess that's because he is a joke at this point.

You can choose between two:
-Create new villain
-Bring back old and most overused villain and give him the most bullshit boost to make him relevant

Let's guess which Super picked and which GT picked giving short Frieza cameo for comedic relief instead of giving him entire arc because it's easier.

[Robo4900]

Besides, let's wait few years. Super is new so obviously everything is overhyped no matter if its good or bad. I am 100% sure that the only reason people will remember Jiren will be that he fought with Ultra Instinct. Because there is nothing else to remember about him. Omega Shenron at least had unique techniques. Jiren doesn't have anything. He is arguably the most boring and worst written major villain in franchise.

I would like to draw special attention to this for anyone who isn't thinking about this already.

Initial reactions to media never stick around exactly as they are. When Empire Strikes Back was released, it was widely criticised for ruining the franchise, being too different, characterising everyone wrong, etc. Basically, all the same things people criticise Last Jedi for. And yet, nowadays, Empire is considered a cinematic masterpiece.
Conversely, Return Of The Jedi was praised as the greatest Star Wars film of the three, absolutely celebrated in every aspect except for its handling of Boba Fett, which a handful of people still criticise to this day, and yet general reception of Jedi now is that it's a rather disappointing conclusion overall with various narrative issues, and generally just falls flat in comparison to the previous two. No one really cares about Boba Fett anymore, but the various other aspects of the film are massively criticised. If you want a much more extreme counter-example than Jedi, try looking into what critics thought of Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones on launch; I'm sure you'll be quite surprised...

So, apply this to Super; initial reactions are, let's face it, very clearly influenced by hype. Nothing wrong with that, enjoying something is always a positive, but in 10 years, when people look back on this series, there will be no hype for it to ride on, so it may very well have soured to an extent. Maybe the time will bring about new layers of genius within it, and it will continue to be celebrated for all time as a perfect sequel to Toriyama's original Dragon Ball story. Or, maybe time will be unkind to Super, and render it an embarassing artifact of anime trends of the late 2010s.
Which will it be? Unless you can travel in time, you can't know. I would predict the latter, because of how strongly I believe it thrives on hype, and how thin I consider the actual contents to be, but this is something to consider as we discuss the show; the fact the show's still very new will have a massive impact on how we see it.

You can choose between two:
-Create new villain
-Bring back old and most overused villain and give him the most bullshit boost to make him relevant

Let's guess which Super picked and which GT picked giving short Frieza cameo for comedic relief instead of giving him entire arc because it's easier.

Glad I'm not the only one who sees the different ways the shows used Freeza this way.

[Grimlock]

Thank you DBS. Without you i wouldn't remember that Frieza, #17 and F. Trunks exist. They were so underrated and unpopular characters that DBS risked its rating by bringing them back to spotlight.

While you may be correct for Android 17 and arguably for Freeza, you're entirely wrong for Trunks. Here enter the games, the very reason why Future Trunks was brought back; his popularity and heavily constant appearances in Xenoverse and Heroes (the latter being the most popular Dragon Ball game in Japan) were certainly the reasons why Toriyama wanted to bring him back, or at least they made the majority of the contribution for Toriyama to decide to use him again at that point.

From 2010s, Future Trunks popularity only increased, slowly in the beginning because Dragon Ball Online unfortunately wasn't released in many countries, but it increased nonetheless. Then, in 2014, well... We all know what rendered to Trunks character from that year forward.

[Bullza]

Zamasu/Goku Black = Baby/Baby Vegeta, and Baby is also pretty popular and liked character very often considered one of the best villains in franchise
Jiren liked? By who? I can't see him being more popular than Omega Shenron who alone is boring villain.

Goku Black wasn't much like Baby Vegeta, they possessed a body but otherwise they're very different. Either way Goku Black is a very popular character now. Baby was never popular, he was considered the best villain in GT but considered how poor the villains were in that show then that isn't saying much at all.

Besides, let's wait few years. Super is new so obviously everything is overhyped no matter if its good or bad. I am 100% sure that the only reason people will remember Jiren will be that he fought with Ultra Instinct. Because there is nothing else to remember about him. Omega Shenron at least had unique techniques. Jiren doesn't have anything. He is arguably the most boring and worst written major villain in franchise.

If they're popular now then there isn't much to suggest they wouldn't be eventually. Hit debuted over 2 years ago and he's still popular. Jiren isn't that interesting a character but you don't particularly have to be.

Broly is the most popular villain after Frieza and he's even more boring than Jiren. Omega Shenron has a fairly good character design unlike all the other Shadow Dragons but he doesn't have an interesting personality, so real memorable moments and he was let down a little when he was made a joke of by Gogeta.

Don't forgt about Future Trunks. It's another character Super reused...i mean made more popular. Thank you DBS. Without you i wouldn't remember that Frieza, #17 and F. Trunks exist. They were so underrated and unpopular characters that DBS risked its rating by bringing them back to spotlight.

You seem to be going a completely different route to what I was trying to say here for some reason. Frieza and Trunks were always really popular to begin with Android 17 was never that popular. He never had much significance and was overshadowed by other characters. Super has made him far more popular.

Let's guess which Super picked and which GT picked giving short Frieza cameo for comedic relief instead of giving him entire arc because it's easier.

Well GT had an entire Saga where they had Android 17 as a villain so...

[PsionicWarrior]

Thank you DBS. Without you i wouldn't remember that Frieza, #17 and F. Trunks exist. They were so underrated and unpopular characters that DBS risked its rating by bringing them back to spotlight.

Freeza underrated? Seriously? lol
Both Freeza and Trunks have always been immensely popular, the only one from those you mentioned that was forgotten in the depths of DB mythology was 17, unless you were a pre-teen girl when you first saw him on the air, then you'd even remember him lol

[sunsetshimmer]

he was considered the best villain in GT but considered how poor the villains were in that show then that isn't saying much at all.

Zamasu is considered the best villain in DBS but considering he is the only villain then that isn't saying much either

Android 17 was never that popular

He was still quite popular considering how hyped people were then they heard about 17 appearing in Super. And even before that you could see people wondering if he appear in Super at some point.

Well GT had an entire Saga where they had Android 17 as a villain so...

Yeah, but there are some major differences that makes this use less lazy. First of all, this saga was extremely short. Also, 17 was overall only a minor antagonist in DBZ, while Frieza is the most overused villain in franchise, that got entire arc for him in DBZ and got the longest fight in anime. Not to mention Cooler and Frost being Frieza clones, especially Frost.
Also, Super 17 obviously had more original and fresh design. He looked different, yet you could still tell that he is 17. He also got new skills. Frieza got recolored to gold and that's it. Also, Super 17 trashed pretty much everyone and lost only because he couldn't kill his own sister. Golden Frieza pretty much appeared only to get wrecked. His entire return was rehash of him being killed by Trunks. He got improved, got army, went to Earth for revenge, his army got destroyed then he got destroyed. Everything hapened in a place where he arrived again.